Where are you going to protest the season is virtually over? only two more home games and one of those is in the vote time frame.
The ballot...
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Where are you going to protest the season is virtually over? only two more home games and one of those is in the vote time frame.
The vote is irrelevant. Do you really think there will be no protests next season if we are told to have ID or the Allams fail to introduce concessions?
What I think is that the Allams in their own brutish ****ish way have got through another season. Next will be talk of summer signings, a push for promotion. When that starts to be questioned it will yet another buyer on the horizon, and the season will kick off with a lets get behind the team and not the regime. It was too late to make changes to the membership scheme and the badge but talks and meetings will go on.
Rather depressing really.
It’s pretty clear from the latest communication that the club intends to introduce ID cards even if there are no concessions.
English Law has two distinct areas
Common Law and Statute Law
Arrest comes under common law. Ejecting someone from a football stadium is a form of arrest.
Stewards operate under the right of a citizen to make a common law arrest and this only includes breach of the peace.
In case law there is an established right to remain silent. The Police incorporate this right into the statement they make when you are arrested. Section 23a (I think) of PACE sets out the specific wording.
I have not stated that it is illegal or unlawful, but in this country you have a right under common law to remain silent.
If you refuse to answer and refuse to show your ID, the Steward would be open to a charge of assault if you are manhandled in any way.
Common Law and Statute Law
Arrest comes under common law. Ejecting someone from a football stadium is a form of arrest.
Stewards operate under the right of a citizen to make a common law arrest and this only includes breach of the peace.
In case law there is an established right to remain silent. The Police incorporate this right into the statement they make when you are arrested. Section 23a (I think) of PACE sets out the specific wording.
I have not stated that it is illegal or unlawful, but in this country you have a right under common law to remain silent.
If you refuse to answer and refuse to show your ID, the Steward would be open to a charge of assault if you are manhandled in any way.
They have got through another season but at what cost? They have lost 4 or 5,000 supporters (maybe more) plus all the money those supporters would have spent on Hull City goods. If nothing changes Sky Sports will expect protests at televised matches next season which may affect how many matches above the minimum we get.
If they double the price and demand ID to watch Championship football will reduce the number of members considerably. They will lose supporters if they don't introduce concessions. Yes it is depressing but we have to learn to control the controllables. We don't own the club and they can do what they want up to a point. The only thing we can control is how and when we protest.
The Allams had an opportunity to take the sting out of the two most contentious issues facing the club. The name and concessions. They are in the process of throwing that opportunity away through their own incompetence. Sensible owners would have sat down with the supporters committee and hammered out a proposal on concessions that all the committee could sign up to and then held the vote.
Unfortunately we are owned by the Allams.
The right to remain silent is in criminal proceedings.
Your half googled, half made up rubbish isn’t factual I’m afraid.
Ejecting someone for breach of a contract condition is merely removing their licence to remain.
Not arrest in any way. There is no right to breach a condition which affirms you must prove your right to a concession. You can keep silent but it’s not under the right to remain silent, it’s just because you choose to breach.
Once you work out this is civil law, contract and tort... not legislation breaches... you may get this.
Stewards arresting people is no different to you or I arresting someone. The public have limited powers dependant on suspicion levels and gravity of offence. It’s nothing to do with concessions and ID.
Your half googled, half made up rubbish isn’t factual I’m afraid.
Ejecting someone for breach of a contract condition is merely removing their licence to remain.
Not arrest in any way. There is no right to breach a condition which affirms you must prove your right to a concession. You can keep silent but it’s not under the right to remain silent, it’s just because you choose to breach.
Once you work out this is civil law, contract and tort... not legislation breaches... you may get this.
Stewards arresting people is no different to you or I arresting someone. The public have limited powers dependant on suspicion levels and gravity of offence. It’s nothing to do with concessions and ID.
What do you think will happen if the stewards try to evict someone for not showing their ID in the North Stand? Will their friends and the people stood around them just shrug their shoulders and say he got what was coming to him, he should have his passport in his pocket so he can comply with Allams' rules?
A breach of the peace may ensue which would mean neither side of this argument could argue that the eviction of many fans in the ground would be unreasonable.
This isn’t about what will happen, it’s about what is legitimate.
The consequences of any policy is another issue altogether.
Enforcement is always a problem and that’s what’s lead to this sorry argument.
I’ve not even strayed into criminal deception but there is an argument that dishonest concessions are a crime... an area where the practicalities and time involved would usually preclude anyone giving a ****.
We won't know what is legitimate until the exact terms of the contract are published. TOM's point to me to be about what happens when there's a conflict between parliamentary legislation and civil law. Can Hull City Tigers Limited grant stewards more powers via civil law than parliament intended? If it comes to court it will make a few barristers very wealthy.
Honestly?
I expect there would be a lot of moaning and shouting, there may even be a shove or two, but largely people would act as most people act in football grounds now and they would let the stewards get on with it for fear of being thrown out and banned themselves
Sad, but that's what I honestly think would happen
Eh??
I’m lost. You can’t grant anyone extra legislative powers (unless it’s desginated by legislation).
Under civil law you just create entitlements by contract. You can’t contract to bestow legislative powers on someone but you can create rights (there are laws to prevent contract terms that are incompatible with statute and excessive).
If you contract to say that any person in the ground agrees to provide evidence of concession entitlement, that leads to a legitimacy for a steward to ask for ID.
Checking seat numbers and entry records can quickly give an indication of whether the person sat somewhere looks the right age...
Failure to comply doesn’t give the steward magic powers to arrest. In reality you’d be asked to leave if you were caught out and may face some sort of retrospective action if you had a club account?
There are different arguments being conflated here.
I’m lost. You can’t grant anyone extra legislative powers (unless it’s desginated by legislation).
Under civil law you just create entitlements by contract. You can’t contract to bestow legislative powers on someone but you can create rights (there are laws to prevent contract terms that are incompatible with statute and excessive).
If you contract to say that any person in the ground agrees to provide evidence of concession entitlement, that leads to a legitimacy for a steward to ask for ID.
Checking seat numbers and entry records can quickly give an indication of whether the person sat somewhere looks the right age...
Failure to comply doesn’t give the steward magic powers to arrest. In reality you’d be asked to leave if you were caught out and may face some sort of retrospective action if you had a club account?
There are different arguments being conflated here.
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Huh?
what does parliament intend specifically for use in football grounds?
I've probably missed your point, but I really don't think there is any conflict
When I go to pick something up from the post office I take with me the piece of paper that the postman posted through my letterbox, but they still won't give me the parcel until I have proven my ID to them. What the Allams are suggesting is no different in legal terms.
You grant all the power by accepting the ticket’s terms.
You can’t bestow absolutely anything by contract as unfair terms can by excluded by law... things like contracting to avoid laws or unfair restrictions on rights etc.
How often have you been asked to leave a night club when you have paid to enter?
What happens next...
If it turned sour the steward can call a police officer who could easily manage by force/arrest if a person was suspected reasonably of anything dishonest and refused to divulge their name.
You can’t bestow absolutely anything by contract as unfair terms can by excluded by law... things like contracting to avoid laws or unfair restrictions on rights etc.
How often have you been asked to leave a night club when you have paid to enter?
What happens next...
If it turned sour the steward can call a police officer who could easily manage by force/arrest if a person was suspected reasonably of anything dishonest and refused to divulge their name.
So let’s look at this way....
I know nowt even though I have 20 years experience in eviction and trespass law
I know nowt even though my work involves the indentification of people as an investigator and process server.
Supporters Direct legal team know nowt, because Mr Shoes says they are wrong.
Show me one piece of evidence to prove that a steward can have the Police arrest you for not showing ID.
No contract can overide English Law
I know nowt even though I have 20 years experience in eviction and trespass law
I know nowt even though my work involves the indentification of people as an investigator and process server.
Supporters Direct legal team know nowt, because Mr Shoes says they are wrong.
Show me one piece of evidence to prove that a steward can have the Police arrest you for not showing ID.
No contract can overide English Law
The police can arrest you for failing to provide your name and address if they suspect you have committed an offence. Even where the offence is minor, not identifying yourself could lead to arrest rather than a report for summons.
Ticket fraud is an offence where there is an element dishonesty to pay less than the proper rate for a service.
If a steward supplies an evidenced concern to a police officer that a person has dishonestly obtained a concession...
It’s possible to lead to an arrest quite legally.
I said the reality is a police officer would only be called in to help if tensions escalated and disorder levels were hit. It is extremely unlikely, yet possible, a club would start trying to get people arrested for payment issues.
You are using dud logic... and missing out the steps. A bit like the iPad adverts where they just cut the the end point and miss out all the clickS.
The arrest can be a consequence of not showing ID. But you get arrested!
A steward is more likely to ask an officer to assist ejection to prevent a breach of the peace...
The ejection being for not complying with the T and Cs of entry.
It’s you who keeps flapping about “arrests” and overriding law.
Please explain which laws are being overridden. You've been asked a few times. May help work out what you are on about!!
Ticket fraud is an offence where there is an element dishonesty to pay less than the proper rate for a service.
If a steward supplies an evidenced concern to a police officer that a person has dishonestly obtained a concession...
It’s possible to lead to an arrest quite legally.
I said the reality is a police officer would only be called in to help if tensions escalated and disorder levels were hit. It is extremely unlikely, yet possible, a club would start trying to get people arrested for payment issues.
You are using dud logic... and missing out the steps. A bit like the iPad adverts where they just cut the the end point and miss out all the clickS.
The arrest can be a consequence of not showing ID. But you get arrested!
A steward is more likely to ask an officer to assist ejection to prevent a breach of the peace...
The ejection being for not complying with the T and Cs of entry.
It’s you who keeps flapping about “arrests” and overriding law.
Please explain which laws are being overridden. You've been asked a few times. May help work out what you are on about!!
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You are just making things up to suit your argument.
Let me make it clear.
The Police will not arrest you for not disclosing your name.
They will only arrest you if they, not a steward believe you have committed an offence. A steward can only physically restrain you (arrest) if they themselves have witnessed an arrestable offence. It is not enough for them to believe, it has to be actual. The offences that stewards can act on are the same as any citizen of the country and they are established in English Law.
They do not have extra powers to question, arrest or search, just because of the terms and conditions of entry.
Pub landlords have historic rights of access and denial of service gained over time in common law. They used to be the sole arbiter of who was allowed in their premises.
One thing that you fail to understand. The terms and conditions apply to the person who the contract is made. If a supporter is using someone else’s pass, he or she would not have agreed to the terms and conditions and as such could not have any obligation to be bound by them.
Stewards do have the right to inspect tickets. But beyond that nothing.