The Brendan Rodgers / Replacement thread

[BBFs Unpopular View]

I may or may not agree with the above.

But I 've got a bee about people presenting things as facts when actually it is their (or a common) interpretation of the facts. Especially the last point. is this a FACT that he quit as it got tough? Could he have quit for other reasons?

Sorry.

I see, so, you target that point when you have nothing to offer to the contrary to support that point?

I have, that his season was a disaster and he felt it was time to quit, it is obviously an opinion based on his bad season.

So, what is your motive for focusing on that to "prove me wrong" I am wondering

 

[Bodinki]

It's funny, you point to my over simplification and then go on yo over simplify yourself

My point is valid, that Brod is getting no credit for doing well and then having a mare this year.
The PL is not the Bundes.. not by a longshot.


Brod gets no credit for last season it was all Suarez
Brod gets slated for failing to replace Suarez

Klopp get all the credit for doing well even though it was because of Lewandowksi and such
Klopp doesn't get slated for failing to replace the players he lost.
Klopp doesn't get nearly as much stick for doing worse than Brod this season.
As soon as it got tough Klopp quit

Those are factual points

Maybe.....
Klopp gets credit because the team had a sustained period of success though, and not a one season "Almost" league challenge.

Plus Klopp gets more credit than his players because there would be too many players to credit, the turnover of players during his tenure was silly, he was never able to have a settled squad.

I think you have a point in Suarez stealing Brods credit, sure. But when you have one season of finishing 2nd unexpectedly out of nowhere because one player starts playing like he has a rocket up his arse and velcro boots, and then he leaves and boom, you are back down into the doldrums....you can see why some people (rightly or wrongly) might make the connection.

I think Klopp quit because he is not a glutton for punishment, he is fighting a losing battle at that club.
They wont offer the same kind of contracts that Bayern, Real, Barca, Chelsea, City etc will offer to players and he knows that as soon as he builds another winning team, they will just all get snatched from under him.....so whats the point?
Same thing happened with Mourinho's Porto team.....as soon as they get success and appear on peoples radars, the vultures swoop in and they get picked clean.
A similar thing happpened with Southampton last season, though in a smaller scale, where they finished a lot higher than most people expected and bigger clubs (Liverpool and United) swooped in and raped their squad.
Like Klopp has done before, Koeman has managed to re build the team and push them on even further, which is impressive.
This season was just a raping too far for Klopp by the looks.

 

[carlthejackal]

I see, so, you target that point when you have nothing to offer to the contrary to support that point?

I have, that his season was a disaster and he felt it was time to quit, it is obviously an opinion based on his bad season.

So, what is your motive for focusing on that to "prove me wrong" I am wondering

I think we should get Klopp and get rid of Rodgers. That would be great.

You are dissing Klopp. All I am saying is that your arguments against Klopp are not facts but an interpretation of these events.

The earlier we get rid of Rodgers the better.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

hang on here..

how long has klopp been at dortmund and how many times has he had players lifted?

answers:

since 2008 = 7 years now

whats he won? two leagues, one cup.. couple of super cups which don't really count.

who's he had to compete with.. the megalithic Bayern

he took them form 13 consistently forward unitl they won the league and then won the double there as well.

he lost lewandowski to a free and the club did their collective best not to lose him but had to ensure it before that it was Gotze to bayern, beofre that kagawa who they resigned, beofre than sahin,

he was at the club when they signed hummels, signed kagawa originally, gundogan, and lewandowski....

they in thier bad season have still reach the german cup final.... beating bayern in semi. they will play wolfsburg

why are we slaughtering klopp for one bad year?

Dortmund:
2001/02 Bundesliga Champions
2002/03 Bundesliga 5th
2003/04 Bundesliga 8th
2004/05 Bundesliga 7th
2005/06 Bundesliga 10th
2006/07 Bundesliga 9th
2007/08 Bundesliga 13th
2008/09 Bundesliga 6th
2009/10 Bundesliga 5th
2010/11 Bundesliga Champions
2011/12 Bundesliga Champions
2012/13 Bundesliga 2nd
2013/14 Bundesliga 2nd

Klopp's record at Dortmund is not too shabby.. This year is poor and so fine that should not be ignored but why write him off?

Had he just resigned last summer he'd be europe's hottest property.

Again I make the point. Sentiment and good will should be used to asses this season's performance and his failure to replace the players he lost to Bayern?
My assessment of the judgement of Klopp's season is not based on what he has won previously or his quality as a manager. So you are setting out to disprove non existant points? No one is doubting his skills and success.

So, by your logic, we should go easier on Brod if he had gained 3 moire points last year and won the PL? That EXACTLY what your argument is putting forward mate, at least admit that

 

[Bodinki]

Sentiment and goodwill from pervious good work is null and void when assessing the season you've just had, it also doesn't negate the failures that led to this season for Klopp, even with CL he failed to replace who he lost.

So are we saying that if Brod had gained 3 more points last season, just 3 points, that means we should be far more lenient on him this year?

I think that is fair.

Those point are made in refernce to you and Bodanki's posts

As silly as you make it sound....yes.
The gap between winning and losing is usually very small in terms of points or performances, that one penalty that you should have scored, that one offside decision that wasn't given.
But make no mistake, the difference between winning and losing in terms of goodwill, money, and prestige is HUGE.

 

[Stan]

Obviously you are not reading my posts shteve.

it was 7 points at game 32 for us, 2 games in hand over United. I clearly said we failed in the last two games. It would not be much to expect to beat WB and Hull to close it to 1 point., Hence fine margins of failure.

Surely you get what I mean
Had we managed to beat those teams, you lot would be kacking it and you know it

To be honest I don't get what you mean as I don't think the performances against West Brom and Hull were contributory factors to fine margins of failure. Had you battered both of them and come away with two draws because the other team parked the bus then yes Rodgers and the Liverpool fans could feel hard done by. The reality is you were set a challenge to haul in United because we lost two games on the bounce and you met that challenge with a whimper. Rodgers may well point at those two games and lament that things could have been so different if only you'd managed to win them both but he'd be kidding himself as from what I saw of both games, you never really looked like winning either of them so the margin between failure and success wasn't actually that fine.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

you are all struggling to make different points to the one I am making. It's hilarious
Inventing arguments.

Klopp failed this year, Brod failed this year.
Klopp has done well in the past so has much more goodwill and mitigation, Brod failed by 3 points last year so he get so no goodwill or mitigation for him.

That is exactly the point I am making here.




You lot keep deluding yourselves that the argument is something else.

No one is denying Klopp's class, a proven manager who wins things. I am just pointing out some contradcitions in the anti Brod Pro Klopp arguments based on anything other than this season.

And it is no surprise the main proponents of this counter argument are those that doubted Brod all season Brod and want him gone and a Chelsea fan

 

[carlthejackal]

As silly as you make it sound....yes.
The gap between winning and losing is usually very small in terms of points or performances, that one penalty that you should have scored, that one offside decision that wasn't given.
But make no mistake, the difference between winning and losing in terms of goodwill, money, and prestige is HUGE.

As we have seen on many occasions and at various clubs, that first title is the nost difficult one. It applies to managers in their careers.

It is almost that psychological hurdle. I have no doubt that if it were Wenger, Mourinho, Ferguson, Paisley, Ancelloti in our position in the last 2-3 matches, we would have won that title. Rodgers not having won anything in his career just found that last step difficult.

Klopp has managed to beat a bigger and richer club to the title. That experience would be useful to us.

 

[Bodinki]

you are all struggling to make different points to the one I am making. It's hilarious
Inventing arguments.

Klopp failed this year, Brod failed this year.
Klopp has done well in th epast so has much more goodwill and mitigation, Brod failed by 3 points last year so he get sno goodwill or mitigation.

That is exactly the point I am making here.




You lot keep deluding yourselves that the argument is something else.

No one is denying Klopp's class, a proven manager who wins things. I am just pointing out some contradcitions in the anti Brod Pro arguments.

And it is no surprise the main proponents of this counter argument are those that doubled Brod and want him gone and a Chelsea fan

Exactly,
Winning 2 titles, getting CL qualification every season, making a CL final, then dropping down to 8th on a minimal budget = goodwill and mitigation
Winning nothing, finishing 2nd once and failing to get CL qualification and dropping to 5th on a £100m spend = no goodwill and mitigation

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Again I make the point. Sentiment and good will should be used to asses this season's performance and his failure to replace the players he lost to Bayern?
My assessment of the judgement of Klopp's season is not based on what he has won previously or his quality as a manager. So you are setting out to disprove non existant points? No one is doubting his skills and success.

So, by your logic, we should go easier on Brod if he had gained 3 moire points last year and won the PL? That EXACTLY what your argument is putting forward mate, at least admit that

No it's not

I'm saying klopp is a brilliant manager in his own right that he has proved with actual silverware

He's brought in good players consistently and frankly his record over the time in charge of Dortmund has been consistent as one of improvement then achievement that cannot be written off

The point on Rodgers is one over 3 years where he inherited 3 of his best players finished 7th bought 2 good players in maybe 3... Had a great year and now having lost his very best player could again finish 7th

We all all wondering if his signing of coutinho was a fluke and the rest of his signings show where he is at

The contrast between the two is huge

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

To be honest I don't get what you mean as I don't think the performances against West Brom and Hull were contributory factors to fine margins of failure. Had you battered both of them and come away with two draws because the other team parked the bus then yes Rodgers and the Liverpool fans could feel hard done by. The reality is you were set a challenge to haul in United because we lost two games on the bounce and you met that challenge with a whimper. Rodgers may well point at those two games and lament that things could have been so different if only you'd managed to win them both but he'd be kidding himself as from what I saw of both games, you never really looked like winning either of them so the margin between failure and success wasn't actually that fine.

You are creating another argument entirely Shteve.

I am saying and have said that failing to beat two teams we would expect to beat is what killed us with 6 games to go. Given how **** we have been that was not bad but was also an indication that if we can be so poor and only fall out of contention at that stage it is suely an indication of the quality of the team we are chasing this season.

Wit the seasonw we've had, you'd expect City and United to have wrapped this up long before they did, we were 4 ponts in range of city too up till our flop which started at home to United and continued against Arsenal, Villa in the cup, WB and Hull.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

As we have seen on many occasions and at various clubs, that first title is the nost difficult one. It applies to managers in their careers.

It is almost that psychological hurdle. I have no doubt that if it were Wenger, Mourinho, Ferguson, Paisley, Ancelloti in our position in the last 2-3 matches, we would have won that title. Rodgers not having won anything in his career just found that last step difficult.

Klopp has managed to beat a bigger and richer club to the title. That experience would be useful to us.

I'd rather have anchelotti though please cos is love to know where he is going

 

[Bodinki]

No it's not

I'm saying klopp is a brilliant manager in his own right that he has proved with actual silverware

He's brought in good players consistently and frankly his record over the time in charge of Dortmund has been consistent as one of improvement then achievement that cannot be written off

The point on Rodgers is one over 3 years where he inherited 3 of his best players finished 7th bought 2 good players in maybe 3... Had a great year and now having lost his very best player could again finish 7th

We all all wondering if his signing of coutinho was a fluke and the rest of his signings show where he is at

The contrast between the two is huge

This.
I get Sisu's point on Brod getting no mitigation for last seasons good work.
But comparing what Brod has done at Liverpool to what Klopp has done at Bortmund is silly.
Klopp nearly made them European Champs ffs!

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

This is hilarious, really. I only pointed out the difference in judging disasterous seasons and the similar problems faced by both managers who failed to replace their shining star striker, not compared managers, not dismissed Klopp.

What makes me laugh is NONE of us watch or take interest in the Bundes but now I am facing experts on Klopp and Dortmund.
Please no one embarrass yourselves by saying you watch the Bundes every week.

Dortmund were quality under Klopp when they had the likes of Lewandowski, we were quality with Suarez. Klopp loses said players and disaster follows, ok fine, bad season but the goodwill of his previous seasons gets him a free pass, fair enough. We lose Suarez Brod also failed ot replace him with quality. Bt he gets a far worse hammering for it, rightly so cos we are Liverpool fans. Brod lucked out with Suarez but there is no chance Klopp lucked out with Lewandowski. Not saying he did cos I don;t believe that ****e anways

Rodgers misses out by 3 ponts so no goodwill for him. had we won the PL last year Rodgers would have been bulletproof this season and any claim to the contrary would be a ****ing lie.


You guys..

 

[Bodinki]

This is hilarious, really. I only pointed out the difference in judging disasterous seasons and the similar problems faced by both managers who failed to replace their shining star striker, not compared managers, not dismissed Klopp.

What makes me laugh is NONE of us watch or take interest in the Bundes but now I am facing experts on Klopp and Dortmund.
Please no one embarrass yourselves by saying you watch the Bundes every week.

Dortmund were quality under Klopp when they had the likes of Lewandowski, we were quality with Suarez. Klopp loses said players and disaster follows, ok fine, bad season but the goodwill of his previous seasons gets him a free pass, fair enough.

Rodgers misses out by 3 ponts so no goodwill for him. had we won the PL last year Rodgers would have been bulletproof this season and any claim tohte contrary would be a ****ing lie.

LOL, stop being an eejit.
You made the direct comparison between the two, in that Klopp gets goodwill for his achievement and Rodgers doesnt.
I am simply pointing out that the reason for that is because what Klopp did WAS an achievement, and what Rodgers did wasnt. Yes he almost won you a title, but almost buys you **** in a results driven sport.
And yes I agree with you, that if Rodgers had won the title he would be bulletproof (for a while atleast), its silly, but thats the truth of it....no one HAS claimed to the contrary. No one remembers who finished 2nd.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

LOL, stop being an eejit.
You made the direct comparison between the two, in that Klopp gets goodwill for his achievement and Rodgers doesnt.
I am simply pointing out that the reason for that is because what Klopp did WAS an achievement, and what Rodgers did wasnt. Yes he almost won you a title, but almost buys you **** in a results driven sport.
And yes I agree with you, that if Rodgers had won the title he would be bulletproof (for a while atleast), its silly, but thats the truth of it....no one HAS claimed to the contrary. No one remembers who finished 2nd.

No I didn't when did I compare Rodgers career to Klopps.

I am 100% correct to say that three points are the difference between Rodgers being totally safe, as Klopp was, and the nonsense on this board all season about him.
3 points.

Ludicrous and fickle.

he was a ****ing genius last year and a clueless [HASHTAG]#luckedout[/HASHTAG] manager this year, that is what I have been reading the last two seasons.
But hpw would you know, you do not frequent this board as much to see that.

So, lets say Klopp deserves his good will, for winning, I think Rodgers deserves goodwill for last season cos we never even expected to come close.
3 points the difference between being a hero and a villain.

Fick off

 

[luvgonzo]

I watch the Bundasliga every week and have been such an avid fan of Klopp that he now has an injunction against me, I'm all for him becoming our new manager as long as it doesn't clash with the filming of The Office 2 Electric Boogaloo.

 

[Super G Ted'inho]

hang on here..

how long has klopp been at dortmund and how many times has he had players lifted?

answers:

since 2008 = 7 years now

whats he won? two leagues, one cup.. couple of super cups which don't really count.

who's he had to compete with.. the megalithic Bayern

he took them form 13 consistently forward unitl they won the league and then won the double there as well.

he lost lewandowski to a free and the club did their collective best not to lose him but had to ensure it before that it was Gotze to bayern, beofre that kagawa who they resigned, beofre than sahin,

he was at the club when they signed hummels, signed kagawa originally, gundogan, and lewandowski....

they in thier bad season have still reach the german cup final.... beating bayern in semi. they will play wolfsburg

why are we slaughtering klopp for one bad year?

Dortmund:
2001/02 Bundesliga Champions
2002/03 Bundesliga 5th
2003/04 Bundesliga 8th
2004/05 Bundesliga 7th
2005/06 Bundesliga 10th
2006/07 Bundesliga 9th
2007/08 Bundesliga 13th
2008/09 Bundesliga 6th
2009/10 Bundesliga 5th
2010/11 Bundesliga Champions
2011/12 Bundesliga Champions
2012/13 Bundesliga 2nd
2013/14 Bundesliga 2nd

Klopp's record at Dortmund is not too shabby.. This year is poor and so fine that should not be ignored but why write him off?

Had he just resigned last summer he'd be europe's hottest property.

[HASHTAG]#luckedout[/HASHTAG]

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

This.
I get Sisu's point on Brod getting no mitigation for last seasons good work.
But comparing what Brod has done at Liverpool to what Klopp has done at Bortmund is silly.
Klopp nearly made them European Champs ffs!

nearly is not a win though.. its a good run.

He has won two titles and been consistently up there and that pushes dortmund on.

you guys know dortmund did a valencia running up huge debts and ended up having to sell thier ground... that bayern paid thier players wages for a period and in 2005 they nearly went bankrupt?

This cub has been run very tightly since and klopp hired on in 2008 and turned that club around (and thomas doll before him got them going after nealry getting relegated)

so all in all klopp looks all the more impressive to me.

Its only nine years since bayern bailed them out to pay the wages.... they look to have paid down a lot of that and are probably close to being a very stable club.

It is very bad for them to have this bad year but there you go.

Klopp ran the place well for his tenure and a Cup final win will put them in europa.

" leagues and 2 cups in 7 years would be some return at a club nearly bankrupted at the same time we were.

 

[Bodinki]

No I didn't when did I compare Rodgers career to Klopps.

I am 100% correct to say that three points are the difference between Rodgers being totally safe, as Klopp was, and the nonsense on this board all season about him.
3 points.

Ludicrous and fickle.

he was a ****ing genius last year and a clueless [HASHTAG]#luckedout[/HASHTAG] manager this year, that is what I have been reading the last two seasons.
But hpw would you know, you do not frequent this board as much to see that.

I didnt say you were comparing their careers, but you were comparing their current situations and asking why Klopps reputation has been mitigated by his previous achievements and why Brod's hasn't.
You said that.......

All I did was offer an explanation to your question. And I don't feel you made enough of a distinction between the two managers' achievements to make it a valid comparison.