Off Topic The Environmental & Pollution Thread

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I wouldn't promote plastics too heartily FLT. We know they have their place if used far more responsibly. The problem is, they are not. And almost never have been. For example, as you no doubt know, they are in the food chain. The smallest creatures in the sea eat plastic fragments and we eventually consume the fish that consume them, amongst other top predators. There is even plastic floating about in the atmosphere that we are breathing in. Nobody with any sense is blaming the product. It's what people do with it that deserves punishment.

On the other hand, Covid-19 deaths are closely tied to air pollution. Namely NO₂ produced largely by diesel engines: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...y-be-key-contributor-to-covid-19-deaths-study

Always knew diesels were a bad thing.
 
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Here is a precursor of what is to come for the oil industries: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...as-un-sounds-alarm-on-to-covid-19-relief-fund

Today, Monday 20th April 2020, USA Crude oil market price went negative for the first time in its entire history, at $-38 dollars per barrel. Yeah, this is just a big blip, and it will recover. But the writing is on the wall for fossil fuels. The asset that pretty much powered the 20th century is now almost done. It is just a matter of time before the oil chiefs and their politician slaves realise it.
 
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TheSecondStain said:
I wouldn't promote plastics too heartily FLT. We know they have their place if used far more responsibly. The problem is, they are not. And almost never have been. For example, as you no doubt know, they are in the food chain. The smallest creatures in the sea eat plastic fragments and we eventually consume the fish that consume them, amongst other top predators. There is even plastic floating about in the atmosphere that we are breathing in. Nobody with any sense is blaming the product. It's what people do with it that deserves punishment.

On the other hand, Covid-19 deaths are closely tied to air pollution. Namely NO₂ produced largely by diesel engines: https://www.theguardian.com/environ...y-be-key-contributor-to-covid-19-deaths-study

Always knew diesels were a bad thing.
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Why wouldn’t I promote plastics too heartily? All that needs to happen is better education. Don’t blame the product for human behaviour.

As an aside, what is the downside of micro particles being in the food chain and how much of other materials are in the food chain and why are they never publicised or discussed?
 
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fatletiss said:
Why wouldn’t I promote plastics too heartily? All that needs to happen is better education. Don’t blame the product for human behaviour.

As an aside, what is the downside of micro particles being in the food chain and how much of other materials are in the food chain and why are they never publicised or discussed?
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It's very dangerous for plastic to be in the food chain. The smallest creatures eat the stuff and to then can't eat. Then they die. Then there's less food for creatures further up the chain.
And this stuff is publicised.
 
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TheSecondStain said:
It's very dangerous for plastic to be in the food chain. The smallest creatures eat the stuff and to then can't eat. Then they die. Then there's less food for creatures further up the chain.
And this stuff is publicised.
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plastic in food chain is publicised. What I a asking is what about other materials in the food chain. Why is that not publicised.

the plastic in the food chain is micro plastic . That is what is found in the food chain and I’m not sure that’s killing these creatures. Lumps of plastic are, no doubt and this is dangerous. I just read all the time about plastic in the food chain, but it is never backed up with how that’s harmful to us and I’ve never seen a headline that talks about metal or other materials in the food chain. I have no doubt they are. There may well be something out there, but I’ve not seen it.

soundbites are dangerous. Ban Plastics. War on Plastics. These are unforgiving headlines and are wrong. Education. Better care. More caring governments. Better recycling. These are what is needed.

but regardless, it’s all about human behaviour.

let’s ban plastic and replace it with all the other materials offered as alternatives and then wait 20 years to realise we’ve just added to the carbon issue on the planet.
 
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To close, my whole point when posting that image was to point out that we need to be careful what we wish for and to just show that the message from February and the previous 3 years was all anti-plastic and now today, it’s the saviour.

I’m just showing the shortsightedness of people. Dig deeper and dig properly is my message. Don’t let the media run riot as they taint views incorrectly.
 
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fatletiss said:
To close, my whole point when posting that image was to point out that we need to be careful what we wish for and to just show that the message from February and the previous 3 years was all anti-plastic and now today, it’s the saviour.

I’m just showing the shortsightedness of people. Dig deeper and dig properly is my message. Don’t let the media run riot as they taint views incorrectly.
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FLT. You ought to know by now that plastics is not the saviour and never have been. They have always been a means to an end. The problem has always been people. People will exploit a market [people] and ultimately that market won't give a **** [people again]. When I had the opportunity to go and work for the oil industry, back in 1990/91, I turned it down, despite that fact that it would pribably make me financially secure. Because I knew what their motive was, and what they knew they could get away with. And I could clearly see the damage they were doing. As plenty of people could see then and can see now. Although I was not prepared to turn a blind eye.

Even now, Big Oil gets a pass: https://www.teslarati.com/big-oil-i...the-united-states-after-falling-flat-but-why/
 
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TheSecondStain said:
FLT. You ought to know by now that plastics is not the saviour and never have been. They have always been a means to an end. The problem has always been people. People will exploit a market [people] and ultimately that market won't give a **** [people again]. When I had the opportunity to go and work for the oil industry, back in 1990/91, I turned it down, despite that fact that it would pribably make me financially secure. Because I knew what their motive was, and what they knew they could get away with. And I could clearly see the damage they were doing. As plenty of people could see then and can see now. Although I was not prepared to turn a blind eye.

Even now, Big Oil gets a pass: https://www.teslarati.com/big-oil-i...the-united-states-after-falling-flat-but-why/
Click to expand...

It’s not that I think it’s the saviour, it’s the one eyed coverage of it as the latest devil that gets me. I’m just revelling in the fact that right now, we’d be f#cked without it.

Don’t worry, once this is all over, we’ll go back to being the devil again
 
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Plastic is a material of our age and it is not something we can dispose of and easily replace with something more environmentally acceptable. As with most things, it's the way plastic is abused, mainly by corporations who insist on wrapping everything in layers of the stuff, when a simple recycled card box would be more than adequate. Plastic has been demonised as fats says, but out of ignorance. Educate people to reject its use where it's not necessary, and also hammer industry with fines for using it the way they currently do. It's too easy to demonise plastic as a material when the real problem is in the way we all use and abuse it.

The problem is that all governments pay lip service to tackling the problem but in reality do nothing to bring about real change by educating the public and imposing restrictions on single use plastic wrapping etc. A levy on plastic bags at shops is completely pointless, when everything going into the bag is also wrapped in plastic.
 
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Kaito said:
Plastic is a material of our age and it is not something we can dispose of and easily replace with something more environmentally acceptable. As with most things, it's the way plastic is abused, mainly by corporations who insist on wrapping everything in layers of the stuff, when a simple recycled card box would be more than adequate. Plastic has been demonised as fats says, but out of ignorance. Educate people to reject its use where it's not necessary, and also hammer industry with fines for using it the way they currently do. It's too easy to demonise plastic as a material when the real problem is in the way we all use and abuse it.

The problem is that all governments pay lip service to tackling the problem but in reality do nothing to bring about real change by educating the public and imposing restrictions on single use plastic wrapping etc. A levy on plastic bags at shops is completely pointless, when everything going into the bag is also wrapped in plastic.
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I agree with a lot of your post, but a couple of things I want to point out.

1. Recycled cardboard - the energy and chemicals used in a lot of cardboard packaging can be worse in environmental terms. Carbon footprint is very poor on first production and chemicals used in some (not all) is bad too.

2. Be careful with the “things wrapped in plastic” that go into a bag. If it’s food then the value of the plastic in most cases his huge. Saves in food wastage which is still one of the number one issues we have.

some good valid points K
 
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Kaito said:
Plastic is a material of our age and it is not something we can dispose of and easily replace with something more environmentally acceptable. As with most things, it's the way plastic is abused, mainly by corporations who insist on wrapping everything in layers of the stuff, when a simple recycled card box would be more than adequate. Plastic has been demonised as fats says, but out of ignorance. Educate people to reject its use where it's not necessary, and also hammer industry with fines for using it the way they currently do. It's too easy to demonise plastic as a material when the real problem is in the way we all use and abuse it.

The problem is that all governments pay lip service to tackling the problem but in reality do nothing to bring about real change by educating the public and imposing restrictions on single use plastic wrapping etc. A levy on plastic bags at shops is completely pointless, when everything going into the bag is also wrapped in plastic.
Click to expand...
fatletiss said:
I agree with a lot of your post, but a couple of things I want to point out.

1. Recycled cardboard - the energy and chemicals used in a lot of cardboard packaging can be worse in environmental terms. Carbon footprint is very poor on first production and chemicals used in some (not all) is bad too.

2. Be careful with the “things wrapped in plastic” that go into a bag. If it’s food then the value of the plastic in most cases his huge. Saves in food wastage which is still one of the number one issues we have.

some good valid points K
Click to expand...

It's nice to see a balanced debate on here that hasn't turned into a lecture. Two interesting posts that you only get when respecting others points of veiw.
 
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Interesting video TSS. The real battle is with governments refusing to relinquish our reliance on oil and gas. Just look at where the latest US bailouts have gone to - oil, gas and airline corporations. Factor into that the fact that the American and every other military is totally reliant on fuel and I'm left with the impression that oil is no about to go away anytime soon, and almost certainly not in our lifetime.

It doesn't even matter how much the world oil price is hit because governments will find a way to support it and keep it flowing. Any talk of the final decline of oil really is just a pipe dream because there are no real alternatives on a large scale that can be quickly implemented. Electric vehicles work on a consumer scale but many governments just will not invest in the necessary infrastructure to create environmentally friendly public transport.

You would think with all the evidence of the immense drop in pollution around the world since the lockdowns happened and realising a huge numbers of people are waking up to the fact that we have to take more care of the environment, governments would have used this opportunity to change the direction regarding our economy. Unfortunately most governments are acting by supporting the heavy polluting industries rather than gearing up for a massive move towards clean technology. There will be some drastic changes in the near to medium term regarding the global economy but a reduction in oil production, gas extraction and mining won't be among them.

It's all very disappointing that governments are so short sighted but their game is profits at any expense and there seems the only way to convince them is by mass civil disobedience and prolonged protests. If we want a cleaner world we are just going to have to fight for it, and it will come down to a fight. There are so many avenues of discussion that video opens up but I should leave that for another day. In closing I would add that we should all do everything we are able to for the environment, because it's the only one we have.
 
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Kaito said:
Interesting video TSS. The real battle is with governments refusing to relinquish our reliance on oil and gas. Just look at where the latest US bailouts have gone to - oil, gas and airline corporations. Factor into that the fact that the American and every other military is totally reliant on fuel and I'm left with the impression that oil is no about to go away anytime soon, and almost certainly not in our lifetime.

It doesn't even matter how much the world oil price is hit because governments will find a way to support it and keep it flowing. Any talk of the final decline of oil really is just a pipe dream because there are no real alternatives on a large scale that can be quickly implemented. Electric vehicles work on a consumer scale but many governments just will not invest in the necessary infrastructure to create environmentally friendly public transport.

You would think with all the evidence of the immense drop in pollution around the world since the lockdowns happened and realising a huge numbers of people are waking up to the fact that we have to take more care of the environment, governments would have used this opportunity to change the direction regarding our economy. Unfortunately most governments are acting by supporting the heavy polluting industries rather than gearing up for a massive move towards clean technology. There will be some drastic changes in the near to medium term regarding the global economy but a reduction in oil production, gas extraction and mining won't be among them.

It's all very disappointing that governments are so short sighted but their game is profits at any expense and there seems the only way to convince them is by mass civil disobedience and prolonged protests. If we want a cleaner world we are just going to have to fight for it, and it will come down to a fight. There are so many avenues of discussion that video opens up but I should leave that for another day. In closing I would add that we should all do everything we are able to for the environment, because it's the only one we have.
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By and large, I pretty much agree with your point of view, Kaito. I could argue some of the economics vs militarist points, but on the whole... yeah.
And we will have to fight for it, though I think the overwhelming evidence will win the day eventually. We just have to keep educating the public. Boring as that may be for some.
Pulling carbon out of the ground, to send it, one way or another, into the atmosphere, to change the planet chemistry so as to make it uninhabitable for humans, for profit, is the most delusional and ridiculous Earth experiment we could possibly undertake and continue. And it will eventually run out anyway, so we have to stop sometime. Why not now, before economies collapse? Especially now that there is a true, cheaper, clean alternative. And if Covid-19 leaves anything of benefit in its wake, it is that even a short term partial cessation of that stupid experiment can have massive positive effects.
 
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And Michael Moore's backing, as producer, gave this documentary too much gravitas. About a quarter of it is accurate, but most of it is either wildly out of date by at least a decade, or misinformed. Anyway, Planet of the Humans:

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fatletiss said:
The very last sentence:

"We really should all be completely focused on stopping plastic from entering the oceans in the first place."

I’m pleased this was in the article at least as normally that part is missed.
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Indeed, I liked that too. However, I think we live in an era where people could be shown and even educated with the best information, and then almost completely ignore it. If anyone could convince me that the world's population would, en masse, truly change their behaviour over convenience, I would back it to the hilt. But I don't have sufficient faith in ordinary people to stop screwing up their environment. So, ultimately, one has to develop plastics that are totally safe in the environment, or remove them and use other materials where possible, and strive to develop other materials that people can't abuse.
 
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I was watching Mediterranean with Simon Reeve the other evening and this story unfolded. If you have a strong stomach, have a look at this clip:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06mr1p9

This is obviously not a new phenomenon either. Here’s a paper from 2013 about the same thing. Sadly things have got worse.
http://plasticbusters.unisi.it/wp-content/uploads/sites/37/2016/04/Campani2013.pdf

I agree entirely with Fats that the real problem is not the plastic itself, but the way people use it and discard it, with no thought for the consequences of their actions. We all have to shoulder the blame for allowing ourselves to become so addicted to single-use plastic, but like TSS I don’t trust the majority of my fellow humans to change their ways. The game-changers will have to come from governments, who will have to give industry incentives and disincentives as appropriate.
 
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