Suarez News (#ONTOPIC)

[Tobes]

See there you go again! You have no idea what will happen to his price yet you will claim that Suarez is a " multi million £ asset sat depreciating by the day" without the slightest shred of evidence to support that contention. Whereas I have forwarded a reasoned argument to support my contention that his value will rise. So exactly who is supposed to be thick in that case. An agent-provocateur without an argument or somebody who presents reasons for their opinion. So I suggest that you take your own advice and "have a word with yourself".

Your argument has more holes than a Swiss cheese & is driven by your desire to paint a 'rosey' picture onto what is a ****ty scenario.

I stated that he'd be a multi £m pound asset depreciating by the day, as in the scenario you painted i.e. not playing for 5 months, he ****ing would be, it's purely common sense that dictates that, how you can attempt to argue otherwise is beyond me. As he'd be sat in the stiffs & 5 months in, that would be extremely awkward for all concerned & you'd be more than eager to get rid. Given that there's been no takers barring Arsenal this window, I've no idea why you seem to think they'll be queuing up come January eager to part with more than they could have bought him for this window, after he'd have spent 5 months not playing.

If however, he just got on with it & played in the same manner he was last season, he'd not depreciate before the next window imo, I'm not sure his value would increase though & there's no way of knowing either.

 

[Foredeckdave]

Your argument has more holes than a Swiss cheese & is driven by your desire to paint a 'rosey' picture onto what is a ****ty scenario.

I stated that he'd be a multi £m pound asset depreciating by the day, as in the scenario you painted i.e. not playing for 5 months, he ****ing would be, it's purely common sense that dictates that, how you can attempt to argue otherwise is beyond me. As he'd be sat in the stiffs & 5 months in, that would be extremely awkward for all concerned & you'd be more than eager to get rid. Given that there's been no takers barring Arsenal this window, I've no idea why you seem to think they'll be queuing up come January eager to part with more than they could have bought him for this window, after he'd have spent 5 months not playing.

If however, he just got on with it & played in the same manner he was last season, he'd not depreciate before the next window imo, I'm not sure his value would increase though & there's no way of knowing either.

Let me lift your eyes slightly. How much is a bottle of water worth? Then give me the same answer if that bottle of water was on offer in the middle of the Sahara Dessert? Even if Suarez had only been playing internationals and training (which is part of his contractual duties) he would have a premium value to those clubs who had qualified for the knock-out phase of the CL and needed to improve their squad. That niche market is in addition to the larger market that LFC can tap at leisure once this window closes.

After all we need to top £22M to make a profit. The £40,000,001 figure is not a valuation as it was both based on a wrong 'assumption' and rejected by Liverpool. Neither Henry of Liverpool have ever named a valuation figure so you have no way of knowing if whatever fee is agreed, it is a depreciated figure.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

in fairness... if this is all about january... anything over 40mil = dave is right... anything below tobes is right. why not just make a bet.

oh and wages? pah.. a guy breaks a leg and you pay his wages. Thats the way it goes. We'll just have to see if he plays by then

 

[Tobes]

Let me lift your eyes slightly. How much is a bottle of water worth? Then give me the same answer if that bottle of water was on offer in the middle of the Sahara Dessert? Even if Suarez had only been playing internationals and training (which is part of his contractual duties) he would have a premium value to those clubs who had qualified for the knock-out phase of the CL and needed to improve their squad. That niche market is in addition to the larger market that LFC can tap at leisure once this window closes.

After all we need to top £22M to make a profit. The £40,000,001 figure is not a valuation as it was both based on a wrong 'assumption' and rejected by Liverpool. Neither Henry of Liverpool have ever named a valuation figure so you have no way of knowing if whatever fee is agreed, it is a depreciated figure.

What was that about patronising from earlier? lol, seriously David, don't even bother.

As for your actual point. Turning your analogy back on itself, you're assuming that the man with the thirst is AN other club. When if that scenario unfolded the man who'd be parched would be you lot, as you'd need to get him off your books & off your hands, as you'd be a star man down for a start off, that's before factoring in wages, depreciation, nuisance factor & the awful stench, that an ongoing saga like that would leave around Melwood.

As for his value, £40m is a factual bid, so therefore the market has currently set his value at £40m, you're refusing to accept it, but there's been no other higher bids. If you take less than £40m for him in January you've effectively 'lost' the difference between the sale price & £40m as that's what you can currently return for that asset. Nice try though

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Using your argument Tobes it comes down to perceived loss rather than Dave's argument of actual loss.

 

[Tobes]

Using your argument Tobes it comes down to perceived loss rather than Dave's argument of actual loss.

Dave's argument was that he'd be worth more than he is today, his bringing up of the original purchase price is a red herring, as the debate was never about whether you'd make a book profit or loss on him, it was about his value today compared to January.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Understand that but it's still a perceived loss. We could have had £40m this summer sell January for say £35m - we make a smaller profit rather than a bigger loss - semantics yes but we never had the £40m in our hands so lost nothing.

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

Gotta agree, we do not currently know his worth and so can't say what was lost if he's sold in Jan.

Arsenal's offer doesn't mean his fee is 40 million though Rodgers says it's more but the fact Arsenal are competition for 4th would obviously increase the fee.

A lot of this is also based it seem on him not performing, which we've yet to see about, he's got a ban and international duty, if he cools his heels and comes back to play, to suit his own career, and performs and we get what we want for him there will still be those who will not back down and say he still lost value and we could have gotten more. One of those no win situations imo.

Even if suarez doesn't play till Jan it is not going to affect his fee hardly, he's not a crate of spoiling vegetables ffs.

Any reduction on his fee will be one year less on his contract if he went next summer and the damage he's already caused to his own reputation which adds an element of risk to signing him. playing well and keeping his head down for a few months can repair some of that damage and theoretically increase his value.

 

[Tobes]

Understand that but it's still a perceived loss. We could have had £40m this summer sell January for say £35m - we make a smaller profit rather than a bigger loss - semantics yes but we never had the £40m in our hands so lost nothing.

You're right it is semantics, but 'perceived' or otherwise the salient point is that if you end up taking less than the £40m that's already on the table then you're missing out on cash that could have been banked.

Anyway, I'd say that particular horse has been flogged, so moving on.....

Assuming Henry is as good as his word & he blocks any move for him this month, how do you see it panning out with him in the short term? i.e. Do you think he'll do what Rodgers has insisted on & apologise & therefore re-join the side as if nothings happened? Or do you think he's liable to spit the dummy & sulk for months?

& if he does come back into the side how do you think the crowd will react to him when he comes back?

 

[Foredeckdave]

You're right it is semantics, but 'perceived' or otherwise the salient point is that if you end up taking less than the £40m that's already on the table then you're missing out on cash that could have been banked.

Anyway, I'd say that particular horse has been flogged, so moving on.....

Assuming Henry is as good as his word & he blocks any move for him this month, how do you see it panning out with him in the short term? i.e. Do you think he'll do what Rodgers has insisted on & apologise & therefore re-join the side as if nothings happened? Or do you think he's liable to spit the dummy & sulk for months?

& if he does come back into the side how do you think the crowd will react to him when he comes back?

There speaks a bean counter - knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

In terms of Premiership clubs Suarez has always had a different value than he would have to clubs in other leagues. The closer the Premiership club was to being a direct competitor for next years CL spots then the higher the premium on that value. In the light of that policy the £40+1 offer did not meet anything like value and was therefore rejected.

Suarez's value is therefore a flexible sum and has to be considered in relation to the strategic advantage of Liverpool Football Club. That being the case then any offer over £22M that the board of LFC considered as being strategically acceptable constitutes a profit. LFC have not missed out on cash as they never accepted the offer as meeting their valuation!

BTW Henry would not be blocking any move for Suarez he would be rejecting them - there is a world of difference.

 

[Tobes]

There speaks a bean counter - knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

In terms of Premiership clubs Suarez has always had a different value than he would have to clubs in other leagues. The closer the Premiership club was to being a direct competitor for next years CL spots then the higher the premium on that value. In the light of that policy the £40+1 offer did not meet anything like value and was therefore rejected.

Suarez's value is therefore a flexible sum and has to be considered in relation to the strategic advantage of Liverpool Football Club. That being the case then any offer over £22M that the board of LFC considered as being strategically acceptable constitutes a profit. LFC have not missed out on cash as they never accepted the offer as meeting their valuation!

BTW Henry would not be blocking any move for Suarez he would be rejecting them - there is a world of difference.

The fact that Liverpool do no want to sell to a rival is their choice & a perfectly acceptable strategic decision, but it's not what was being discussed.

Arsenal bid £40m, this bid has not been bettered, or matched by anyone else, however, they were prepared to pay it, so they therefore value the player at £40m. This therefore sets his current market value at £40m. You are not prepared to accept that sum, irrespective of the rival factor, as you have clearly said you value him much higher. That is of course your prerogative, but the market price is ultimately set by what someone is prepared to pay & that is currently £40m.

If they take less than that in the future then they're taking less than the current market value, that's a simple & undeniable fact.

p.s. Blocking / rejecting, lol pedantry at it's finest.

 

[Khedron]

The fact that Liverpool do no want to sell to a rival is their choice & a perfectly acceptable strategic decision, but it's not what was being discussed.

Arsenal bid £40m, this bid has not been bettered, or matched by anyone else, however, they were prepared to pay it, so therefore value the player at £40m. This therefore sets his current market value at £40m. You are not prepared to accept that sum, irrespective of the rival factor, as you have clearly said you value him much higher. That is of course your prerogative, but the market price is ultimately set by what someone is prepared to pay & that is currently £40m.

If they take less than that in the future then they're taking less than the current market value, that's a simple & undeniable fact.

p.s. Blocking / rejecting, lol pedantry at it's finest.

you are right that the market value depends upon how much someone is willing to pay but also what the seller is willing to accept and football is a strange market in the sense that the products are people with their own inputs and no two products are exactly the same

so equally we can claim that the market value of Suarez is greater than £40m because no one has been able to buy a Suarez for £40m or less

market value is set by a sale and no sale has taken place all we know is you can't get Suarez for £40m (at least if you are an English team competing for the top 4 in the premier league)

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

There is also the Torres situation.

I have no doubt if a thread was posted prior to him leaving that the 50 million price tag would have been laughed at if Liverpool said that was the asking price. People can say Chelsea were stupid enough to offer it, but it isn't only Chelsea spending that kind of cash and Arsenal were not far off that amount for Suarez, had we agreed to negotiate we'd have done better than the 40+1 offer, no doubt at all about that. We'd have pushed that amount up IF we agreed to negotiate.

Different clubs in different situations will make different offers.

Don't think 5 months will change that unless Suarez does himself harm by the way he carries himself. A lot of it is now in his hands.

Despite how opposing fans feel, and how the media report it, other clubs would agree with what Liverpool have done here. Club before player. Team before individual and common sense of not strengthening another team looking for the same CL spot.

 

[Tobes]

There is also the Torres situation.

I have no doubt if a thread was posted prior to him leaving that the 50 million price tag would have been laughed at if Liverpool said that was the asking price. People can say Chelsea were stupid enough to offer it, but it isn't only Chelsea spending that kind of cash and Arsenal were not far off that amount for Suarez, had we agreed to negotiate we'd have done better than the 40+1 offer, no doubt at all about that. We'd have pushed that amount up IF we agreed to negotiate.

Different clubs in different situations will make different offers.

Don't think 5 months will change that unless Suarez does himself harm by the way he carries himself. A lot of it is now in his hands.

Despite how opposing fans feel, and how the media report it, other clubs would agree with what Liverpool have done here. Club before player. Team before individual and common sense of not strengthening another team looking for the same CL spot.

**** me I agree with you.

I'm off for a lie down.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

well tobes honestly he aint a house...

his value is indeed what you can get for him which is alternatively set by that idiots like PSG and monaco and city and chelsea pay... ie 55mil. If these set a precedence for similar players like falcao and cavani then you can infer a pirce of your own

alternatively again you can say barca paid x for neymar so thats all he's worth. in fact neymar is worth 60mil anyday now he's under contract.

For me though.. "profit" over 22mil is not for me. the guy is worth X. Is that 40mil plus one pound.. fine... ok so waht if it is.

I personally only value him around 35mil If feel we are quids in at 40mil and 50mil = huge. why? no real pace, trickery but damaged goods and a loose cannon. I'm willing to bet something silly for not606 that should suarez be sold for less than 40mil in january. However it's quid pro quo. what'll you bet (something silly) if he goes for 40 mil plus 2 pounds.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

There is also the Torres situation.

I have no doubt if a thread was posted prior to him leaving that the 50 million price tag would have been laughed at if Liverpool said that was the asking price. People can say Chelsea were stupid enough to offer it, but it isn't only Chelsea spending that kind of cash and Arsenal were not far off that amount for Suarez, had we agreed to negotiate we'd have done better than the 40+1 offer, no doubt at all about that. We'd have pushed that amount up IF we agreed to negotiate.

Different clubs in different situations will make different offers.

Don't think 5 months will change that unless Suarez does himself harm by the way he carries himself. A lot of it is now in his hands.

Despite how opposing fans feel, and how the media report it, other clubs would agree with what Liverpool have done here. Club before player. Team before individual and common sense of not strengthening another team looking for the same CL spot.

What about the Emirates cup?

 

[saintanton]

There is also the Torres situation.

I have no doubt if a thread was posted prior to him leaving that the 50 million price tag would have been laughed at if Liverpool said that was the asking price. People can say Chelsea were stupid enough to offer it, but it isn't only Chelsea spending that kind of cash and Arsenal were not far off that amount for Suarez, had we agreed to negotiate we'd have done better than the 40+1 offer, no doubt at all about that. We'd have pushed that amount up IF we agreed to negotiate.

Different clubs in different situations will make different offers.

Don't think 5 months will change that unless Suarez does himself harm by the way he carries himself. A lot of it is now in his hands.

Despite how opposing fans feel, and how the media report it, other clubs would agree with what Liverpool have done here. Club before player. Team before individual and common sense of not strengthening another team looking for the same CL spot.

I think all genuine football fans would applaud the stance the club has made. However the partisan nature of the game means few will be prepared to admit it openly.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

You're right it is semantics, but 'perceived' or otherwise the salient point is that if you end up taking less than the £40m that's already on the table then you're missing out on cash that could have been banked.

Anyway, I'd say that particular horse has been flogged, so moving on.....

Assuming Henry is as good as his word & he blocks any move for him this month, how do you see it panning out with him in the short term? i.e. Do you think he'll do what Rodgers has insisted on & apologise & therefore re-join the side as if nothings happened? Or do you think he's liable to spit the dummy & sulk for months?

& if he does come back into the side how do you think the crowd will react to him when he comes back?

I'd like to think that there's a principle at stake that no value can be placed upon. Sometimes when you make a stand you lose out on more profit but like to think retained your integrity. Sell your house to a developer for £200k or a needy family who offered you £185k - the choice tells you something about the character of the seller.

I think it'll be a private apology. Any further word from Rodgers [hopefully not] but if there is will be it's been dealt with to satisfaction. Suarez loves football and can't see him giving less than his best once he realises he has to stay. I've been surprised by fan reaction so far in their warmth to him since this broke so really couldn't guess what reception he will get at Anfield - expect more 'you know what you are' from rival fans ................ when do we play Arsenal

 

[saintanton]

well tobes honestly he aint a house...

his value is indeed what you can get for him which is alternatively set by that idiots like PSG and monaco and city and chelsea pay... ie 55mil. If these set a precedence for similar players like falcao and cavani then you can infer a pirce of your own

alternatively again you can say barca paid x for neymar so thats all he's worth. in fact neymar is worth 60mil anyday now he's under contract.

For me though.. "profit" over 22mil is not for me. the guy is worth X. Is that 40mil plus one pound.. fine... ok so waht if it is.

I personally only value him around 35mil If feel we are quids in at 40mil and 50mil = huge. why? no real pace, trickery but damaged goods and a loose cannon. I'm willing to bet something silly for not606 that should suarez be sold for less than 40mil in january. However it's quid pro quo. what'll you bet (something silly) if he goes for 40 mil plus 2 pounds.

Tobes will bet his signed photo of dave that he keeps on his mantelpiece.

 

[Tobes]

Tobes will bet his signed photo of dave that he keeps on his mantelpiece.

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MITO - we should arrange a suitable bet mate, let the other posters decide the forfeit for the loser