The EU debate - Part II

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Archers Road said:
Which policies are they then? Examples please.

Politics in the real world is all about compromise; it's the art of the possible. Which is why the doctrinaire student politics of Corbyn is fine in a protest movement but useless in the leadership of a party who would like to govern.

Furthermore, the absolute conviction of idealists who refuse to accept they are anything other than 100% right on %100 of the issues, is pretty sinister. It's what the far left has in common with fascism (that and a tendency to conspiracy theories and anti-semitism).
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Exactly! <applause>
 
Archers Road said:
Which policies are they then? Examples please.

Politics in the real world is all about compromise; it's the art of the possible. Which is why the doctrinaire student politics of Corbyn is fine in a protest movement but useless in the leadership of a party who would like to govern.

Furthermore, the absolute conviction of idealists who refuse to accept they are anything other than 100% right on %100 of the issues, is pretty sinister. It's what the far left has in common with fascism (that and a tendency to conspiracy theories and anti-semitism).
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I think Corbyn is great but he needs to get party agreed policies in place instead of shooting from the hip and leaving the MPs wondering whether to tow the current party policies or agree with Corbyn.
 
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Archers Road said:
Which policies are they then? Examples please.

Politics in the real world is all about compromise; it's the art of the possible. Which is why the doctrinaire student politics of Corbyn is fine in a protest movement but useless in the leadership of a party who would like to govern.

Furthermore, the absolute conviction of idealists who refuse to accept they are anything other than 100% right on %100 of the issues, is pretty sinister. It's what the far left has in common with fascism (that and a tendency to conspiracy theories and anti-semitism).
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So I guess you don't like the party becoming more popular then and attracting back lots of ex-supporters, as well as winning bi-elections and mayoral elections? hmmm - I can see why that would be undesirable in a political leader.

I can't believe you are comparing me to a fascist just for using evidence for backing up my claims in the face of meaningless soundbites or unprovable assertions like 'unelectable'!

Anti-Semite BS again... <doh>
 
SpursDisciple said:
The apartheid thing is unfair, given their relative ages - he was 18 when Mandela was released and 20 when apartheid fell. Pro-austerity is definitely wrong and pro-privatisation is absolutely denied by him. Can I, in a comradely fashion, advise you to keep more of an open mind on him. The election is just starting. If he is a bullshitter, it will come out and I, like last time, will vote Corbyn. Smith is pretty much unknown, I don't know much about him at all, but he is placing himself as a presentable/electable version of Corbyn, which appeals to me. I will be listening closely over the next few weeks to see if he is up to it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36834096
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I know a bit about Smith, he's a MP from just up the road and has been made to look an idiot a fair few times - particularly by jumping on the Pontypridd should have a regional rugby bandwagon as a vote winner.

But he said live on BBC that austerity was right. Not sure how you can deny that. It's hardly left wing is it?

I do keep an open mind, it's just what I know about Owen doesn't bring the words 'honesty', 'integrity', 'fighting for the working class'. As he is part of the 'chicken coup' the word 'political opportunism' springs more to mind. If he had run originally I'd have more respect for him. But the fact he, like Eagle, is just another stooge of Blairites who are destroying and splitting the party - whether he knows it or not, leaves me with little respect for him.
 
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Smirnoffpriest said:
I know a bit about Smith, he's a MP from just up the road and has been made to look an idiot a fair few times - particularly by jumping on the Pontypridd should have a regional rugby bandwagon as a vote winner.

But he said live on BBC that austerity was right. Not sure how you can deny that. It's hardly left wing is it?

I do keep an open mind, it's just what I know about Owen doesn't bring the words 'honesty', 'integrity', 'fighting for the working class'. As he is part of the 'chicken coup' the word 'political opportunism' springs more to mind. If he had run originally I'd have more respect for him. But the fact he, like Eagle, is just another stooge of Blairites who are destroying and splitting the party - whether he knows it or not, leaves me with little respect for him.
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The principle of reducing our deficit through cutting costs isn't a party political football, that belongs on one side or the other, it's a simple necessity.

Where the 2 sides should and do differ is on the means of delivering it.
 
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Tobes said:
The principle of reducing our deficit through cutting costs isn't a party political football, that belongs on one side or the other, it's a simple necessity.

Where the 2 sides should and do differ is on the means of delivering it.
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How is it a necessity? It's been shown to not increase growth or reduce the deficit, and has been derided by leading economists as being bumpf. Notice that the Tories went through the biggest austerity drive this country has ever seen - it made it look like Thatcher was merely playing. Yet they increased the deficit initially, lost our Triple-A credit rating and oversaw the worst recovery from a recession ever.

But as has been widely accepted, the austerity was a political choice, it made the poor poorer - cost of living went up, numbers using food banks exploded (is in the millions), evictions and homelessness numbers rose hugely, pay froze or shrank under inflation, zero hour contracts boomed, and the number of people living under the poverty line increased into the millions. While there were tax breaks for the rich and the rich got richer.

The economy still hasn't fully recovered from a crash in 2007 and we now have Brexit to deal with. Hardly glowing recommendation for austerity.

As has been said 'you don't cut your way to prosperity'.
 
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Smirnoffpriest said:
How is it a necessity? It's been shown to not increase growth or reduce the deficit, and has been derided by leading economists as being bumpf. Notice that the Tories went through the biggest austerity drive this country has ever seen - it made it look like Thatcher was merely playing. Yet they increased the deficit initially, lost our Triple-A credit rating and oversaw the worst recovery from a recession ever.

But as has been widely accepted, the austerity was a political choice, it made the poor poorer - cost of living went up, numbers using food banks exploded (is in the millions), evictions and homelessness numbers rose hugely, pay froze or shrank under inflation, zero hour contracts boomed, and the number of people living under the poverty line increased into the millions. While there were tax breaks for the rich and the rich got richer.

The economy still hasn't fully recovered from a crash in 2007 and we now have Brexit to deal with. Hardly glowing recommendation for austerity.

As has been said 'you don't cut your way to prosperity'.
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A deficit is the simple exercise of spending more than you earn, disastrous for the average family or person. Gvts get away with owing to their ability to keep rolling over their debt. In other words virtually like a perpetual loan.

Whilst interest rates are low this becomes more sustainable, but should rates begin to rise it can be ruinous.

Economic wisdom dictates that a cyclical deficit can be desirable. A structural deficit, which the UK has been running for a long time now, is not desirable and should be reduced or eliminated if possible.
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
So I guess you don't like the party becoming more popular then and attracting back lots of ex-supporters, as well as winning bi-elections and mayoral elections? hmmm - I can see why that would be undesirable in a political leader.

I can't believe you are comparing me to a fascist just for using evidence for backing up my claims in the face of meaningless soundbites or unprovable assertions like 'unelectable'!

Anti-Semite BS again... <doh>
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No, it's the zealous "you're either with us or against us" approach of many on the far left which leads me to equate them with fascism.

I've met quite a few Militant Tendancy and/or Socialist Worker types over the years, & I find some of them quite scary. If you'd lived through the seventies and eighties you'd know what I mean.

Are you refusing to accept that some elements in the Labour party may have a problem with anti-semitism? Not an issue that even needs addressing in your eyes?
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
How is it a necessity? It's been shown to not increase growth or reduce the deficit, and has been derided by leading economists as being bumpf. Notice that the Tories went through the biggest austerity drive this country has ever seen - it made it look like Thatcher was merely playing. Yet they increased the deficit initially, lost our Triple-A credit rating and oversaw the worst recovery from a recession ever.

But as has been widely accepted, the austerity was a political choice, it made the poor poorer - cost of living went up, numbers using food banks exploded (is in the millions), evictions and homelessness numbers rose hugely, pay froze or shrank under inflation, zero hour contracts boomed, and the number of people living under the poverty line increased into the millions. While there were tax breaks for the rich and the rich got richer.

The economy still hasn't fully recovered from a crash in 2007 and we now have Brexit to deal with. Hardly glowing recommendation for austerity.

As has been said 'you don't cut your way to prosperity'.
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You're confusing the basic principle with Tory policy decisions.

The basic principle of reducing the shortfall in the spending deficit has to be a sound one
 
Tobes said:
You're confusing the basic principle with Tory policy decisions.

The basic principle of reducing the shortfall in the spending deficit has to be a sound one
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There are 2 ways of doing that though. Increasing your revenue (taxes) by growing the economy or by reducing expenditure down to your current revenue. As the Vodka soaked priest above said, the second approach hasn't gone too well.
 
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Smirnoffpriest said:
I think you are confusing austerity with reducing the deficit
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Reducing the deficit doesn't have to mean austerity. There are plenty of other ways to increase revenue. Getting companies to pay their taxes would be a start. In 2013/14 tax avoidance cost the Exchequer £119bn, but instead the Tories decided to punish the unemployed, low paid and disabled.
 
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PISKIE said:
Reducing the deficit doesn't have to mean austerity. There are plenty of other ways to increase revenue. Getting companies to pay their taxes would be a start. In 2013/14 tax avoidance cost the Exchequer £119bn, but instead the Tories decided to punish the unemployed, low paid and disabled.
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Here, I'll agree with you. Piss takers like, Google, Facebook, et al should be told, 'pay what's fair or **** off'! .

Paying virtually zero, as some have been doing, is unacceptable.
 
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