Rival watch

[PleaseNotPoll]

The only thing it really proves is that Arsenal's oveall defending is woeful compared to Spurs' with 67 shots raining in on goal, compared to only 38 at Spurs in a similar amount of games!

Lloris does have excellent command of his box, though and he's willing to come miles out of his box to prevent chances from balls over the top.
This has probably reduced the number of shots that he's faced somewhat.

I agree that the stats don't prove anything, though.

 

[totsfan]

Totals this season in the prem if I've got things correct:

Szszesny - 16 starts, 18 conceded, 48 saves, 5 clean sheets

Lloris - 15 starts, 13 conceded, 25 saves, 7 clean sheets

The only thing it really proves is that Arsenal's oveall defending is woeful compared to Spurs' with 67 shots raining in on goal, compared to only 38 at Spurs in a similar amount of games!

Cheers cini,some of you can get it right,i see coyg had a go at you on your board.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Totals this season in the prem if I've got things correct:

Szszesny - 16 starts, 18 conceded, 48 saves, 5 clean sheets

Lloris - 15 starts, 13 conceded, 25 saves, 7 clean sheets

The only thing it really proves is that Arsenal's oveall defending is woeful compared to Spurs' with 67 shots raining in on goal, compared to only 38 at Spurs in a similar amount of games!

Agreed but it was COYG who brought up the stats to prove a point about the goalkeepers, which was corrected and then laughed about because if anything it disproved his point. You don't need stats to tell you that Lloris is the better 'keeper though, I've been saying for ages that Szczesny is overrated and I think Arsenal fans are coming around to the realisation that he's got more clangers in him than the Moon.

 

[cini65]

Agreed but it was COYG who brought up the stats to prove a point about the goalkeepers, which was corrected and then laughed about because if anything it disproved his point. You don't need stats to tell you that Lloris is the better 'keeper though, I've been saying for ages that Szczesny is overrated and I think Arsenal fans are coming around to the realisation that he's got more clangers in him than the Moon.

Yeah, he's not had an all that great season so far, but Szszesny is young(er). Goalkeepers often don't peak until late 20s, early 30s. Let's see how he is in four years time, or even 10 years time. Not many keepers have ever been consistently great at that age. Plus players go in and out of form all the time. Look at Ramsey, look at Bale.

Remember when Spurs couldn't win a game with Bale in the team?

Szszesny might not ever amount to a world class keeper, but given the terrible defence he's playing in front of... to concede not many more than Lloris is pretty good. Our defensive coaching is far more important to improve than the actual defenders or goalkeepers.

 

[totsfan]

Yeah, he's not had an all that great season so far, but Szszesny is young(er). Goalkeepers often don't peak until late 20s, early 30s. Let's see how he is in four years time, or even 10 years time. Not many keepers have ever been consistently great at that age. Plus players go in and out of form all the time. Look at Ramsey, look at Bale.

Remember when Spurs couldn't win a game with Bale in the team?

Szszesny might not ever amount to a world class keeper, but given the terrible defence he's playing in front of... to concede not many more than Lloris is pretty good. Our defensive coaching is far more important to improve than the actual defenders or goalkeepers.

it's weird, i though Steve Bould would improve your defence,as he was a good C/B,but he seem's to have had the opposite effect

 

[cini65]

I don't think it's an 'opposite' effect, it's more that he's had no effect. Defences built by Wenger have been inherently vulnerable, due to our playstyle and clearly by a lack of real coaching.

I doubt a new number 2 is ever going to change Wenger's overall style of coaching. Maybe we'll see when he ever retires how a new manager/head coach deals with our overall coaching.

Any defender or goalkeeper could come to Arsenal and I'd seriously doubt it would make our defence any less leaky than it will ever be.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Yeah, he's not had an all that great season so far, but Szszesny is young(er). Goalkeepers often don't peak until late 20s, early 30s. Let's see how he is in four years time, or even 10 years time. Not many keepers have ever been consistently great at that age. Plus players go in and out of form all the time. Look at Ramsey, look at Bale.

Remember when Spurs couldn't win a game with Bale in the team?

Szszesny might not ever amount to a world class keeper, but given the terrible defence he's playing in front of... to concede not many more than Lloris is pretty good. Our defensive coaching is far more important to improve than the actual defenders or goalkeepers.

I'm not saying he won't get better but what I would say is that he's not good enough to be number one at a club like Arsenal. At the start of the season we were told how only one or two of our players would get in your team, none included Friedel or Lloris and even to the extent that some said he was one of the best keepers in the league. That's why I felt you guys were overrating him.

I think you're playing down your defence just to stand up for Szczesny, to be honest. Mannone was in goal at the start of the season when your defence was doing well and you might even find you're better off dropping Szczesny for him.

 

[cini65]

Mannone is cr@p, give over.

Lloris wouldn't improve our team. The only players of yours that would improve our team are Bale (in place of Podolski) and Dembele (in place of Arteta).

That doesn't mean our other 9 starters are better than yours, it just means your other 9 players wouldn't necessarily improve our team.

Similarly, the only players at Arsenal who I think would improve Spurs are Wilshere and Cazorla (and maybe debatably Walcott who I think might possible score more than Defoe). The rest are much of a muchness.

 

[District Line]

Mannone is cr@p, give over.

Lloris wouldn't improve our team. The only players of yours that would improve our team are Bale (in place of Podolski) and Dembele (in place of Arteta).

That doesn't mean our other 9 starters are better than yours, it just means your other 9 players wouldn't necessarily improve our team.

Similarly, the only players at Arsenal who I think would improve Spurs are Wilshere and Cazorla (and maybe debatably Walcott who I think might possible score more than Defoe). The rest are much of a muchness.

Lloris would infinitely improve your team, he's miles better than any Goalkeeper you have.

Cazorla would definitely improve Spurs, he's the type of player they're missing IMO. You could do with a Sandro or someone of that mould and defenders that can actually defend I.e Kaboul.

Both are pretty evenly matched, Arsenal have more depth to their squad and could probably cope with injuries to key players slightly better than Spurs could.

 

[cini65]

Lloris would infinitely improve your team, he's miles better than any Goalkeeper you have.

Nah

Cazorla would definitely improve Spurs, he's the type of player they're missing IMO. You could do with a Sandro or someone of that mould and defenders that can actually defend I.e Kaboul.

Nah, Demebele would better fit us than Sandro. Don't rate Sandro that highly anyway. And Kaboul? You having a laugh? He's quite a good defender, but so are Vermaelen, Koscielny and Mert... it's just they don't get taught anything effective about defending at Arsenal hence why our defense is so mediocre. Put Kaboul in the Arsenal and we'd concede just as many.

Both are pretty evenly matched, Arsenal have more depth to their squad and could probably cope with injuries to key players slightly better than Spurs could.

Meh, probably. It's a good job the waiter is dragging down Chelsea into the battle for CL places too or it would a three way scramble for the last place between Spurs, Everton and Arsenal

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Mannone is cr@p, give over.

Lloris wouldn't improve our team. The only players of yours that would improve our team are Bale (in place of Podolski) and Dembele (in place of Arteta).

That doesn't mean our other 9 starters are better than yours, it just means your other 9 players wouldn't necessarily improve our team.

Similarly, the only players at Arsenal who I think would improve Spurs are Wilshere and Cazorla (and maybe debatably Walcott who I think might possible score more than Defoe). The rest are much of a muchness.

I've made a similar point about players who are at a similar level and players that would genuinly be a huge improvement in these arguments before.

Anyway before we digress from the point, I was saying that Arsenal fans overrated Szczesny's current ability. I think most outsiders view him as a weak link in your team.

 

[cini65]

I don't really view him as any weaker than many other areas of our team. He's just a solid 7/10 player. Just like our right back, left back (although that may now change with Nacho), centre backs and strikers.

All solid 7/10 players... all of them are quite good.

Problem for us is that we used to have 5 or 6 truly brilliant 9/10 or 10/10 players to help us challenge for the league. Over the last six years the ratio of top players to good players has got worse and worse. So now, our good players have no-one to drag them up. So we're rightfully challenging to be top 4 but hovering around top 6. That's the players we have right now.

If it carries on for too many more years, I wouldn't begrudge someone like Wilshere leaving as he's brilliant.

I have sympathy for players like RVP and Fabregas. Truly great players dragging their team up, but annually seeing more and more 7/10 players brought into the squad around them, making the team drop further and further away from the top. Eventually, you'd say enough is enough.

I wouldn't stay at work blindly for my whole career if my employer got rid of all the most productive workers and replaced them with cheaper, younger 'filler'. Eventually, I'd get green eyes and look at workers similar to my standard, earning more and being rewarded with more at other companies.

 

[totsfan]

I don't really view him as any weaker than many other areas of our team. He's just a solid 7/10 player. Just like our right back, left back (although that may now change with Nacho), centre backs and strikers.

All solid 7/10 players... all of them are quite good.

Problem for us is that we used to have 5 or 6 truly brilliant 9/10 or 10/10 players to help us challenge for the league. Over the last six years the ratio of top players to good players has got worse and worse. So now, our good players have no-one to drag them up. So we're rightfully challenging to be top 4 but hovering around top 6. That's the players we have right now.

If it carries on for too many more years, I wouldn't begrudge someone like Wilshere leaving as he's brilliant.

I have sympathy for players like RVP and Fabregas. Truly great players dragging their team up, but annually seeing more and more 7/10 players brought into the squad around them, making the team drop further and further away from the top. Eventually, you'd say enough is enough.

I wouldn't stay at work blindly for my whole career if my employer got rid of all the most productive workers and replaced them with cheaper, younger 'filler'. Eventually, I'd get green eyes and look at workers similar to my standard, earning more and being rewarded with more at other companies.

I think Wilshire will go,as will Bale eventually

 

[No Kane No Gain]

I don't really view him as any weaker than many other areas of our team. He's just a solid 7/10 player. Just like our right back, left back (although that may now change with Nacho), centre backs and strikers.

All solid 7/10 players... all of them are quite good.

Problem for us is that we used to have 5 or 6 truly brilliant 9/10 or 10/10 players to help us challenge for the league. Over the last six years the ratio of top players to good players has got worse and worse. So now, our good players have no-one to drag them up. So we're rightfully challenging to be top 4 but hovering around top 6. That's the players we have right now.

If it carries on for too many more years, I wouldn't begrudge someone like Wilshere leaving as he's brilliant.

I have sympathy for players like RVP and Fabregas. Truly great players dragging their team up, but annually seeing more and more 7/10 players brought into the squad around them, making the team drop further and further away from the top. Eventually, you'd say enough is enough.

I wouldn't stay at work blindly for my whole career if my employer got rid of all the most productive workers and replaced them with cheaper, younger 'filler'. Eventually, I'd get green eyes and look at workers similar to my standard, earning more and being rewarded with more at other companies.

I think 7/10 is very generous as it implies he's well above average. Cesar, Krul, Mignolet, Begovic, Vorm, Howard, Lloris, Cech and Hart are all much better first choice 'keepers playing elsewhere in the league and that's why he's a weak point, half the other sides in the league have clearly better 'keepers which is bad if you want to finish in the top 4. Most of the rest of your side look good enough to compete with the top 4, which is why you're there.

 

[cini65]

Cesar, Krul, Mignolet, Begovic, Vorm, Howard, Lloris, Cech and Hart are all much better first choice 'keepers playing elsewhere in the league and that's why he's a weak point, half the other sides in the league have clearly better 'keepers which is bad if you want to finish in the top 4

And that will be where we disagree.

Vorm, Howard and Krul?!

Most keepers who are 6/10 upwards can look great at a lower team because they have huge amounts of shots to save. Being a keeper at a top club is a different kettle of fish. Look at Howard at United. Those three are no better than Shesney.

Lloris, Cesar and Mignolet maybe slightly better, but not significantly so (I'd say 7/10 or 8/10). They've certainly been no better this year than Shesney was last year. Hart is also good but overrated (I'd say an 8/10 keeper too).

Cech is a very good keeper, but come on... he's also had long patches recently where he's been worse than Shesney has this year.

Begovic is the only keeper I'd take from the premier league in an instant (and Cech if he was a bit younger and didn't have a skull broken into 10 pieces by a Reading thug)

Some Arsenal fans may overrate Shesney, but you clearly underrate him. He's a better than average keeper. He wouldn't be at a top club if he wasn't. He's just not a top 5 or 10 in the world keeper.

Incidentally, while we're at it... why not

In no particular order
Begovic
Cech (almost back to his best now)
Neuer
Buffon
Handanovic

 

[No Kane No Gain]

And that will be where we disagree.

Vorm, Howard and Krul?!

Most keepers who are 6/10 upwards can look great at a lower team because they have huge amounts of shots to save. Being a keeper at a top club is a different kettle of fish. Look at Howard at United. Those three are no better than Shesney.

Lloris, Cesar and Mignolet maybe slightly better, but not significantly so (I'd say 7/10 or 8/10). They've certainly been no better this year than Shesney was last year. Hart is also good but overrated (I'd say an 8/10 keeper too).

Cech is a very good keeper, but come on... he's also had long patches recently where he's been worse than Shesney has this year.

Begovic is the only keeper I'd take from the premier league in an instant (and Cech if he was a bit younger and didn't have a skull broken into 10 pieces by a Reading thug)

Some Arsenal fans may overrate Shesney, but you clearly underrate him. He's a better than average keeper. He wouldn't be at a top club if he wasn't. He's just not a top 5 or 10 in the world keeper.

Incidentally, while we're at it... why not

In no particular order
Begovic
Cech (almost back to his best now)
Neuer
Buffon
Handanovic

You queried my inclusion of Cech as better then Szczesny but then list him amongst the best 'keepers in the World. If you're not confused, I certainly am.

I'm not underrating Szczesny. As a shot stopper he's very good but he makes a lot of bad decisions and mistakes. He's a lot like Gomes, on his day he could pull off brilliant save after save but there was always a simple mistake around the corner. Szczesny has age on his side but I think Wenger's nearing the samepoint we did with Gomes, it's all very well him winning us points with great saves but that's what a top 'keeper should do but when you factor in the errors, inability to organise the defence and tendency to make poor decisions you need to bring in someone more solid. All keepers will make a mistake every now and then but there are some 'keepers that bring it on themselves.

After Szczesny made plenty of mistakes last season, during the Euros and has continued to all throughout this season I find it surprising that the only other 'keeper in the league you'd welcome into your team is Begovic.

One final thing. Newcastle and Swansea both conceded 2 more goals than you last season not bad if they were under pressure all game able that helped them look better. The reality is Krul and Vorm weren't 'keepers at the bottom of the table under pressure all game which allowed them to shine. Swansea dominated possession and territory in most games they played yet when called upon there was Vorm. Krul also didn't find himself in a side that was put on the backfoot every game. As for Howard, he was nowhere near the player he is now when he was at United. It's like saying Parker wasn't very good at Chelsea so that means he's not good enough for a top 4 side now.

 

[Boss]

The term "great shot stopper" is just a feeble attempt from goons of praising their keeper, as all keepers tend to be "great shot stoppers", its the nature of throwing yourself at the ball and making a great save, every keeper in the league has that ability.

David James was a great example, as he could pull off world class saves, yet for years was deemed to be a complete clown, until he matured a wee bit.

What makes a top keeper, is the positional play, commanding your area, reading the game and providing a calm presence and Szczesny. is a shambles at times and looks to be more interested in making that hollywood save, rather then being a reassuring safe presence in goal.

 

[SpursDisciple]

The term "great shot stopper" is just a feeble attempt from goons of praising their keeper, as all keepers tend to be "great shot stoppers", its the nature of throwing yourself at the ball and making a great save, every keeper in the league has that ability.

David James was a great example, as he could pull off world class saves, yet for years was deemed to be a complete clown, until he matured a wee bit.

What makes a top keeper, is the positional play, commanding your area, reading the game and providing a calm presence and Szczesny. is a shambles at times and looks to be more interested in making that hollywood save, rather then being a reassuring safe presence in goal.

Calamity James

 

[Boss]

Calamity James

[video=youtube;Sq90d6UOcsg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq90d6UOcsg[/video]

[video=youtube;VMBO2Qd5n3s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMBO2Qd5n3s[/video]

 

[bigsmithy9]

Lloris.Your the best,son.....and I haven't even got time for the French!
Is water bottle tossing a national sport in France Mr.Wenger?