Saints Academy Thread

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Tbh it really doesn't make any sense to me that Koeman gets so much support on here.. when he refuses to given Academy players chances, make ridiculous signings, not off-loaded Ramirez ages ago and has one win in nine games...

Hesketh not getting on the bench is an real odd one, considering he started a game. It's like Koeman just likes spending money for the sake of it. I'd rather one quality big money signing and academy players getting chances. Than several mediocre ones.

Let's hope he gives some academy players a chance against Palace. If not then I'll be pissed off.
 
Tintin said:
Tbh it really doesn't make any sense to me that Koeman gets so much support on here.. when he refuses to given Academy players chances, make ridiculous signings, not off-loaded Ramirez ages ago and has one win in nine games...

Hesketh not getting on the bench is an real odd one, considering he started a game. It's like Koeman just likes spending money for the sake of it. I'd rather one quality big money signing and academy players getting chances. Than several mediocre ones.

Let's hope he gives some academy players a chance against Palace. If not then I'll be pissed off.
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I said on the Norwich match day thread that I am starting to think he isn't the right man for us. But I also don't want us to become a knee jerk club, and he has earned the chance to turn it around after last season's amazing performance. I think he has so much support because he is such a likeable guy. (Plus I still think he WILL turn the slump around.)
Another big factor is that who else would do a better job that we could realistically afford? I don't see the point in changing until the end of the season at the earliest, by which point hopefully we will be looking good again anyway.
 
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billyvegas said:
Surely people aren't seriously blanking RK for Gaston still being here?

That is more down to RK negotiating him out and not the manager...

If the kids aren't ready that isn't his fault either. Reed aside I'm not sure I'd be playing anyone else, perhaps tomorrow if will see.
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Won't know if they are ready until you try.
 
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Ron shouldn't be judging them on that one game, I've seen the kids play a lot better than that and two vital players (McCarthy and Mugabi) were missing from the line up IMO. McCarthy, in particular is a good leader and marshalls the defence really well.
 
Tintin said:
Tbh it really doesn't make any sense to me that Koeman gets so much support on here.. when he refuses to given Academy players chances, make ridiculous signings, not off-loaded Ramirez ages ago and has one win in nine games...

Hesketh not getting on the bench is an real odd one, considering he started a game. It's like Koeman just likes spending money for the sake of it. I'd rather one quality big money signing and academy players getting chances. Than several mediocre ones.

Let's hope he gives some academy players a chance against Palace. If not then I'll be pissed off.
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For every "ridiculous" signing he has made there have been several very good signings, Forster, Bertrand, Toby, VVD, Sadio, Tadic, Pelle and Clasie were all captured at very good prices and are all worth far more than what we paid for them, except for Clasie (who I think will turn out to be class).
 
Tintin said:
Tbh it really doesn't make any sense to me that Koeman gets so much support on here.. when he refuses to given Academy players chances, make ridiculous signings, not off-loaded Ramirez ages ago and has one win in nine games...

Hesketh not getting on the bench is an real odd one, considering he started a game. It's like Koeman just likes spending money for the sake of it. I'd rather one quality big money signing and academy players getting chances. Than several mediocre ones.

Let's hope he gives some academy players a chance against Palace. If not then I'll be pissed off.
Click to expand...
I suspect you'll find some excuse to be pissed off at Koeman whatever happens, or whoever plays on Saturday. I would say the main reason Koeman gets so much support on here is that he took us to our highest-ever position, with our highest-ever points total in the Premier League last season, and therefore has earned our undying admiration. And that after seeing so many players sold the summer he arrived. He rebuilt the team and got them playing attractive football. This season, agreed, things haven't gone so well, but to lay the blame solely at Koeman's door is more than a bit unjustified. He saw Schneiderlin, Clyne, and Alderweireld walk away, and I imagine he wasn't very happy about it. Which signings do you think are ridiculous? And I seem to remember that you were recently condemning Koeman for not playing Ramirez, and now you're condemning him for not selling him.

On your specific point of his not playing Academy boys more, in my opinion he has answered that by what he said in the Echo. Targett is good enough, Reed is almost there, but the others aren't quite there yet. I do agree with you about Hesketh, but Koeman presumably has his reasons for that as well.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
I suspect you'll find some excuse to be pissed off at Koeman whatever happens, or whoever plays on Saturday. I would say the main reason Koeman gets so much support on here is that he took us to our highest-ever position, with our highest-ever points total in the Premier League last season, and therefore has earned our undying admiration. And that after seeing so many players sold the summer he arrived. He rebuilt the team and got them playing attractive football. This season, agreed, things haven't gone so well, but to lay the blame solely at Koeman's door is more than a bit unjustified. He saw Schneiderlin, Clyne, and Alderweireld walk away, and I imagine he wasn't very happy about it. Which signings do you think are ridiculous? And I seem to remember that you were recently condemning Koeman for not playing Ramirez, and now you're condemning him for not selling him.

On your specific point of his not playing Academy boys more, in my opinion he has answered that by what he said in the Echo. Targett is good enough, Reed is almost there, but the others aren't quite there yet. I do agree with you about Hesketh, but Koeman presumably has his reasons for that as well.
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Either Ramirez should have been sold immediately or he should be playing more. Otherwise it's a completely waste of money. I don't agree in particular with signing two DM's instead of giving Reed a chance. Why waste so much money on Clasie? I'd be playing Reed over Clasie at DM on merit.

Getting Djuricic and Elia on loan was pretty pointless. Caulker on loan also pointless. Martina and Soares are also questionable signings. Juanmi was a pointless signing. One could even argue we didn't need to sign Romeu either. Wanyama, Reed, Davis and JWP can all play there.

The money could have been better used getting one or two quality signings and giving the academy players more chances. We finished high because our squad was good last year. We are struggling this year mainly because of his decisions with the squad, selection, tactics and transfers. As far as I'm concerned we finished 7th last year in spite of his team selection and tactics. Pochettino would have finished higher with last year's squad imo and would also have been wiser in the summer with who he brought in. Pochettino would be using academy players more too as far as I'm concerned.

It's all well and good loving Koeman because we finished 7th. But Adkins for example stormed up the divisions and didn't get a proper chance to show what he could do. Most of the players he had when he came up were Championship quality and the likes of Fox, Hooivield, Davis, Richardson, Guly, Chaplow got massively found out at this level..despite doing very well for us in the Championship. The ones that were good enough took a while to adjust to the standard and pace of the league. Adkins didn't get the chance to bring in new players and show what he could do. I certainly don't rate Koeman as highly as I rate Pochettino as a manager just because Koeman finished 7th in one season.
 
Tintin said:
Either Ramirez should have been sold immediately or he should be playing more. Otherwise it's a completely waste of money. I don't agree in particular with signing two DM's instead of giving Reed a chance. Why waste so much money on Clasie? I'd be playing Reed over Clasie at DM on merit.

Getting Djuricic and Elia on loan was pretty pointless. Caulker on loan also pointless. Martina and Soares are also questionable signings. Juanmi was a pointless signing. One could even argue we didn't need to sign Romeu either. Wanyama, Reed, Davis and JWP can all play there.

The money could have been better used getting one or two quality signings and giving the academy players more chances. We finished high because our squad was good last year. We are struggling this year mainly because of his decisions with the squad, selection, tactics and transfers. As far as I'm concerned we finished 7th last year in spite of his team selection and tactics. Pochettino would have finished higher with last year's squad imo and would also have been wiser in the summer with who he brought in. Pochettino would be using academy players more too as far as I'm concerned.

It's all well and good loving Koeman because we finished 7th. But Adkins for example stormed up the divisions and didn't get a proper chance to show what he could do. Most of the players he had when he came up were Championship quality and the likes of Fox, Hooivield, Davis, Richardson, Guly, Chaplow got massively found out at this level..despite doing very well for us in the Championship. The ones that were good enough took a while to adjust to the standard and pace of the league. Adkins didn't get the chance to bring in new players and show what he could do. I certainly don't rate Koeman as highly as I rate Pochettino as a manager just because Koeman finished 7th in one season.
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hindsight is a wonderful thing. In August would you or anyone else here been happy with going into the season with no replacement for Clyne, only 3 cbs, 1 dm (vic) as Reed shows promise but lacks game time, Ward prowse and Davis have played there but Davis in particular has shown he is better abit more forward. Only Long and Pelle as forwards is also somewhat scary esp as we were looking for a run in Europe. Some of the new guys have not set the world on fire, but signings needed to be made and players like Juanmi needs time, could be a good player as he was much liked by his previous fans. Caulker could have worked out as he is an experienced PL player but failed to push himself. Claisse has prob been our best player for the last couple of games but is still not match fit (and in my opinion should be playing futher forward and not as a DM. The squad was and still is very thin if the youth are not ready
 
Am I missing something? Why is any one saying that Ramirez should have been sold? If has been suggested here that he is on a good wack (I've seen £60k pw quoted) then clearly not many are going to want to fork out. So we play him, loan him out or negotiate a contract cancellation to make him a free agent. I'm as disappointed as anyone but am convinced he is a good player that has a serious problem with injury / illness.

AS for RK criticising the youth, I suspect he is trying to motivate harder work. I'm not the best judge though. I watched Shaw regularly for U21s and never thought he was ready for first team. How wrong was I. Watching the game against Chelsea I thought our centre backs were good. Some nice performances in midfield too from Hesketh, Reed and even Little. I have only seen the Echo article and did wonder if the quote was out of context - i.e. are you still looking for a striker or are you going to promote from U21s? Clearly McQueen, Gallagher and Seager are a way that level still (though I would like to see them given a run out when we are 3-0 up!!)
 
Tintin said:
Either Ramirez should have been sold immediately or he should be playing more. Otherwise it's a completely waste of money. I don't agree in particular with signing two DM's instead of giving Reed a chance. Why waste so much money on Clasie? I'd be playing Reed over Clasie at DM on merit.

Getting Djuricic and Elia on loan was pretty pointless. Caulker on loan also pointless. Martina and Soares are also questionable signings. Juanmi was a pointless signing. One could even argue we didn't need to sign Romeu either. Wanyama, Reed, Davis and JWP can all play there.

The money could have been better used getting one or two quality signings and giving the academy players more chances. We finished high because our squad was good last year. We are struggling this year mainly because of his decisions with the squad, selection, tactics and transfers. As far as I'm concerned we finished 7th last year in spite of his team selection and tactics. Pochettino would have finished higher with last year's squad imo and would also have been wiser in the summer with who he brought in. Pochettino would be using academy players more too as far as I'm concerned.

It's all well and good loving Koeman because we finished 7th. But Adkins for example stormed up the divisions and didn't get a proper chance to show what he could do. Most of the players he had when he came up were Championship quality and the likes of Fox, Hooivield, Davis, Richardson, Guly, Chaplow got massively found out at this level..despite doing very well for us in the Championship. The ones that were good enough took a while to adjust to the standard and pace of the league. Adkins didn't get the chance to bring in new players and show what he could do. I certainly don't rate Koeman as highly as I rate Pochettino as a manager just because Koeman finished 7th in one season.
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You make a good point about Adkins, but he probably wouldn't have been able to attract the likes of Mané, Tadic, Pellè, or Clasie to the club. Nor would he have been able to hold on to the likes of Schneiderlin, Lallana, Shaw and co. Clasie most certainly isn't a waste of money, he is going to be a very important player for us. Irrespective of all that, Koeman doesn't have the final say in transfers in or out, so why are you blaming him solely for what you see as poor signings?

And finally, I see no point in comparing Koeman's record to Pochettino's because Poch ****ed off to Spurs at the earliest opportunity, so you might say that particular point is academic.
 
The thing with playing young defenders is that a single mistake at this level it normally results in a goal. however we are not scoring so there is nothing to lose in not playing the likes of Seager
 
ChilcoSaint said:
You make a good point about Adkins, but he probably wouldn't have been able to attract the likes of Mané, Tadic, Pellè, or Clasie to the club. Nor would he have been able to hold on to the likes of Schneiderlin, Lallana, Shaw and co. Clasie most certainly isn't a waste of money, he is going to be a very important player for us. Irrespective of all that, Koeman doesn't have the final say in transfers in or out, so why are you blaming him solely for what you see as poor signings?

And finally, I see no point in comparing Koeman's record to Pochettino's because Poch ****ed off to Spurs at the earliest opportunity, so you might say that particular point is academic.
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We don't know that for sure. It might have been easier to hold on to Schneiderlin, Lallana, Lambert with Adkins as he would have known them for so long and been on the journey with them up the divisions. They might have been interested in how far they could get Saints together. Perhaps that dream ended for the players after we switched manager. And Pochettino left himself, something Adkins wouldn't have done. We'll never know for sure where we'd be right now if we didn't sack Adkins to start with.

I don't agree about Clasie. I think he's a waste of money as we have Reed. A young English academy player in Reed isn't developing like he should do and isn't getting the chances he should be getting. Why spend upwards of 8 million when you have an arguably better option for DM already. Ludicrous in my eyes. Never rated Clasie anyway. I think Davis is a better DM, better CM, better everywhere than Clasie.
 
Tintin said:
We don't know that for sure. It might have been easier to hold on to Schneiderlin, Lallana, Lambert with Adkins as he would have known them for so long and been on the journey with them up the divisions. They might have been interested in how far they could get Saints together. Perhaps that dream ended for the players after we switched manager. And Pochettino left himself, something Adkins wouldn't have done. We'll never know for sure where we'd be right now if we didn't sack Adkins to start with.

I don't agree about Clasie. I think he's a waste of money as we have Reed. A young English academy player in Reed isn't developing like he should do and isn't getting the chances he should be getting. Why spend upwards of 8 million when you have an arguably better option for DM already. Ludicrous in my eyes. Never rated Clasie anyway. I think Davis is a better DM, better CM, better everywhere than Clasie.
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Well at least you've given Clasie half a season and a grand total of 9 appearances before you write him off. Well done.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
Well at least you've given Clasie half a season and a grand total of 9 appearances before you write him off. Well done.
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10 appearances. And he's played more than those 10 games in his career.

I'm interested as to why you are so defensive of him? He's a Dutch player from a Dutch league that cost a ridiculously high fee for what he is. He's keeping an English academy player out the side. Let's not forget the money wasted on his wages either compared to having played Reed. And the fact it's slowed down Reed's development.
 
Beefy said:
He would have played far more games if he was more bulky, yep. But I don't think it will happen.
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Can't see him getting chances under Koeman. Koeman seems to have no interest in giving the academy players chances. Reed's had a few stormers in hardly any appearances and that wasn't even enough to get him any chances this season.
 
Tintin said:
10 appearances. And he's played more than those 10 games in his career.

I'm interested as to why you are so defensive of him? He's a Dutch player from a Dutch league that cost a ridiculously high fee for what he is. He's keeping an English academy player out the side. Let's not forget the money wasted on his wages either compared to having played Reed. And the fact it's slowed down Reed's development.
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I'm defensive of him, as you put it, because I can see that he is beginning to get used to the quality of players he has to face in the Premier League. The last couple of games he has played really well and was most people's MOTM on this board in the Norwich game. I appreciate you think he is blocking Reed's progress, but the nature of professional football is that you often have to fight your way into a team. Koeman has said today that Reed is close to breaking through, but he's not quite there yet. I consider Ronald's judgment to carry more weight than yours.
 
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