Sunderland

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Lord Jonjomort said:
They got beat again....
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Obviously as a staunch maggie I've been following their progress (not sure that's the right word there but hey ho) this season. For the last 2-3 months they've been probably in the bottom 3 for most of that time but only 3 or 4 points away from getting out of it, they keep losing but so do the teams around them...its absolute madness. It's not too dissimilar to the bottom of the prem. If they can muster 10 points together till the end of the season it may well save them but you just can't see where it's gonna come from. Their fielding 6 and 7 loan players most games, they've got 1st team players out on loan to get them off the wage bill and then there's their prized asset/highest earner, sat having a ****ing pot noodle and a **** at home come 3pm on a Sat. Apparently there was 27,000 there but that's what was announced which I think includes ticket sales, one of the lads I talk to at a customer site I go to reckons there was only about 20,000 in the ground (rough guess, I don't think he counted). They are properly ****ed if they go down like. They won't be able to ask for £300-£400 for a season ticket, most of their playing squad will have to be sold not to mention other club staff laid off. Will coleman stay or will he be peddled? They've got Boro at home next at the weekend, Boro will be on a high after their win last night and the mackems will of course be at a bit of a low after getting beat off Bolton but it's sort of a derby game so in theory they should should want to up their game and try and get one over their (other) north east rivals.
 
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cronemeister said:
Obviously as a staunch maggie I've been following their progress (not sure that's the right word there but hey ho) this season. For the last 2-3 months they've been probably in the bottom 3 for most of that time but only 3 or 4 points away from getting out of it, they keep losing but so do the teams around them...its absolute madness. It's not too dissimilar to the bottom of the prem. If they can muster 10 points together till the end of the season it may well save them but you just can't see where it's gonna come from. Their fielding 6 and 7 loan players most games, they've got 1st team players out on loan to get them off the wage bill and then there's their prized asset/highest earner, sat having a ****ing pot noodle and a **** at home come 3pm on a Sat. Apparently there was 27,000 there but that's what was announced which I think includes ticket sales, one of the lads I talk to at a customer site I go to reckons there was only about 20,000 in the ground (rough guess, I don't think he counted). They are properly ****ed if they go down like. They won't be able to ask for £300-£400 for a season ticket, most of their playing squad will have to be sold not to mention other club staff laid off. Will coleman stay or will he be peddled? They've got Boro at home next at the weekend, Boro will be on a high after their win last night and the mackems will of course be at a bit of a low after getting beat off Bolton but it's sort of a derby game so in theory they should should want to up their game and try and get one over their (other) north east rivals.
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The attendance figure will be based on match day tickets and season tickets sold for the match, obviously there will be quite a number of season ticket holders who will not have turned up, I was surprised at seeing the ground on tv on a couple of times then seeing the official attendance figure, as for the financials it may seem like doom but it may be better for them if they go into administration now, take the points hit and rebuild as a new corporate structure without the massive debt loading they have now. I actually think that just escaping from relegation may not be in the best interests of the club long term, if they repeat the cycles that they went through in the Premier League of just scraping through it will damage them even further in both debt and the atmosphere around the club, they need rid of Short really, Ashley has been bad but at least he backed the resilience of the club to bounce back from relegation twice at the first point of asking.
 
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Blacker-than-Knight said:
The attendance figure will be based on match day tickets and season tickets sold for the match, obviously there will be quite a number of season ticket holders who will not have turned up, I was surprised at seeing the ground on tv on a couple of times then seeing the official attendance figure, as for the financials it may seem like doom but it may be better for them if they go into administration now, take the points hit and rebuild as a new corporate structure without the massive debt loading they have now. I actually think that just escaping from relegation may not be in the best interests of the club long term, if they repeat the cycles that they went through in the Premier League of just scraping through it will damage them even further in both debt and the atmosphere around the club, they need rid of Short really, Ashley has been bad but at least he backed the resilience of the club to bounce back from relegation twice at the first point of asking.
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Ashley knows how to keep us roughly in the area he needs us, and will spend to make sure we don't dip below to be fair, because he's a good businessman. Not the only quality football fans want in an owner mind when your watching him spend naff all as soon as we're doing decent (only bought Anita the summer after 5th)
What's going on with Short right now is ****ing mind-boggling. Clearly he has enough money to live with the **** up, but any businessman worth his salt wouldn't want to see a football club-sized investment go to ****. Just amazing that Bain has been tasked with selling everything to buy virtually nothing. Are they in the mire that much they couldn't even gamble a little of the parachute payments on trying for promotion or actually just staying within that league?
 
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Blacker-than-Knight said:
The attendance figure will be based on match day tickets and season tickets sold for the match, obviously there will be quite a number of season ticket holders who will not have turned up, I was surprised at seeing the ground on tv on a couple of times then seeing the official attendance figure, as for the financials it may seem like doom but it may be better for them if they go into administration now, take the points hit and rebuild as a new corporate structure without the massive debt loading they have now. I actually think that just escaping from relegation may not be in the best interests of the club long term, if they repeat the cycles that they went through in the Premier League of just scraping through it will damage them even further in both debt and the atmosphere around the club, they need rid of Short really, Ashley has been bad but at least he backed the resilience of the club to bounce back from relegation twice at the first point of asking.
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Steady on. All Ashley did was nothing. The payment structure from the PL works a bit odd, I think something like Sept, £30m. Feb, £30m. May, £40m+.

NUFC never have a chance of spending the money before it arrives, whereas every other team spends that and often a little more in advance. So what happens is when we got relegated, we had a wodge of PL money to help us out, plus the parachute. Most would cover PL-level wages for the season ahead, some would be spent on high-end Championship players. It's why we stand such a good chance of bouncing back up. Conversely it's the reason why we struggle so badly under Ashley. The point of it, I suppose, is that we're relatively financially sound and unlikely to descend like Sunderland. Wolves are the absolute opposite, doing a Leeds and spending to achieve. If they don't go up - hugely unlikely - they'd have a massive problem paying the loans/debt. Wolves will likely continue the trend on promotion, spending big based on future earnings and borrowing a bit extra just in case. For the fans, that's what you want to see. A club TRYING to achieve something. But for Big Mike, it's about a balance sheet and protecting an asset.

Nobody wants to be like Sunderland, but you start to wonder what the point is in even following the club if it's just about getting by. I've always been of the mind that Mike would happily take 40 points every year before a ball is kicked. The actual football bit's quite the inconvenience. The Championship suits us better, at least we have lofty ambitions in the second tier. Sunderland will come back, and I daresay once the owner's gone, it won't matter the division, fans just want a team to believe in.
 
Lord Jonjomort said:
Steady on. All Ashley did was nothing. The payment structure from the PL works a bit odd, I think something like Sept, £30m. Feb, £30m. May, £40m+.

NUFC never have a chance of spending the money before it arrives, whereas every other team spends that and often a little more in advance. So what happens is when we got relegated, we had a wodge of PL money to help us out, plus the parachute. Most would cover PL-level wages for the season ahead, some would be spent on high-end Championship players. It's why we stand such a good chance of bouncing back up. Conversely it's the reason why we struggle so badly under Ashley. The point of it, I suppose, is that we're relatively financially sound and unlikely to descend like Sunderland. Wolves are the absolute opposite, doing a Leeds and spending to achieve. If they don't go up - hugely unlikely - they'd have a massive problem paying the loans/debt. Wolves will likely continue the trend on promotion, spending big based on future earnings and borrowing a bit extra just in case. For the fans, that's what you want to see. A club TRYING to achieve something. But for Big Mike, it's about a balance sheet and protecting an asset.

Nobody wants to be like Sunderland, but you start to wonder what the point is in even following the club if it's just about getting by. I've always been of the mind that Mike would happily take 40 points every year before a ball is kicked. The actual football bit's quite the inconvenience. The Championship suits us better, at least we have lofty ambitions in the second tier. Sunderland will come back, and I daresay once the owner's gone, it won't matter the division, fans just want a team to believe in.
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It'll be interesting to see how they approach their transfer business in the summer should they go up (unlikely that they won't). Spending big to get promoted is a very different kettle of fish to spending to stay in the PL, not that we would would know like !
 
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leez said:
well, i have done the honourable thing , and ( NOT ) signed it .
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I've signed it. I don't normally bother with ****e like that but I do genuinely feel for them. Putting the fact that it's Sunderland to one side, at the end of the day they are pretty much in the same boat as a lot of us toon fans. They want change and they want rid of their owner. Everything for them at the minute is a massive pile of ****, but it's not much different for us, it's just a bit more palatable as we are in the premier league, we have a world class manager and we are far from one of the best candidates to drop out of the division....so it's a nicer kind of ****e for us!

I'll still take a degree of satisfaction if they drop into League 1 but it might actually take that for Short to jog on. At the end of the day I want the derby days back but I want them to earn the right to play us again rather than us being relegated again.
 
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cronemeister said:
I've signed it. I don't normally bother with ****e like that but I do genuinely feel for them. Putting the fact that it's Sunderland to one side, at the end of the day they are pretty much in the same boat as a lot of us toon fans. They want change and they want rid of their owner. Everything for them at the minute is a massive pile of ****, but it's not much different for us, it's just a bit more palatable as we are in the premier league, we have a world class manager and we are far from one of the best candidates to drop out of the division....so it's a nicer kind of ****e for us!

I'll still take a degree of satisfaction if they drop into League 1 but it might actually take that for Short to jog on. At the end of the day I want the derby days back but I want them to earn the right to play us again rather than us being relegated again.
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best of luck to you
 
Lord Jonjomort said:
Steady on. All Ashley did was nothing. The payment structure from the PL works a bit odd, I think something like Sept, £30m. Feb, £30m. May, £40m+.

NUFC never have a chance of spending the money before it arrives, whereas every other team spends that and often a little more in advance. So what happens is when we got relegated, we had a wodge of PL money to help us out, plus the parachute. Most would cover PL-level wages for the season ahead, some would be spent on high-end Championship players. It's why we stand such a good chance of bouncing back up. Conversely it's the reason why we struggle so badly under Ashley. The point of it, I suppose, is that we're relatively financially sound and unlikely to descend like Sunderland. Wolves are the absolute opposite, doing a Leeds and spending to achieve. If they don't go up - hugely unlikely - they'd have a massive problem paying the loans/debt. Wolves will likely continue the trend on promotion, spending big based on future earnings and borrowing a bit extra just in case. For the fans, that's what you want to see. A club TRYING to achieve something. But for Big Mike, it's about a balance sheet and protecting an asset.

Nobody wants to be like Sunderland, but you start to wonder what the point is in even following the club if it's just about getting by. I've always been of the mind that Mike would happily take 40 points every year before a ball is kicked. The actual football bit's quite the inconvenience. The Championship suits us better, at least we have lofty ambitions in the second tier. Sunderland will come back, and I daresay once the owner's gone, it won't matter the division, fans just want a team to believe in.
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I must admit if Ashley can't afford it or doesn't want to pump his own money in because he knows his pockets will never be deep enough, then I'm glad we are not spending on the never never all the time. He has run us sensibly. Its not what the average fan wants to see, but personally I think doing a Sunderland is far worse.
 
Free-Dor said:
I must admit if Ashley can't afford it or doesn't want to pump his own money in because he knows his pockets will never be deep enough, then I'm glad we are not spending on the never never all the time. He has run us sensibly. Its not what the average fan wants to see, but personally I think doing a Sunderland is far worse.
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For all of Ashley's faults (of which there are many) he is a saint compared to Short. This is a fact that is missed by many, but it doesn't absolve Ashley of his erroneous running of the club during his tenure. We are a well run business and financially in a good position. Footballing wise, are not (not all faults are due to spending, more his decision making)
 
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Theresa Bae said:
For all of Ashley's faults (of which there are many) he is a saint compared to Short. This is a fact that is missed by many, but it doesn't absolve Ashley of his erroneous running of the club during his tenure. We are a well run business and financially in a good position. Footballing wise, are not (not all faults are due to spending, more his decision making)
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He has made lots of mistakes, and he is big enough to admit it too. He is quite candid about how football as a business is beyond his capabilities. He got into for one thing only, to grow his brand. Its worked massively and has been a success. He simply thought he could play at it on the side and win at that too. What he has found is football is a cruel mistress these days.

He struggles even now to get the football decisions correct. I mean Llambias was much maligned and abused. However he would appear to have been a far superior deal maker to Lee Charnley. I wonder if Rafa had had Llambias how he'd have got on. The thing is Ashley just never finds a way to align it all. I don't think its malice, its just he makes decisions which in other business you'd get away with, in football you don't. he has never got his head round that because he is an impulsive individual whereas the decisions should be taken with more care.
 
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Free-Dor said:
He has made lots of mistakes, and he is big enough to admit it too. He is quite candid about how football as a business is beyond his capabilities. He got into for one thing only, to grow his brand. Its worked massively and has been a success. He simply thought he could play at it on the side and win at that too. What he has found is football is a cruel mistress these days.

He struggles even now to get the football decisions correct. I mean Llambias was much maligned and abused. However he would appear to have been a far superior deal maker to Lee Charnley. I wonder if Rafa had had Llambias how he'd have got on. The thing is Ashley just never finds a way to align it all. I don't think its malice, its just he makes decisions which in other business you'd get away with, in football you don't. he has never got his head round that because he is an impulsive individual whereas the decisions should be taken with more care.
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He has the right intentions. Just isn't able to execute the plans properly.
 
Free-Dor said:
He has made lots of mistakes, and he is big enough to admit it too. He is quite candid about how football as a business is beyond his capabilities. He got into for one thing only, to grow his brand. Its worked massively and has been a success. He simply thought he could play at it on the side and win at that too. What he has found is football is a cruel mistress these days.

He struggles even now to get the football decisions correct. I mean Llambias was much maligned and abused. However he would appear to have been a far superior deal maker to Lee Charnley. I wonder if Rafa had had Llambias how he'd have got on. The thing is Ashley just never finds a way to align it all. I don't think its malice, its just he makes decisions which in other business you'd get away with, in football you don't. he has never got his head round that because he is an impulsive individual whereas the decisions should be taken with more care.
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Like with the MP's and Shirebrook, he'll admit his mistakes....on his terms, to specific people! It's all so very contrived I've never quite understood why you trust the bloke?

I think in part this is correct, in the sense of he's made mistakes, he doesn't get football decisions correct and its all beyond his capability. But not fully accurate. Would't so much say impulsive as pig-headed. After 11 years, you'd think by now he might get it. Nope. He just tries to sell, yet again. We've employed progressively less and less executives. He's not making as many mistakes purely because he's not making as many decisions. He's probably down to one a year. Strikes me he's always wanted to thumb his nose at everyone by knowing best, and in football has constantly ended up looking like a moron.

- "Ah, see, they want me to fire Alan for that headbutt....I'll show 'em"
- "They think I'll employ a competent manager....hello, Joe?"
- "These geordies love that stadium.....time to rename it"

These things aren't mistakes, that would imply something innocent in the way Ashley operates. They are very, very deliberate acts. You don't employ Joe Kinnear by mistake. You don't rename the stadium by mistake. He's an idiot, of that there can be no doubt - he trusted Tony Jimenez before ending up taking him to court over a few million quid that went missing. No, Ashley's no innocent bystander - he's duplicitous yet idiotic, pig-headed and brutal but also very simplistic. There's no great cover-up at NUFC, it's all exactly how it looks - as you say, an advertising vehicle, for free, with money owed to fatty and the club able to spend every penny it generates. He doesn't take anything out bar free advertising, gives his mates a few extra quid for being mates (which club doesn't rob from the poor to pay the rich?) and hasn't a clue - nor a care - about anything else. We're just very, very lucky that the SD business model he applies to NUFC happens to ensure financial stability and bouncability.
 
Lord Jonjomort said:
Like with the MP's and Shirebrook, he'll admit his mistakes....on his terms, to specific people! It's all so very contrived I've never quite understood why you trust the bloke?

I think in part this is correct, in the sense of he's made mistakes, he doesn't get football decisions correct and its all beyond his capability. But not fully accurate. Would't so much say impulsive as pig-headed. After 11 years, you'd think by now he might get it. Nope. He just tries to sell, yet again. We've employed progressively less and less executives. He's not making as many mistakes purely because he's not making as many decisions. He's probably down to one a year. Strikes me he's always wanted to thumb his nose at everyone by knowing best, and in football has constantly ended up looking like a moron.

- "Ah, see, they want me to fire Alan for that headbutt....I'll show 'em"
- "They think I'll employ a competent manager....hello, Joe?"
- "These geordies love that stadium.....time to rename it"

These things aren't mistakes, that would imply something innocent in the way Ashley operates. They are very, very deliberate acts. You don't employ Joe Kinnear by mistake. You don't rename the stadium by mistake. He's an idiot, of that there can be no doubt - he trusted Tony Jimenez before ending up taking him to court over a few million quid that went missing. No, Ashley's no innocent bystander - he's duplicitous yet idiotic, pig-headed and brutal but also very simplistic. There's no great cover-up at NUFC, it's all exactly how it looks - as you say, an advertising vehicle, for free, with money owed to fatty and the club able to spend every penny it generates. He doesn't take anything out bar free advertising, gives his mates a few extra quid for being mates (which club doesn't rob from the poor to pay the rich?) and hasn't a clue - nor a care - about anything else. We're just very, very lucky that the SD business model he applies to NUFC happens to ensure financial stability and bouncability.
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Sorry I don't buy this whole conspiracy theory. I'm not daft enough to think the bloke isn't ruthless or some things haven't been done with a tinge of vengeance. He is human afterall and its a common trait. When we are wronged, whether its of our own doing, we often lash out. By and large though he has made mistakes without malice. He simply doesn't understand the business and never will. It was a dream ticket for him. Own a PL footballer club, have a bit of fun, make loads of money off the back with SD. Unfortunately he has found it isn't much fun and whereas he has profited well in his other business, it has meant more exposure (not positive either) for a man who likes to be behind the scenes.

I don't think he appoints Llambias and gives him a succession of managers he knows are doomed to fail. He thought they could do the job. I don't think he appoints Rafa and lets Charnley stay on knowing Charnley will be his yes man and carry out his devilish plan to **** Rafa over. He thought he was appointing a man from within who knows the club inside out, has been around football for over 10 years, who can help the man the fans wanted get the job done within the confines of what we have. Fans want us to spend TV money we don't yet have. It doesn't matter if its coming, or what other clubs are doing, the policy is clear, he is not putting the club (his asset) at risk. Its one gamble he doesn't see as having an upside because the top of the table and safety from impending death cannot be bought by the money we'd spend on the never never. Its not enough.

He doesn't do it because he cares about Newcastle United in the way we do, he does it because its his asset and he therefore cares about it in the same way any business he gets involved in. He has quite a bit tied up in us. He become entrenched in a financial web its difficult to untangle himself from. Its just not as easy as some fans like to think.
 
I think they need a change of ownership. I know of a billionaire who is hoping to be in the market for a new club in the summer. He loves a bargain too.

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