So, looking like 12 points behind ...

[RebelBhoy]

I enjoyed reading that Psychosomatic.

Not being sycophantic, or even because I am on non argumentative mode but that was a very considered piece. Not sure I agree with it all but it is your opinion and it is well presented. Fair play.

Harry...I'll talk to you in 6 days.

 

[Null]

What would you like to see them do, Pud?

And to all-comers: do you think the board maybe feel painted into a corner by circumstance, unable to move against a man who, until recently – and maybe even still, I don’t know – engendered such an understandably intense tribal loyalty?

In purely human terms, it would maybe feel like a bafflingly crass and sad ending to push the man out the door. If he walked away, of course, with some stirring talk of “what’s best for the club I love”, this may solve the problem – whatever the “problem” may be.

If I try to put on a specifically Celtic hat, I’d look at the available alternatives and wonder if I might not be best sticking with what I’ve got for the time being. I may also ask myself if this was any way to repay a man who stuck with the club – and clearly gave of his best, even if this wasn’t good enough – whilst having his life threatened for doing so.

The hard headed may say there is no place for such sentiment in football. But actually, there probably is. And if there isn’t, there ought to be. I think roundabout now would be a pretty good time to give the guy a break, rather than running the risk of looking like the sort of people who were only ever prepared to do so if “winning” was still on the cards. How hard is it to profess a loyalty and undying support, after all, whilst homing in on the league? Anyone could do that.

So a few games of football have been messily blown? Big ****ing deal. He may only guide the team to second in the league? Oh no. My heart bleeds for your suffering, I’m sure.

Get behind him and crack on. That would be my neutral advice.

Perspective, people, perspective.

Alrighty Psychosomatic

I've never been a Lennon (as Manager) fan...I felt his appointment pandered to the masses who wanted a "Celtic minded" manager (whatever that is) and was the cheap option what with having to pay Mowbray's wages!

Being the manager of Celtic requires someone with experience or someone who has served an apprenticeship with the club- working their way through the ranks! Not someone who had a few games in charge of the youth/reserve team.

Lennon was thrown in at the deep end and did well last season. In a league where only two teams are realistically able to win the league, the fact that Celtic finished second was taking with almost good grace and Lennon was allowed as settling in period - never seen that before!!

However, close season had me troubled! Our lack of activity was worrying especially as most fans knew what we needed. A goalkeeper who will save you points, at least one competent CB with footballing ability plus a back to basics CB who takes no nonsense, a creative attacking midfielder and a big old fashioned Striker - a target man, a bully, a ball winner!

However, Lennon (or the board) seemed happy with a 3rd choice keeper on loan (who, in my opinion, isn't good enough), a freebie CB who has looked Ok sometimes and lost at others, a CB/DMF who looks like a prospect for the future and a Striker who, at the time of writing, looks worse than our options on the bench!!

That, to me is not progression, in the way Celtic have played this season appears to have taken a step back! Players no longer seem keen to play for Lennon or try as hard as they did last season!

If this is the case, then Lennon's man management skills need to be looked at as he is having trouble motivating his big players - personality clashes?

There are many free agents out there I think would jump at the chance to mange Celtic with good records - the Celtic board needs to show ambition and win the title back.

In the two horse race that is the SPL - as the huns once said - 2nd is nothing.

Excuse typos - I have a broken finger!

 

[Null]

all these people who don't want Lennon as manager , look at the big picture , who else is there ?? Rangers have a rookie manager , the problem is scottish football , Would Lambert come ??? No, would o'neill come ??? No

How many season has McCoist worked with Smith at Rangers/Scotland learning from a manager who knows what it takes to win titles??

 

[Psychosomatic]

I enjoyed reading that Psychosomatic.

Not being sycophantic, or even because I am on non argumentative mode but that was a very considered piece. Not sure I agree with it all but it is your opinion and it is well presented. Fair play.

Harry...I'll talk to you in 6 days.

Nice one, thanks.

I hope you’re enjoying your self-imposed isolation in The Argument Ward? I was going to come over and gloat last night, poke you with a stick – maybe lob in a sectarian insult or two for good measure – but suddenly thought better of it.

Give it time……

 

[Psychosomatic]

Alrighty Psychosomatic

I've never been a Lennon (as Manager) fan...I felt his appointment pandered to the masses who wanted a "Celtic minded" manager (whatever that is) and was the cheap option what with having to pay Mowbray's wages!

Being the manager of Celtic requires someone with experience or someone who has served an apprenticeship with the club- working their way through the ranks! Not someone who had a few games in charge of the youth/reserve team.

Lennon was thrown in at the deep end and did well last season. In a league where only two teams are realistically able to win the league, the fact that Celtic finished second was taking with almost good grace and Lennon was allowed as settling in period - never seen that before!!

However, close season had me troubled! Our lack of activity was worrying especially as most fans knew what we needed. A goalkeeper who will save you points, at least one competent CB with footballing ability plus a back to basics CB who takes no nonsense, a creative attacking midfielder and a big old fashioned Striker - a target man, a bully, a ball winner!

However, Lennon (or the board) seemed happy with a 3rd choice keeper on loan (who, in my opinion, isn't good enough), a freebie CB who has looked Ok sometimes and lost at others, a CB/DMF who looks like a prospect for the future and a Striker who, at the time of writing, looks worse than our options on the bench!!

That, to me is not progression, in the way Celtic have played this season appears to have taken a step back! Players no longer seem keen to play for Lennon or try as hard as they did last season!

If this is the case, then Lennon's man management skills need to be looked at as he is having trouble motivating his big players - personality clashes?

There are many free agents out there I think would jump at the chance to mange Celtic with good records - the Celtic board needs to show ambition and win the title back.

In the two horse race that is the SPL - as the huns once said - 2nd is nothing.

Excuse typos - I have a broken finger!

Bad luck about the broken finger, obviously, although quite why you would break your finger is beyond me. Have a word with yourself, okay?

Hello. Thanks for such a good response.

Interesting stuff about Lennon being “Celtic-minded”. I thought “Celtic-minded” simply meant that someone was a Celtic supporter – you could see why I might – until someone on this site put me right. (I think it was DevAdvocate.)

Anyway, whether someone is Celtic-minded or not (such a horrible term) is never going to be a concern of mine - but yes, I'm aware of the fact that he may appeal to or repel people in roughly equal measure because of the old Ireland/sectarian/Catholic/Protestant type of thing, but that's a different argument to the one I'm about to make - and I’ve only really been interested in Neil Lennon since reading his autobiography some years ago. And the reason I didn’t believe he was a sensible choice for the club was primarily due to his mental illness (and the possibly related combustible nature of his character) – which he dealt with quite beautifully in his book, as you may know, and has continued to do so in every interview I’ve ever read since. (And in case you’re wondering why I would read such a book – not by any means my normal reading material – I was forced to: stuck on a plane with nothing to read, an agony, I read the book of the guy sleeping beside me. I’m glad I did, it was good.)

Nothing in his book suggested to me, however, that he had a mind capable of withstanding great – and by this I mean “phenomenal” – pressure/stress. It simply looked (and looks) too brittle and fragile. There is a lot of ignorant bullshit around the subject of mental health - and I’m by no means suggesting that an illness like Lennon’s, by default, precludes a productive and fruitful working life – and the mindless may use it as a means to jeer and belittle their target. I’ve no real time for that. (Never minding the fact I’ve been very happily depressed since the age of, roughly, thirteen. I wouldn’t have it any other way.)

Bouts of the illness, as Lennon very frankly admits, may strike him at any time. It’s the nature of the disease. My first glimpse of Lennon this season came when you were playing at Aberdeen – the camera very briefly caught him, moving up the touchline (it was still 0-0), and I immediately thought “he’s not well”. Watching him (more closely) since, I’ve seen nothing to change my mind. There is anguish about the progression of some ultimately irrelevant football match and then there’s an anguish that tears at the soul. He’s presently suffering from the latter, I believe, and it’s affecting his ability to productively, or at least consistently, control the former.

I’m no expert - but I’m good, to be fair - and I’ll leave it up to you to decide whether there is evidence of a cognitive disrepair at work and whether his judgement may be clouded as a result. Decision-making processes are amongst the first of the casualties as a depressed mind keels before the destabilising onslaught of pitch blackness.

All of this was predictable and preventable, of course, but the board at Celtic Park saw things different. Fair enough. But now that they’re in bed with the man – as you all are, by extension – I just hope you have the decency to stick with him, not least because extenuating circumstances make it feel like there is so much more than mere football at stake. There is no particular reason he can’t eventually come good (a change of medication might be a start) and he may be a great manager in the making. Who knows? If he has good people around him, he'll be grand.

Honest to God I talk too much. I’m going to stop, okay, but I would have loved to have gone into some of the other things you were saying. I think it’s probably enough for the time being, however, that I appear to have suggested that you lot have a total dribbler in the dugout.

Word.

 

[RebelBhoy]

Nice one, thanks.

I hope you’re enjoying your self-imposed isolation in The Argument Ward? I was going to come over and gloat last night, poke you with a stick – maybe lob in a sectarian insult or two for good measure – but suddenly thought better of it.

Give it time……

It is quite serene. The more I am determined not to argue, the less I see to argue about and the less I can be bothered arguing.... maybe that is because a couple of folk seem to have taken a sabbatical?

 

[The Raging Oxter]

Two things Psychosomatic.

I often engage in manager watching during games and I came to the conclusion long ago that most of them look unwell at many points during their career unless they're like SAF and are very successful. A good example of this is Arsene Wenger who I saw standing at the touchline of a recent game (I think it was the game they lost to Blackburn) and my first thought was he looked a likely candidate for a heart attack.

Of course, he was under great stress at the time (more so than usual) so it comes as no great surprise that he should look that way.

The second point is specifically to do with Neil Lennon's mental illness and his time as Celtic manager. I haven't read his autobiography and have no interest in doing so and therefore have no great understanding of his condition. It strikes me though that if a man can come through what he went through last season, both on and off the pitch, and still wants to continue in the same job then he must be very strong mentally.

As I said though, I have no real insight into mental health issues so it could be that Lennon's problems are manifesting themselves in a way that's not noticeable to your mere supporter but is affecting the players in some way, whether it be directly or indirectly.

Only time and leaked newspaper stories will prove if that is the case.

 

[Null]

Bad luck about the broken finger, obviously, although quite why you would break your finger is beyond me. Have a word with yourself, okay?

Hello. Thanks for such a good response.

Interesting stuff about Lennon being “Celtic-minded”. I thought “Celtic-minded” simply meant that someone was a Celtic supporter – you could see why I might – until someone on this site put me right. (I think it was DevAdvocate.)

Anyway, whether someone is Celtic-minded or not (such a horrible term) is never going to be a concern of mine - but yes, I'm aware of the fact that he may appeal to or repel people in roughly equal measure because of the old Ireland/sectarian/Catholic/Protestant type of thing, but that's a different argument to the one I'm about to make - and I’ve only really been interested in Neil Lennon since reading his autobiography some years ago. And the reason I didn’t believe he was a sensible choice for the club was primarily due to his mental illness (and the possibly related combustible nature of his character) – which he dealt with quite beautifully in his book, as you may know, and has continued to do so in every interview I’ve ever read since. (And in case you’re wondering why I would read such a book – not by any means my normal reading material – I was forced to: stuck on a plane with nothing to read, an agony, I read the book of the guy sleeping beside me. I’m glad I did, it was good.)

Nothing in his book suggested to me, however, that he had a mind capable of withstanding great – and by this I mean “phenomenal” – pressure/stress. It simply looked (and looks) too brittle and fragile. There is a lot of ignorant bullshit around the subject of mental health - and I’m by no means suggesting that an illness like Lennon’s, by default, precludes a productive and fruitful working life – and the mindless may use it as a means to jeer and belittle their target. I’ve no real time for that. (Never minding the fact I’ve been very happily depressed since the age of, roughly, thirteen. I wouldn’t have it any other way.)

Bouts of the illness, as Lennon very frankly admits, may strike him at any time. It’s the nature of the disease. My first glimpse of Lennon this season came when you were playing at Aberdeen – the camera very briefly caught him, moving up the touchline (it was still 0-0), and I immediately thought “he’s not well”. Watching him (more closely) since, I’ve seen nothing to change my mind. There is anguish about the progression of some ultimately irrelevant football match and then there’s an anguish that tears at the soul. He’s presently suffering from the latter, I believe, and it’s affecting his ability to productively, or at least consistently, control the former.

I’m no expert - but I’m good, to be fair - and I’ll leave it up to you to decide whether there is evidence of a cognitive disrepair at work and whether his judgement may be clouded as a result. Decision-making processes are amongst the first of the casualties as a depressed mind keels before the destabilising onslaught of pitch blackness.

All of this was predictable and preventable, of course, but the board at Celtic Park saw things different. Fair enough. But now that they’re in bed with the man – as you all are, by extension – I just hope you have the decency to stick with him, not least because extenuating circumstances make it feel like there is so much more than mere football at stake. There is no particular reason he can’t eventually come good (a change of medication might be a start) and he may be a great manager in the making. Who knows? If he has good people around him, he'll be grand.

Honest to God I talk too much. I’m going to stop, okay, but I would have loved to have gone into some of the other things you were saying. I think it’s probably enough for the time being, however, that I appear to have suggested that you lot have a total dribbler in the dugout.

Word.

An interesting POV Psychosomatic ... You talk a lot of sense. I don't know a lot about Neil Lennon's heath issues - other than what is "written" in the tabliod press - as I haven't read his book but I do have to agree with your view that, at times, Neil Lennon does not look well/comfortable or happy which could be a result of any underlying mental health issues he suffers from.

Tha part highlighted above stands out for me in your point! That is rather more eloquent than

a total dribbler in the dugout.

 

[Psychosomatic]

It is quite serene. The more I am determined not to argue, the less I see to argue about and the less I can be bothered arguing.... maybe that is because a couple of folk seem to have taken a sabbatical?

Serene? Oh dear. You sound ill. You need to get back out there, Rebel, or you’ll go properly soft in the head. It’ll be like a superhero losing his thing because of the thing being taken away or something.

Fact.

 

[Psychosomatic]

Two things Psychosomatic.

I often engage in manager watching during games and I came to the conclusion long ago that most of them look unwell at many points during their career unless they're like SAF and are very successful. A good example of this is Arsene Wenger who I saw standing at the touchline of a recent game (I think it was the game they lost to Blackburn) and my first thought was he looked a likely candidate for a heart attack.

Of course, he was under great stress at the time (more so than usual) so it comes as no great surprise that he should look that way.

The second point is specifically to do with Neil Lennon's mental illness and his time as Celtic manager. I haven't read his autobiography and have no interest in doing so and therefore have no great understanding of his condition. It strikes me though that if a man can come through what he went through last season, both on and off the pitch, and still wants to continue in the same job then he must be very strong mentally.

As I said though, I have no real insight into mental health issues so it could be that Lennon's problems are manifesting themselves in a way that's not noticeable to your mere supporter but is affecting the players in some way, whether it be directly or indirectly.

Only time and leaked newspaper stories will prove if that is the case.

Good point, Stereo, he came through a lot last season. I can’t say I ever felt that he was particularly in the grip of a full-blown depression at the time, however – but who can say either way? This is always going to be an imprecise science, of course, and I don’t feel that anyone could sensibly doubt his inner steel - and to confuse mental illness with a permanent mental weakness would be a catastrophically unjust mistake. Like he said himself, though, it can attack him out of the blue at the most seemingly random times. Stress itself needn’t be the tipping factor, but to rule out the possibility would be senseless.

Fighting a monumental battle can occupy the mind, obviously, and may even keep the demons at bay, allowing as it does for a total focus on everything but the self. I'm told. Accumulative stresses have a nasty habit of whacking us over the head whilst we’re looking the other way, however – they’re always there, doing their stuff, eating away at us from inside and we may never notice the end result until the end result itself is upon us. Does that make any sense? I hope so.

The point, I suppose, is that whether he had gone through all that stuff last season or not, the safest money would always have bet on Neil Lennon suffering extreme mental anguish at some point or other during his tenure at a club like Celtic – in fact, especially and specifically at a club like Celtic, given his already deep emotional attachment. And when his internal demons came calling, whether we wish the man well or not, it would be blindness to imagine that his performance as manager (man-manager/tactician/motivator whatever) might not be affected as a result.

I agree about a lot of managers looking slightly the worse for mental wear, although I’m more often struck by how angry they look – especially when celebrating a goal. Players, too. I’m not really sure I understand anger as an expression of a happy release. (Except in the bedroom, of course.) But in the absence of any self-revelations about their own mental health, I’m left to presume they’re simply weirdos. Neil Lennon is unwell, however – and probably will be for the rest of his life – and his expressions and behavioural tics (if you’re a fan of studying these things) offer an unvarnished glimpse of his deep anguish. Personally, it makes me warm to the man - the anguish, not the anger - and makes me want him to succeed all the more. Others might find it offers a chance to heap further torments upon his head – but that would be their problem, not mine.