The EU debate - Part II

[PINKIE]

There is nothing pragmatic or flexible about Corbyn. He's an outdated dogmatist. He's not interested in what the voting public want. Like all his ilk, he wants to tell them what's good for them.

And that is why he's unelectable.

Can you expand on this please. What exactly has Corbyn said that is dogmatic and outdated and how can you demonstrate that he's not interested in what the voting public want ? What has he said that demonstrates he is 'telling them what's good for them' ?

Genuinely interested to know the specifics of how you've reached this conclusion, or are you just accepting the mantra peddled by Murdoch media ?

 

[Tobes]

Because 172 MP's have decided to betray the leader and have tried to split the party in two.

That is the reason that the Labour party are in a mess.

And why did they 'betray' the leader?

I'll answer that one for you - because they'd concluded he wasn't a leader.

78% of his own MP's think he should **** off, what do you think the average middle ground voter would conclude about his leadership skills and thus his suitability for the role of PM from that?

The level of delusion from some of the grass roots Labour support on this issue is frightening tbh.

 

[NSIS]

Can you expand on this please. What exactly has Corbyn said that is dogmatic and outdated and how can you demonstrate that he's not interested in what the voting public want ? What has he said that demonstrates he is 'telling them what's good for them' ?

Genuinely interested to know the specifics of how you've reached this conclusion, or are you just accepting the mantra peddled by Murdoch media ?

I don't accept anybody's mantra. Corbyn is a product of the '60's and '70's. He still follows that outdated dogma. I remember the chaos caused by some of the policies followed by Corbyn's ilk.

He shows no interest in asking the public for their opinions. He follows his dogma to the letter and hopes to impose that on others. He defied his own party's whip no less than 428 times in their time in power. That alone tells you what he puts first!

He's also a unilateral disarmer, something that's highly dangerous in today's world.

 

[PINKIE]

And why did they 'betray' the leader?

I'll answer that one for you - because they'd concluded he wasn't a leader.

78% of his own MP's think he should **** off, what do you think the average middle ground voter would conclude about his leadership skills and thus his suitability for the role of PM from that?

The level of delusion from some of the grass roots Labour support on this issue is frightening tbh.

Because they are treacherous ****s interested in a Tory-lite agenda. Fine if that's what you want, but not for me thanks.

 

[Tobes]

Because they are treacherous ****s interested in a Tory-lite agenda. Fine if that's what you want, but not for me thanks.

Firstly I hate the lazy stereo typing of any non far left Labour supporter as 'Tory lite', I think it's both patronising and inaccurate.

As for 'treacherous', how about simply realists? 78% of the PLP can't all be back stabbing snakes ffs, they just don't believe in the man as a leader, but it's easier for his supporters to gloss over this simple fact, with a cover all of some grand conspiracy orchestrated by "tories" within the ranks.

 

[Tobes]

One last question on this one for the Corbyn supporters.

If Corbyn and his left wing mantra is what the working class is crying out for, then why have the Labour industrial heartlands migrated so heavily to the right and notably UKIP

 

[PINKIE]

I don't accept anybody's mantra. Corbyn is a product of the '60's and '70's. He still follows that outdated dogma. I remember the chaos caused by some of the policies followed by Corbyn's ilk.

He shows no interest in asking the public for their opinions. He follows his dogma to the letter and hopes to impose that on others. He defied his own party's whip no less than 428 times in their time in power. That alone tells you what he puts first!

He's also a unilateral disarmer, something that's highly dangerous in today's world.

These are the facts about what Corbyn actually stands for:

Higher taxation for the super rich
Ending tax breaks for big corporations
Maximum wage cap for top executives
Ending University tuition fees
Launching a National education service based on NHS principles, free at the point of access
Quantitative easing to build schools, houses and transport infrastructure
Universal childcare
Renationalising energy companies to bring down consumer prices
Rent controls in the highest priced cities
Involving party members in policy making
Publicly funded NHS, ending privatisation through the back door
Renationalise the railways, bringing them back under public control
Equal pay for men and women
Protection and expansion of workers rights

What are the 'outdated and dogmatic' policies in that list ?

The one area that I am at odds with Corbyn is on withdrawing from NATO. I agree with him about Trident, that is a massive waste of money and just feeds the paranoia. I agree that we need better dialogue and diplomacy on the international stage (guaranteed now we have Boris....) rather than simply arming ourselves to the teeth.

This is what Corbyn had to say about bombing Syria two years ago:
I voted against bombing Syria when the enemy was the Assad government. I oppose bombing Syria when Isil is the target for the very same reason – it will be the innocent Syrians who will suffer – exacerbating the refugee crisis. Cutting off the supply of money and arms to Isil from “some of our supposed allies in the region” would be a more effective way of tackling Isil

 

[PINKIE]

One last question on this one for the Corbyn supporters.

If Corbyn and his left wing mantra is what the working class is crying out for, then why have the Labour industrial heartlands migrated so heavily to the right and notably UKIP

Probably for the same reasons those people voted to leave the EU on the back of utter BS peddled about £350m per week for the NHS and 'getting our country back'.

 

[PINKIE]

Firstly I hate the lazy stereo typing of any non far left Labour supporter as 'Tory lite', I think it's both patronising and inaccurate.

As for 'treacherous', how about simply realists? 78% of the PLP can't all be back stabbing snakes ffs, they just don't believe in the man as a leader, but it's easier for his supporters to gloss over this simple fact, with a cover all of some grand conspiracy orchestrated by "tories" within the ranks.

Any MP who stand for Austerity is a proponent of a Tory-lite agenda. Owen Smith abstained from the Tory welfare bill, one of the cruellest and most punishing pieces of legislation against the poor in decades, whilst they simultaneously gave tax breaks to the rich.

The Labour party leader is elected by the party membership, not the PLP. They were out to get Corbyn from day one and they have betrayed the party and its members, whilst allowing the Tories to get off scott free.

 

[BobbyD]

One last question on this one for the Corbyn supporters.

If Corbyn and his left wing mantra is what the working class is crying out for, then why have the Labour industrial heartlands migrated so heavily to the right and notably UKIP

Correct me if i'm wrong, when you mention people voting for UKIP, is that data from the 2015 general elections? When wallace was in power and not corbyn?

I don't think Corbyn should be removed, the labour members voted for him to lead them.

 

[BobbyD]

Any MP who stand for Austerity is a proponent of a Tory-lite agenda. Owen Smith abstained from the Tory welfare bill, one of the cruellest and most punishing pieces of legislation against the poor in decades, whilst they simultaneously gave tax breaks to the rich.

The Labour party leader is elected by the party membership, not the PLP. They were out to get Corbyn from day one and they have betrayed the party and its members, whilst allowing the Tories to get off scott free.

Saying this, not sure i agree with no austerity. I think they should have implemented certain austerity plans without some of the tax cuts (although less tax for lower earners was fine).

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

He divides the party! That's why it's tearing itself apart!...

Actually the coup was set up 6 months ago by a PR company called Portland House, who Alastair Darling is a director, as is an ex-Head of Comms for Sky and another ex-Head of Comms for Labour (or some similar title). It was orchestrated to occur immediately after the referendum.

I agree there's a split, but it isn't Corbyn creating it. The party members and support have shown who they support, it's the 172 MPs who refuse to listen to their own party members and instead are trying to smear their own party and use undemocratic and potentially illegal manoeuvres to remove a leader who has the biggest mandate in the history of British politics - he is also similar to current international trends, where centre-left and full-left leaning parties have had huge popularity from the USA, Greece, Spain and even Austria.

Corbyn offered MPs of all different political leanings cabinet positions, he has offered to listen to them all, he has given them free votes on certain issues. Instead they have either refused to serve him or their party members, back stabbed him, attacked him rather than the Tories, made up false accusations of bullying, homophobic abuse, Tory-infiltration and other smears, and organised a undemocratic coup against their own parties wishes.

But of course it's Corbyn splitting the party

It's like talking to a Sun editorial it really is...

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

There's a reason that Labour was electable for 13 years! Like it or not, Blair was a great salesman. You may think of it as 'Tory lite' - and to some extent you're right. But Blair was smart enough to know what people would vote for. He gave it to them, and won by a landslide.

There is nothing pragmatic or flexible about Corbyn. He's an outdated dogmatist. He's not interested in what the voting public want. Like all his ilk, he wants to tell them what's good for them.

And that is why he's unelectable.

He actually was really smart and realised he needed the press on his side, so he gave Murdoch and others much more press freedom, weakened monopoly regulations and began privatising the NHS. He then used his massive charisma with this good press to win over any swing voters. He and Darling were very clever and very good political strategists (I mean look at this coup for a start).

Cameron also gave the press greater freedom, allowed even greater monopolies in the media, has began privatising the BBC (much to the delight of Sky/Murdoch) but he had nowhere near the charisma of Blair - though the destruction of Libya was nowhere near as bad as Iraq and Afghanistan.

You are, again, in correct about Corbyn. I do believe people wanted peace in N Ireland, the end of apartheid, equal marriage rights for LGBT people. But he also listens to people and brings on board their ideas. However the great thing about him is that he won't just bend to a few vested-interest MPs or the Mainstream Media, he will do what is right for the country.

 

[Tobes]

Correct me if i'm wrong, when you mention people voting for UKIP, is that data from the 2015 general elections? When wallace was in power and not corbyn?

No, I based it on current data.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

 

[Tobes]

Any MP who stand for Austerity is a proponent of a Tory-lite agenda. Owen Smith abstained from the Tory welfare bill, one of the cruellest and most punishing pieces of legislation against the poor in decades, whilst they simultaneously gave tax breaks to the rich.

The Labour party leader is elected by the party membership, not the PLP. They were out to get Corbyn from day one and they have betrayed the party and its members, whilst allowing the Tories to get off scott free.

Get your facts right, the Labour leadership recommended a complete abstention when the Bill had it's second reading.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Get your facts right, the Labour leadership recommended a complete abstention when the Bill had it's second reading.

Yes it was nice to know they were fight for us

 

[Deleted #]

Jeremy Corbyn wants equal pay for men and women?

What a cock

 

[Tobes]

Yes it was nice to know they were fight for us

There was aspects of that bill that weren't objectionable though, like the benefit cap at £23k for example, which Labour supported, hence the abstention.

 

[NSIS]

Actually the coup was set up 6 months ago by a PR company called Portland House, who Alastair Darling is a director, as is an ex-Head of Comms for Sky and another ex-Head of Comms for Labour (or some similar title). It was orchestrated to occur immediately after the referendum.

I agree there's a split, but it isn't Corbyn creating it. The party members and support have shown who they support, it's the 172 MPs who refuse to listen to their own party members and instead are trying to smear their own party and use undemocratic and potentially illegal manoeuvres to remove a leader who has the biggest mandate in the history of British politics - he is also similar to current international trends, where centre-left and full-left leaning parties have had huge popularity from the USA, Greece, Spain and even Austria.

Corbyn offered MPs of all different political leanings cabinet positions, he has offered to listen to them all, he has given them free votes on certain issues. Instead they have either refused to serve him or their party members, back stabbed him, attacked him rather than the Tories, made up false accusations of bullying, homophobic abuse, Tory-infiltration and other smears, and organised a undemocratic coup against their own parties wishes.

But of course it's Corbyn splitting the party

It's like talking to a Sun editorial it really is...

Sorry mate, you can chuck all the accusations you want about Murdoch & The Sun. The facts are that almost 80% of his PLP want him out - that's a ****load of traitors!! Or, maybe it's because they can see what most of the rest of us can see, that they zero chance of ever forming a Gvt with Corbyn as their leader.

 

[NSIS]

These are the facts about what Corbyn actually stands for:

Higher taxation for the super rich
Ending tax breaks for big corporations
Maximum wage cap for top executives
Ending University tuition fees
Launching a National education service based on NHS principles, free at the point of access
Quantitative easing to build schools, houses and transport infrastructure
Universal childcare
Renationalising energy companies to bring down consumer prices
Rent controls in the highest priced cities
Involving party members in policy making
Publicly funded NHS, ending privatisation through the back door
Renationalise the railways, bringing them back under public control
Equal pay for men and women
Protection and expansion of workers rights

What are the 'outdated and dogmatic' policies in that list ?

The one area that I am at odds with Corbyn is on withdrawing from NATO. I agree with him about Trident, that is a massive waste of money and just feeds the paranoia. I agree that we need better dialogue and diplomacy on the international stage (guaranteed now we have Boris....) rather than simply arming ourselves to the teeth.

This is what Corbyn had to say about bombing Syria two years ago:
I voted against bombing Syria when the enemy was the Assad government. I oppose bombing Syria when Isil is the target for the very same reason – it will be the innocent Syrians who will suffer – exacerbating the refugee crisis. Cutting off the supply of money and arms to Isil from “some of our supposed allies in the region” would be a more effective way of tackling Isil

And who's going to pay for all this?? And please don't tell me 'the rich' will pay. Healey tried that 40yrs ago ( just before he had to call the IMF in to stop the country going bankrupt). Guess what, the rich didn't stay around to get super taxed - they ****ed off elsewhere!....