Scottish Independence
- Thread starter Leo
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I mean why you object to the use of the word 'separatism' to describe movements wanting independence.
To be fair Spurf, most in the Deep South rely on the MSM for any information they want - little knowing (or realising) the bias shown by them all. I doubt they would ever have heard of weegingerdug, newsnetscotland, bellacaledonia, wingsoverscotland or the like - most of which tell the news and views (and truths) that MSM refuse to.
Because it is clearly looking at it from the position of the status quo. Wanting to seperate is an emotive issue and a negative one. It is not the desire to leave England it is the desire to be self governing. Scotland will still be part of the British Isles and friends with the countries that make up Britain.
Spot on Bolton's Boots you obvioulsy know what you are talking about.
I take it you live in Scotland.Just to clear up a misunderstanding I was not meaning to use the word in a negative sense. I am for much greater devolution of powers from Westminster - if central government in Britain had not been in London, by London and for London for so long then I do not think we would be facing the possibility of break up now. I would like to see the building up of regional government also in the regions of England - maybe something along the lines of the federal system found in eg. Germany, with much more self government in places like Manchester, Newcastle etc. Britain has just been too centralized for too long. But I would prefer to see this within the context of Great Britain. Because of the separatist issue in other parts of Europe I also do not think that the EU would welcome an independent Scotland with open arms.
Excuse me Spurf and Bolton but please read the second sentence of my initial post: Does anybody who is neither Scottish nor living in Scotland care about the outcome? You are both disqualified on that count. I was trying to see what non Scots- centred folk thought about the whole thing rather than just have the usual Better Together - Yes to Independence debate.
It ought to be as important to the rest of the UK as it is to Scots but it does not seem to be - the fact that England, Wales and Northern Ireland have been ignored by Cameron and cronies should not mean they do not have a voice.
I think it is disappointing that there is not a large majority in Scotland either pro or anti Independence. From the polls it is a fairly close run thing and that means that nearly half the population will be disappointed whichever way the vote goes.
(and I am only kidding I would have been disappointed Bolton if you had not been drawn into this and I welcome our esteemed Spurf and love the weegingerdug site.)
It ought to be as important to the rest of the UK as it is to Scots but it does not seem to be - the fact that England, Wales and Northern Ireland have been ignored by Cameron and cronies should not mean they do not have a voice.
I think it is disappointing that there is not a large majority in Scotland either pro or anti Independence. From the polls it is a fairly close run thing and that means that nearly half the population will be disappointed whichever way the vote goes.
(and I am only kidding I would have been disappointed Bolton if you had not been drawn into this and I welcome our esteemed Spurf and love the weegingerdug site.)
The problem with that idea is that we don't have a a proper modern democracy with PR and no unelected House of Lords. The present Westminster system maintains a staus quo that has lasted a 1000 years. If we had a proper democracy It's possible that this referrendum would not have come up. We don't.
This is the first opportunity in 100's of years to break this elitist system and IMO it is the best chance for England & Wales too. Once we have an Independent Scotland clearly showing the rUK that is another way (a better way) it will give more chance to voters to demand proper democratic change in the rUK as well.
If you go to the Spurs site we have a Scots independence site where I have already posted many links and many facts, if you are interested please visit there to save me repeating myself.
Here is a linkhttp://www.not606.com/showthread.php/273199-Scottish-Independence-and-other-political-topics
Although I do see and hear the UK news, I also see and hear the French and other European news which frequently has a very different slant on the same matters. The view from across the water is that Scotland would not be so independent as isolated. Governments do not directly comment that often about matters outside their own countries, but it has been said quite forcibly that many of the trade advantages that they have through the UK would be lost. It is all well and good to say that if a Yes vote came about discussions would then take place about the 101 issues that would arise, but I read that in 1993 the Slovak Republic peacefully split off from the Czech Republic and they are still trying to sort out the nuts and bolts. I doubt that the country would be truthfully independent for very many years, and would be caught in an in between trap.
A word of caution to Scots should you gain independence and the EU say no to entry. DUE TO YOUR CONNECTION TO BRITAIN, THEY WILL STILL INTERFERE - AS WE IN JERSEY KNOW ONLY TOO WELL. There seem to be too many unanswered questions for there to be a yes vote by a large majority. I have no idea how my relatives in Aberdeen will vote.
The one thing I see is that the Scots politicians don't like being governed by Westminster (some sort of ego trip), they didn't seem to mind when Westmister was run by the red team who had all those MPs from Scotland to help beat the blue team. Now England has returned enough blue MPs and with help from the orange ones the Scots politicians don't like it, and by extension project that onto the Scottish people; unhappily that is democracy for you.
If the Scots do vote to go it alone I think it only fair that the British government withdraw all their expense from Scotland, phased or otherwise, ie the tax offices in East Kilbride the military bases at Faslane,etc. After all the Frnch would never stand for their public expenditure being farmed out to Berlin or the Spanish having their military based in Italy.
How will Scotland pay for its independence, what is left of Britain can ill afford to take on the debt from the Scottish but that is what will happen. The Scots may start from point zero but how will they finance their governmental expenditure, public taxation will cover this but will the people put up with a government taking more than the Sassenach government take from their people. The Barnett Formula saw that the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish had more spent on them than the English, that cushion will go.
I am sure the Scots would make a good fist of things but are their politicians up to the job? I really hope they are, but in my heart think they are equally as bad as those south of the border.
In my work I have many Scottish friends and those who have expressed an opinion are not in favour of an independant Scotland, I don't know if this is because they are working in England or not, one from the east coast even says the population there has more in common with the English than the Scots of 10 miles to the west - something to do with cultural heritage and the majority of the eastern coastal population being less Celtic and more Viking, Saxon, Danish and Norman French.
If the Scots do vote to go it alone I think it only fair that the British government withdraw all their expense from Scotland, phased or otherwise, ie the tax offices in East Kilbride the military bases at Faslane,etc. After all the Frnch would never stand for their public expenditure being farmed out to Berlin or the Spanish having their military based in Italy.
How will Scotland pay for its independence, what is left of Britain can ill afford to take on the debt from the Scottish but that is what will happen. The Scots may start from point zero but how will they finance their governmental expenditure, public taxation will cover this but will the people put up with a government taking more than the Sassenach government take from their people. The Barnett Formula saw that the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish had more spent on them than the English, that cushion will go.
I am sure the Scots would make a good fist of things but are their politicians up to the job? I really hope they are, but in my heart think they are equally as bad as those south of the border.
In my work I have many Scottish friends and those who have expressed an opinion are not in favour of an independant Scotland, I don't know if this is because they are working in England or not, one from the east coast even says the population there has more in common with the English than the Scots of 10 miles to the west - something to do with cultural heritage and the majority of the eastern coastal population being less Celtic and more Viking, Saxon, Danish and Norman French.
Not this old chestnut
Watch the video and you may then have a better idea of the true position.
[video=youtube;1W8cKHcZn60]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1W8cKHcZn60[/video]
@ bragantino
Your suggestion that Scots politiciians are on an ego trip because they want Independence is such a condescending piece of nonsense.
What an absolute cheek you just have to be a complete Tory bastard complete, unreformed and unrepentent.
How is your ****ing castle do you need double glazing, I can arrange for a quote. Buy 350 windows get one free an absolute steal.
Your suggestion that Scots politiciians are on an ego trip because they want Independence is such a condescending piece of nonsense.
What an absolute cheek you just have to be a complete Tory bastard complete, unreformed and unrepentent.
How is your ****ing castle do you need double glazing, I can arrange for a quote. Buy 350 windows get one free an absolute steal.
You're probably quite right with that, not necessarily from the 'should Scotland be independent' point of view, but from the 'in the event of a Yes vote, what will refusing a currency union mean to rUK' point of view. There is a train of thought, as far as I can see only expressed only on those websites mentioned in another post, that it would be disastrous for rUK. For reasons best known to themselves, the main Westminster parties don't appear willing to mention or discuss that.
I've never really understood 'the science' of opinion polls, and this referendum has served only to puzzle me further as to how they work. I obviously can't speak for the whole of Scotland, but my observations paint a picture that says the opposite to it being a close run thing. There have, over the last few months, been many a Community Debate held in towns around the country - most, if not all, are available on YouTube - and they all seem to point to a decisive Yes vote. I've attended five in various centres around Aberdeenshire, Highlands and Moray, all with the same result - although admittedly at two of them the No group never turned up. Interestingly, a Polish colleague of mine attended a Poles for Scotland referendum information meeting three weeks ago. It was well attended, over 400 by her reckoning, which was quite surprising. Their voting intentions were polled on the way in - 14% Yes, 0% No, 86% Don't Know. On the way out they were polled again - 66% Yes, 0% No and 34% Undecided. Maybe unscientific, but, as I said, interesting...
Equally as unscientific i suppose, but my son and I have been driving quite frequently between here and Perth recently, varying our route depending upon the time, traffic and weather. He devised a little game to whilst away the time called 'Spot the No sign' - and I have to say that they were few and far between, hard to see for the forest of Yes signs....
I hope you are right Bolton - either way - as a close result will be unsatisfying to both sides. I would love to see either two thirds pro - or anti. I can't say I really mind which way the vote goes. I like having Scotland as part of the UK and if it were my decision alone I would keep it that way. However if the majority - a good majority preferably of Scots want independence then that would be the right way to go.
Sorry if I have come over in a rude manner btw passions run high. 
I am pleased to see some sensible debate on the subject. It is a matter which should inform the whole the UK this is IMO the most important political event in my lifetime. Whatever happens in the referrendum the UK will never be the same again. The YES campain is now a huge grassroots movement in Scotland just as Bolton's Boots describes. These are for the most part people who never before been involved in a political action. This is not going away whatever the result.
It is high time the the UK wwas reformed IMO, 35 years ago we had one of the most equal countries in the developed world, now we are the 4th most unequal. We have the 4th LOWEST pensions in the whole of the EU. The NHS in England is being privatised, we have people working for no pay (Interns) I call that exploitation and a form of slavery. Our employment laws have been taken back to the 18th century. We have a very poor industrial base and are far too reliant on financial services to pay our way.
£1.4 trillion in debt that represents £20,000 bebt for each and every one of us.
This is not a good situation and to cap it all we are still ruled by an elite who have been in power for 1000 years with an unelected House of Lords making laws to suit themselves.
Scotland has a chance to leave this unreformed and backward situation and become a successful modern democracy, it would be quite mad not to take this chance.
I am pleased to see some sensible debate on the subject. It is a matter which should inform the whole the UK this is IMO the most important political event in my lifetime. Whatever happens in the referrendum the UK will never be the same again. The YES campain is now a huge grassroots movement in Scotland just as Bolton's Boots describes. These are for the most part people who never before been involved in a political action. This is not going away whatever the result.
It is high time the the UK wwas reformed IMO, 35 years ago we had one of the most equal countries in the developed world, now we are the 4th most unequal. We have the 4th LOWEST pensions in the whole of the EU. The NHS in England is being privatised, we have people working for no pay (Interns) I call that exploitation and a form of slavery. Our employment laws have been taken back to the 18th century. We have a very poor industrial base and are far too reliant on financial services to pay our way.
£1.4 trillion in debt that represents £20,000 bebt for each and every one of us.
This is not a good situation and to cap it all we are still ruled by an elite who have been in power for 1000 years with an unelected House of Lords making laws to suit themselves.Scotland has a chance to leave this unreformed and backward situation and become a successful modern democracy, it would be quite mad not to take this chance.
Exactly so Leo. The major disappointment for me in the whole affair has been the attitude of the 'opposition' - derisive, sneering, openly hostile and seemingly intent on goading Salmond into responding in the same manner. To his credit, he has mostly resisted - knowing full well that the media would pounce if he did give in to temptation.
I gave a belly laugh yesterday when Cameron trotted out his latest International Leader to pass opinion - Tony Abbott ffs - an embarrassment to Australia!
I had the misfortune to have to work with him many years ago when he was Employment Minister in Howard's government - the biggest, most self-centred, arrogant, uncaring and evil turd on legs you're ever likely to come across. A perfect match for Iain Duncan Smith really....
I gave a belly laugh yesterday when Cameron trotted out his latest International Leader to pass opinion - Tony Abbott ffs - an embarrassment to Australia!
I had the misfortune to have to work with him many years ago when he was Employment Minister in Howard's government - the biggest, most self-centred, arrogant, uncaring and evil turd on legs you're ever likely to come across. A perfect match for Iain Duncan Smith really....
If Alex Salmond isn't on an ego trip then what is he on?
Cheek about what, stating the obvious? The UK has had governments which were swayed by the number of politicians from Scotland, and for that matter Wales, that is an unescapable fact.
I would love to have a castle with that many windows. Everything I have I've worked for and if that makes me a "complete Tory bastard complete, unreformed and unrepentent" then that in your eyes is what I will have to be.
As to the film, it was certainly very informative. I can appreciate it is from the Yes campaign but I thank you for pointing me at it. I still think we as a group of people inhabiting one island would be better off together, but now understand at a basic level Scotland could survive quite well on its own. I just wish all politicians were as responsible with the money they collect from us as we have to be to beable to allow them to take such large amounts.
And one final thing, you don't need to swear to get your point across.
When people discuss poll results, I suspect that their reading of them depends on where they live, in the same way that they would answer if they were asked the questions. They say that in England different parts of the country would elect a monkey if it stood for the right party. Having lived in two places, one red and one blue where that might be true, I do believe that the people around you don't always wish to display their preference when they prefer the opposite.
With regards to the NHS, I live in a country where there is a mix of private and public health care which is regarded as being one of the best in the world, yet the cost involved to the public purse is at breaking point. With 65M people contributing to it it is still short of money and cannot do everything it wants to. With an ageing population the demands on it increase every year and each one we are asked to pay in more. Scotland has an older population than the rest of the UK that will require more money than the small population will be able to provide in my opinion. Don't decry parts of the NHS being privatised, it can provide better health care as I can testify from my experience.
With regards to the NHS, I live in a country where there is a mix of private and public health care which is regarded as being one of the best in the world, yet the cost involved to the public purse is at breaking point. With 65M people contributing to it it is still short of money and cannot do everything it wants to. With an ageing population the demands on it increase every year and each one we are asked to pay in more. Scotland has an older population than the rest of the UK that will require more money than the small population will be able to provide in my opinion. Don't decry parts of the NHS being privatised, it can provide better health care as I can testify from my experience.
I would look forward to a Yes vote. But I hate the sort of anti-English slant that the debate has taken on and has been shown on here. All the blame for the countries woe's is being piled against "Westminster" as again was raised on here by our visitor - on other Yes vote websites and blogs it is all down to all the "Bankers" in the SE of England.
So the Yes campaign has just become a vote against Westminster and falls into the same trap that they acuse the No campaign of.
What is missing in the Yes vote campaign is how an independent Scotland would build the infrastructure that would be closed to them after independence. Forget the question of currency that is just scare mongering, but what about Inland Revenue? Who is going to collect VAT and Income Tax? Who will issue Road Fund Licence? Who will issue Scottish Passports.
Every company that has a presence across the UK will have to create new companies with new sets of books for Scotland and depending on their size and complexity will have to make significant changes to their systems and processes
Lastly Scotland would become independent from the UK, not England, so keep your anti-English crap to yourself.
So the Yes campaign has just become a vote against Westminster and falls into the same trap that they acuse the No campaign of.
What is missing in the Yes vote campaign is how an independent Scotland would build the infrastructure that would be closed to them after independence. Forget the question of currency that is just scare mongering, but what about Inland Revenue? Who is going to collect VAT and Income Tax? Who will issue Road Fund Licence? Who will issue Scottish Passports.
Every company that has a presence across the UK will have to create new companies with new sets of books for Scotland and depending on their size and complexity will have to make significant changes to their systems and processes
Lastly Scotland would become independent from the UK, not England, so keep your anti-English crap to yourself.