Scottish Independence

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oldfrenchhorn said:
It might help out the Mayor in Calais if they came and collected the ones who are waiting to find their away across the channel.
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The only benefit Scotland might get is the bus fares to England, if theses people didn't walk. You never hear these migrants saying they wish to go to United Kingdom, Great Britain, Scotland or Wales it is only ever England and if some silly sod is going to help them cross the channel wherever they end up in the British Isles they won't stay long if it isn't England.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
Dreams about a Utopia, but nothing about helping people to live a normal life. AS keeps spinning the same old stories, but he will come unstuck unless he can show that interest rates will not go up and prevent even more people owning homes. No politician can get away with airy-fairy suggestions for ever. Eventually people want to know about what is in store for them and their family budgets, so to say we will sort that out after you have voted for us will not wear too well these days.
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Well if they are all like you french we have no chance as you seem to insist on misunderstanding what this whole thing is about. How many times does it need explaining that we are voting for Independence not policies. Fortuneatley the people of Scotland are getting it.
 
Spurf said:
Well if they are all like you french we have no chance as you seem to insist on misunderstanding what this whole thing is about. How many times does it need explaining that we are voting for Independence not policies. Fortuneatley the people of Scotland are getting it.
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Strange that since every argument you use for independence is based on these policies! - actually, it's only based on what you can find on Yes web sites. Have you ever had an original thought?
 
wear_yellow said:
Strange that since every argument you use for independence is based on these policies! - actually, it's only based on what you can find on Yes web sites. Have you ever had an original thought?
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I have two for you.

People always accuse you of the things which they themselves are guilty of. This is useful because it gives you an insight into their character.


Inteligence is not what you know it's what you do with what you know.

<ok>
 
Spurf, this is a genuine question. Why are you spending so much time arguing the Scottish case on this site which is, after all, a site for Watford football fans? I think there are probably only two of us that have the vote and they decided their positions a long time ago. Having said that, it has been interesting for me to be able to read grass-roots nationalist opinion. The referendum has only received limited reports in NZ, and that is only because Scotland plays rugby.
 
I take the point that only 2 of us on the Watford board actually have a vote in Scotland, so maybe it would be more appropriate for us to focus more attention on the possible consequences for England of a 'Yes' vote. What would the situation be for the north of England, sandwiched between a possible tiger economy to the north and a Tory voting London and the South East ? Would the north see the benefits of trying to establish closer ties to an independent Scotland - and doing it independently of Westminster. Would the Geordies, Scousers, Mancs etc. realize that they actually have more in common with the Scots than with London ? Is this whole thing not a manifestation of the relationship between London and the home counties (and their dominance over the politics and economic direction of the country) on the one hand and the rest of the UK on the other ?
 
I detect 3 strands in the Yes campaign

1 The "original" supporters of an Independent Scotland who would just love to live in a country where everything - good and bad - is down to them so that they are entirely in control of their own destiny. To me this is a "heart" position and needs no justification - just as probably as many use their heart to want to continue an alliance with the auld enemy in a historically successful union.

2 Then there is the greed position - we have rich oil deposits and do not need the UK so let's better ourselves by withdrawing. Sensible if not the most caring nor long term view. By definition if independence does make Scotland richer by grabbing all the oil for itself then it must make the rest of the UK poorer - but we do not care about that. Me first argument.

3 Finally the anti London/ Fat Cats / Westminster brigade who have turned this campaign by using dislike of the English establishment to fuel their cause. Very short term as we are still in a recovery from the last recession so of course there are still austerity measures for now. However as the economy grows these will fade and sensible people will look to see how as prosperity returns it can be used "socially" for the beneift of all citizens of the UK

There are a few - Spurf appears to fit this category who have a wider agenda of changing the political system and set up and are tagging on to Scottish independence to further that cause.

It is a good job the English are not as narrow minded as some Scots regarding their fellow members of the UK. Were England to turn round and say - OK Scotland has gone so the Northern Irish can have independence or join Eire if they want and the Welsh can go it alone too the Irish and Welsh would suffer tremendously. Spurf can produce all the Yes campaign facts and fiction he likes to pretend Scotland does not get subsidised by the UK but even he would struggle to do the same for Wales. They are not blessed with oil or other natural resources and need England to help them - something we are glad to do. I am reminded of an old Hollies song " He ain't heavy, he's my brother". For me that applies to the UK but it seems half the Scots do not feel that way at all.
 
NZHorn said:
Spurf, this is a genuine question. Why are you spending so much time arguing the Scottish case on this site which is, after all, a site for Watford football fans? I think there are probably only two of us that have the vote and they decided their positions a long time ago. Having said that, it has been interesting for me to be able to read grass-roots nationalist opinion. The referendum has only received limited reports in NZ, and that is only because Scotland plays rugby.
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NZ it takes very little time to write a few comments, I am doing many other things besides this. Neverthless I understand why it would seem odd.

I think it's important that people in England at least get the chance to hear the other side of this story because as I have said my hope is that an Independent Scotland can in the end lead the whole of the UK into the 21st century. Posting on a football site will reach people that otherwise wouldn't hear the case for YES. The media in the UK is apalling and can not be relied upon to present a balanced case. The BBC despite it's world wide reputation always presents the status quo position in it's news production.

The fact that I have received such a hostile reception on the Watford board does not surprise me, what does surprise me is how so many people have closed minds and just swallow the establishment line to the extent that they are only able to argue from one point of view.

Finally remember I am just one amongst thousands of YES people and the WEB is the way to go as far as spreading ideas goes.
 
Leonardo said:
I detect 3 strands in the Yes campaign

1 The "original" supporters of an Independent Scotland who would just love to live in a country where everything - good and bad - is down to them so that they are entirely in control of their own destiny. To me this is a "heart" position and needs no justification - just as probably as many use their heart to want to continue an alliance with the auld enemy in a historically successful union.

2 Then there is the greed position - we have rich oil deposits and do not need the UK so let's better ourselves by withdrawing. Sensible if not the most caring nor long term view. By definition if independence does make Scotland richer by grabbing all the oil for itself then it must make the rest of the UK poorer - but we do not care about that. Me first argument.

3 Finally the anti London/ Fat Cats / Westminster brigade who have turned this campaign by using dislike of the English establishment to fuel their cause. Very short term as we are still in a recovery from the last recession so of course there are still austerity measures for now. However as the economy grows these will fade and sensible people will look to see how as prosperity returns it can be used "socially" for the beneift of all citizens of the UK

There are a few - Spurf appears to fit this category who have a wider agenda of changing the political system and set up and are tagging on to Scottish independence to further that cause.

It is a good job the English are not as narrow minded as some Scots regarding their fellow members of the UK. Were England to turn round and say - OK Scotland has gone so the Northern Irish can have independence or join Eire if they want and the Welsh can go it alone too the Irish and Welsh would suffer tremendously. Spurf can produce all the Yes campaign facts and fiction he likes to pretend Scotland does not get subsidised by the UK but even he would struggle to do the same for Wales. They are not blessed with oil or other natural resources and need England to help them - something we are glad to do. I am reminded of an old Hollies song " He ain't heavy, he's my brother". For me that applies to the UK but it seems half the Scots do not feel that way at all.
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Leo, there is a resentment of the role of London and the home counties which is detectable not only in Scotland, but anywhere west of Taunton or north of Leicester. Remember Disraeli's 2 nations debate - well 140 years later places like Manchester and Hull still have rates of life expectancy well below that of the home counties. Westminster has still not solved the north - south divide, and my worry is that this will come to a head with many in the north looking rather enviously towards an independent Scotland. This debate is not about England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but about breaking away from the concentration of power which has built up around London and the South East.
 
colognehornet said:
Leo, there is a resentment of the role of London and the home counties which is detectable not only in Scotland, but anywhere west of Taunton or north of Leicester. Remember Disraeli's 2 nations debate - well 140 years later places like Manchester and Hull still have rates of life expectancy well below that of the home counties. Westminster has still not solved the north - south divide, and my worry is that this will come to a head with many in the north looking rather enviously towards an independent Scotland. This debate is not about England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but about breaking away from the concentration of power which has built up around London and the South East.
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You are correct - but here we are talking about Scotland.
 
This is a well written piece and not a bad thing for people undecided to read. I don't normally post "articles" but this seemed more coherent and better argued than most especially as the author is a "natural" Yes voter

http://goo.gl/t1I1no
 
Spurf said:
The fact that I have received such a hostile reception on the Watford board does not surprise me, what does surprise me is how so many people have closed minds and just swallow the establishment line to the extent that they are only able to argue from one point of view.
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I think you have underestimated what a crap argument you have made on behalf of the yes campaign and are guilty of exactly what you accuse others of.
 
Leonardo said:
You are correct - but here we are talking about Scotland.
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Leo - we are talking about the consequences of possible Scottish separation not only throughout the UK but also in Europe. Your original preamble to this thread asked 'Does anybody who is neither Scottish nor living in Scotland care about the outcome' even though,as you said, it will affect the rest of the UK massively. If we are restricting this discussion only to the affects upon Scotland - then there is no real debate possible. But simply to say if they want to let them - it is their democratic right and I wish them well. We are however not just talking about Scotland because if London had really governed the UK as a multi national, decentralized country, and not viewed the Celtic fringe as an extension of empire we would not be faced with separatism now. If we want to learn from someone maybe we can look at how Switzerland holds its multi lingual country in unity.
 
Bloother - you have to laugh - Spurf of course has a completely open mind !! I think we have raised loads of arguments - each one of our own thinking as we do not subscribe to an "establishment line" However if every argument pro Union is said to be the establishment line it is that by Spurf's definition only. We have been insulted from the beginning and have tried to tease out of Spurf any kind of answer to real issues that have to be answered. All we have ever got is just vote yes and we will talk about details later.

The truth is the Union is good and does not need "fixing" but as in any good democracy it will evolve and if and when there is a demand for increased autonomy "within" the union it can be granted. Interestingly I havae spent a few days in Wales and they are totally opposed to Independence for them and do not want a Parliament - they do not like the Assembly they have much either.
 
One question from a far away country with no railways. If Scotland has independence will the expensive rail system to link London to Glasgow and Edinburgh be stopped and if is can we have some of the equipment for the proposed Reykjavík Keflavík airport linking?
 
geitungur akureyrar said:
One question from a far away country with no railways. If Scotland has independence will the expensive rail system to link London to Glasgow and Edinburgh be stopped and if is can we have some of the equipment for the proposed Reykjavík Keflavík airport linking?
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No, the new HS2 rail link will now stop at Carlisle and there will be a 1 hour 43m customs and immigration wait in Carlisle for those wanting to go north of the Border......

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...eurostar-train-change-in-france.html?channel=
 
Leonardo said:
Bloother - you have to laugh - ...have tried to tease out of Spurf any kind of answer to real issues that have to be answered. All we have ever got is just vote yes and we will talk about details later.
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And that is the established SNP line. Now, just off to watch the Tour of Britain go through Chesham
 
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