Team sheet Tactics & Formation

[YorkieLancsHampyLondoner]

How would you guys describe our tactical approach to creating goal scoring opportunities?

It seems v 1 dimensional to me, lacking in any variety of approach or passing interplay between the 4 and over reliant on crosses which are statistically a poor way to get goals.

You’d think the point of signing Fraser Celina and Chaplin would be theyre able to work really closely together to pass and move through the opposition but it just seems head down individualistic and not a team effort between the four to set one another up. Not that the divisions ‘best 10’ gets a game for us…between Fraser and Piggot we’ve got so many goals and assists they achieved last season which cook is unable to integrate into his team and we paid a lot of money for these guys in fees and/or wages.

All I can tell you is we look dangerous in and around the opposition box for the first time in five or six years. That’ll do me for now. There are improvements to make everywhere.

Also, our wingers ping it back to the centre, cut inside to create chances and win loads of corners. I don’t think we are one dimensional or reliant on one route to goal.

I think it’s more about more quality with the end product.

 

[Buckyohare]

I think that’s much of our problem though. English fans obsess about crosses and corners but the ratio of goals scored from them is between 0-3% per game. It’s a huge investment of effort in an attacking method that offers such low prospects of success.

There’s loads of analysis but see for example:

https://www.onlinebetting.org.uk/betting-guides/football/how-often-do-teams-score-from-corners.html

We also have a middle level chance creation rating relative to other sudes in L1 and as the last few games have shown, when the goals dry up and you’re working with less chances it’s a bad combo. Our first XI struggled against Oldham…

Yesterday both sides actually had 9 chances which was a statistical outlier. We just weren’t very good at using any of them.

 

[YorkieLancsHampyLondoner]

I think that’s much of our problem though. English fans obsess about crosses and corners but the ratio of goals scored from them is between 0-3% per game. It’s a huge investment of effort in an attacking method that offers such low prospects of success.

There’s loads of analysis but see for example:

https://www.onlinebetting.org.uk/betting-guides/football/how-often-do-teams-score-from-corners.html

We also have a middle level chance creation rating relative to other sudes in L1 and as the last few games have shown, when the goals dry up and you’re working with less chances it’s a bad combo. Our first XI struggled against Oldham…

Yesterday both sides actually had 9 chances which was a statistical outlier. We just weren’t very good at using any of them.

3% will do if it’s an average. It’s not 0-3% and it’s not ‘per game’ it’s an average. If you want a to figure it’s 0-100% because I’m sure at some time a side has had one cross and scored from it.

And it’s meaningless. It includes all the **** teams with terrible strikers and crossers of the ball. The best sides are at 5-6% on corners which can add up to 10 goals in a season. Never mind crosses from open play and free kicks.

What matters is improving our own stats. And also how good our opposition is at defending crosses or corners and the opposition keeper.

What is the ratio of goals from balls played into the box? Well that would include all the lazy through balls the keeper picks up etc etc etc.

There is merit in looking at stats but it’s a hell of a lot more complex than a headline average of all the teams.

If it was fruitless the top sides wouldn’t be crossing the ball.

 

[Bigalreigned]

I’m not interested in stats either,for me it’s much more subjective.

Are we,overall,more enjoyable to watch?Yes.

Are we playing more attacking football than any time in the last,ooh,5-7 years?Yes.

Are we at least trying to win games rather than just sit back and see what happens?Yes.

Are we still frustratingly inconsistent?Unfortunately,YES!

 

[Southcoastoldgaffer]

Stats, damn stats! its passion, energy, enjoyment, fun, talented players playing in their best position and as a team & a hatfull of goals I want!

 

[itfcptc]

I feel like we've scored quite alot from Crosses this season, what we haven't done is score from that many through balls. The Bonne Burns connection has been a big part of that and part of the reason we've gone through a bit of a dry patch IMO

 

[Buckyohare]

Fair enough guys, if data isn't your thing. i get it; its not exactly what one turns up up for on a saturday afternoon!

That said, it's a massive part of the sport, Pro Zone for example is famously connected to Big Sam's Bolton side that he used to gain an edge for a motley bunch of players for few years. I'd think it would be unimaginable if any professional club didn't use it to inform how they train, what tactics they use, payer acquisition etc.

Brentford have made themselves a PL team through a lot of clever data analysis; their owners have made a huge fortune creating innovative stats which they sell to pro punters looking to beat the bookies and they’ve made it clear how they’ve used this approach to identify players that were for, example, underrated and undervalued at certain clubs and get them into their team where they can realise their true potential/value. not entirely data driven, but used in a large part to achieve the position they enjoy today.

I agree its always worth challenging stats and data as its often a case you can find a stat to support any view and thats a bone to pick with the authors who make the conclusions drawn from the data. in terms of how crosses have been analysed for their overall value as a route to goal im satisfied it's not the best option based on the many studies done on it.

BUT, thats not to say that crosses aren't worth doing, but its got to be one of a few patterns of play which is my main issue with Cooks team so far. After that Fraser goal V morecambe i thought 'yes; we've got players that can inter change passes with one another to create space and goal scoring opportunities.' since then we've not scored a goal like that that i can recall which is a missed opportunity with such technically gifted players at the club.

 

[YorkieLancsHampyLondoner]

Fair enough guys, if data isn't your thing. i get it; its not exactly what one turns up up for on a saturday afternoon!

That said, it's a massive part of the sport, Pro Zone for example is famously connected to Big Sam's Bolton side that he used to gain an edge for a motley bunch of players for few years. I'd think it would be unimaginable if any professional club didn't use it to inform how they train, what tactics they use, payer acquisition etc.

Brentford have made themselves a PL team through a lot of clever data analysis; their owners have made a huge fortune creating innovative stats which they sell to pro punters looking to beat the bookies and they’ve made it clear how they’ve used this approach to identify players that were for, example, underrated and undervalued at certain clubs and get them into their team where they can realise their true potential/value. not entirely data driven, but used in a large part to achieve the position they enjoy today.

I agree its always worth challenging stats and data as its often a case you can find a stat to support any view and thats a bone to pick with the authors who make the conclusions drawn from the data. in terms of how crosses have been analysed for their overall value as a route to goal im satisfied it's not the best option based on the many studies done on it.

BUT, thats not to say that crosses aren't worth doing, but its got to be one of a few patterns of play which is my main issue with Cooks team so far. After that Fraser goal V morecambe i thought 'yes; we've got players that can inter change passes with one another to create space and goal scoring opportunities.' since then we've not scored a goal like that that i can recall which is a missed opportunity with such technically gifted players at the club.

Interesting piece from EADT on stats.

“Staggeringly, just one of Town's 22 crosses found its target (a measly 5%), while Rotherham connected on eight of 24, for a much better target rate of 33%.”

We can’t cross and get on the end of it effectively.

I can understand why a centre back couldn’t cross but for Edwards, Aluko this is bread and butter stuff that should be natural and Bonne, Piggot, Chaplin should be drilled in knowing where the ball is going to hit. Everybody should be working on crossing and attacking crosses (not just corners!) and some players like Celina should be working a lot on both aspects.

 

[Buckyohare]

Interesting piece from EADT on stats.

“Staggeringly, just one of Town's 22 crosses found its target (a measly 5%), while Rotherham connected on eight of 24, for a much better target rate of 33%.”

We can’t cross and get on the end of it effectively.

I can understand why a centre back couldn’t cross but for Edwards, Aluko this is bread and butter stuff that should be natural and Bonne, Piggot, Chaplin should be drilled in knowing where the ball is going to hit. Everybody should be working on crossing and attacking crosses (not just corners!) and some players like Celina should be working a lot on both aspects.

yup, agreed, you'd think they would...

im not against crossing per see. Man city did a wonderful job last night with accurate cross to guys that switched it back into the box, as opposed to aimless humps (Edwards humping it into the Wycombe box springs to mind; keeper screwed up and Bonne scored. but it was a crap cross going nowhere).

its more that its seemingly our main route to goal and were not great at it as supported by that stat you've got there.

 

[Buckyohare]

Thoughts on what we need to do in the jan window?

Overall id summarise it as follows in realistic terms fo what I think cook will do as opposed to what I want him to do...:

Keeper-Walton is fine but need a perm or someone new to be no1.hladky is useless.

defence:

Toto has me hiding behind the sofa every time. he's a total liability. has to go.

I think cook would want another top cb who can pay a bit because Burges looks like he only thrives in a 3 (as per Acrington) and he'd be much better at rotherham where they get rid. ours need to play a little bit in this system and he's shaky. not sure why we signed him.

Edmundson; awesome.

full backs:

Either bad or too injured, sometimes both. JD isn't a marauding full back im surprised he got a new contract tbh. he's not cook's type.

Clemence is clearly being played as a '**** u' to the others from cook and/or because there's no choice with injuries , but these positions are so vital to cooks system and clemence and JD are not those guys. they are not going to overlap and double up as wingers. never. won't happen. KVY maybe but he's either been really good as a the winger but crap defending or injured. again.

reckon this is where he feels his side is weakest.

midfield:

god knows where we'd be without Morsy. still not sure we're seeing his best yet. cook loves him.

Evans, im not as against him as others. wish we'd use his height more and get hm into the box for some balls he can either connect with on the deck or with his head as he's tall. coo loves him, he's staying in the team.

Harper, showed initial promise, but cant see him coming in and doing better than Evans. bit of midfield version of Toto is you ask me. cook probably will persist.

dito for Carrol-just seems like he's yesterdays man if he cant force his way into a midfield that creates zilch? cook will lose him if he can?

attack:

for all the fan fare over our forwards we're not creating many chances and we're not scoring much anymore. my good old stats show that, as of now, we're in the bottom three for chance creation. Rotherham are top on that count, and top of the table. funny that? other teams with high chance creation rates are in the top places too.

I'd be happy to see Celina go in the Summer based on performances to date. would I spend a ton on him and his wages for these performances? no. Cook will probably not have the final say on him staying but would want him as he's a great player if the board say they; do I the deal?

fraser. no idea why we signed him when we don't play him in his optimal position. no idea if he wants him or not. he did sign hi after all...

Piggot. ditto.

Bonne. he's a keeper. I mean obviously he's not a keeper, but you get what I mean...

Edwards. im very unimpressed with him; his crossing is poor, he can't pick a pass. but I always hope his amazing dribbling can be accommodated into an effective role with a proper wing back combo that can deliver for us. cook probably wants him.

Chaplin. still not sure where's he's best used in this system but clearly up for it and very good. cooks man.

So for me. I think we need two really good players in at both full back positions as a primary objective as that could make the existing forwards work more effectively. I reckon cook would want to fill these spots too?

get Bonne at almost any cost. he wants it, we want it, thats a rare combo. Morsy came cos Boro wanted him off the books, and we're paying him more than they were. that's not the best reason to be here, bonne however is motivated to come and make it happen.

 

[Southcoastoldgaffer]

Good frank post Bucky, once I deciphered it! Sadly I agree about Celina, his best position has been out left. And thats where twinkle toes Edwards had our best 10 mins v Rotherham. If only we could
coach him to really deliver nailed on crosses.

 

[Buckyohare]

This is what JMs wiki entry says about his tactics and style:

Management styleEdit
McGreal has a reputation for playing "attacking, free-flowing" football with a "fluid 4–2–3–1 system".[74][75] He is able to work alongside a director of football or head of recruitment and work with and develop a young squad.[75]

He should be able to take on the current squad and fine tune it rather than some painful overhaul. Just depends how long we’ve got him I suppose. I can’t see anyone better right now that we could get. Should be fun with him around!

 

[itfcptc]

I'd have been happyish with McGreal coming in after Lambert but that was before I knew we'd be able to attract someone of Cook's calibre. There doesn't seem to be anyone out there on paper who we realistically can get better than Cook which I find underwhelming.

Many of the managers I'm thinking of also tend to be ones who build football clubs over time, clearly that's not something we're looking at as a club.. perhaps Warnock it is

 

[itfcptc]

In regards to tactics I'd like to see us play 3 Centre midfielders either as a 433 or 532

 

[Buckyohare]

Given the lack of players in the full back positions for 4231 to work well I suspect he might use 3 at the back for extra cover and let the full backs go forward with more confidence. Be interesting to see what the midfield and forward line looks like. I think he’ll want a less flashy team that is more solid, less porous at the back and can grind out a result, be it a draw away in these unsettled times. We don’t want gung go away at charlton and another collapse.

 

[Evesham]

. I think he’ll want a less flashy team that is more solid, less porous at the back and can grind out a result, be it a draw away in these unsettled times. We don’t want gung go away at charlton and another collapse.[/QUOTE]

I can see Mick nodding his head in approval Bucky

 

[Buckyohare]

. I think he’ll want a less flashy team that is more solid, less porous at the back and can grind out a result, be it a draw away in these unsettled times. We don’t want gung go away at charlton and another collapse.

I can see Mick nodding his head in approval Bucky [/QUOTE]
Do u reckon we should go all out still?

 

[Evesham]

I can see Mick nodding his head in approval Bucky

Do u reckon we should go all out still?[/QUOTE]

No idea to be honest, if we get a result he will be a saviour to some & it will be Cooks team to others.

I agree with you that we need to grind out a draw or snatch a win (Derby away! ) this is the start of a very difficult month fixture wise.

 

[Southcoastoldgaffer]

I think McG will sensibly stick to roughly the same team, with players in their best positions, but encourage them to play their natural game, forward looking and really play for each other not just individual talent on show. Not sure about fitness of Burns, Celina etc.

 

[Southcoastoldgaffer]

This one I will deffo be watching! He might put the Pig up for a real punch. You just never know, a startling quick early goal will give everyone a massive lift.
But we cant expect more than a hard fought draw....can we?