I hope we're not in another Schumacher scenario here... We're fast coming to a year since his accident with very little info. 
RIP Jules Bianchi
- Thread starter SgtBhaji
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I hope we're not in another Schumacher scenario here... We're fast coming to a year since his accident with very little info.
I think we'll be updated on Bianchi's situation for a few days yet, but if he requires a long time in an induced coma like Schumacher then what information we receive will likely be down to Bianchi's family. Schumacher's family have always been very private, we'll have to see if Bianchi's family handle it differently. This appears to be the latest on Schumacher by the way.
I've updated the OP to include TomTom's excellent effort, between the three moderator's (and Bhaji as it's in his post) we can try to keep it updated, particularly if TomTom wants to add anything.
Is that his balaclava still on? If so... that's good right? The Helmet wasn't compromised at least. At least I'm hoping that's good... I have no clue.
I don't often post on this part of the forum but wanted to share my thoughts as it seems like a lot of people are pointing fingers at the marshals, stewards and Charlie. It's getting close to 20 years since I competed in motorsport, and that wasn't in single seaters, so forgive me if my opinions are out of date or incorrect. I've also pasted part of this post from an answer I gave elsewhere to non motorsport fans so sorry if I sound like I'm over explaining.
Like a few others seem to have done, I saw the clip when it was auto-played on facebook. If I'm honest, I would probably have watched anyway simply because the descriptions of the accidents turn into chinese whispers and gossip, and I like to understand what happened. That said it was horrific. I agree with the person who said it reminded them of the Pryce accident at Kylami, although for force of impact it also reminded me of the Jeff Krosnoff accident at Toronto. It was a horrific.
At the start of the clip Adrian Sutil's car is on the other side of the marshall's post and they are correctly displaying double waved yellows which means that the drivers should not only slow down but also be prepared to stop immediately in case of danger. As the tractor reverses back to the other side of the marshal's post then the marshal's were technically correct to be waving the green flag. The double-waved yellows should also have been waved by marshals on the track side all the way back to the previous marshal's post (and I believe they were). The green flags begin immediately after the danger site according to track position.
That's the theory and to be fair to the marshal's they are not supposed to deviate from that theory. It does highlight some problems though. In my opinion, the height and prominence of the marshal's post in relation to the track-side marshalls meant that the drivers' attention may have been caught by the green flag before they had passed all of the double waved yellows, especially taking into account the increasing spray as the rain had started to increase just before this. The authorities need to look at what the procedure should be for green flags at a post so close to the danger area, on a bend, even though the post was technically after the obstruction. I think they need to look at having a small buffer zone past the accident as well as before it (depending on where on the track it occurs).
An even bigger concern is that drivers simply ignore double waved yellows too often and treat them as single yellow flags. I don't want to criticise any single driver because they are all guilty. Unless the danger is in the middle of the track then drivers do not slow down enough to be at the point where they can stop immediately if required. The fact it was raining should be irrelevant in some ways, as the drivers should take this into account for stopping distances in the same way they do for slowing down for corners. The drivers have failed to do this for so long that nobody seems to expect them to lift more than a fraction - to the point where they are only losing fractions of a second when passing an accident.
Because this is known to be the case then the race director should probably have sent the safety car out before releasing the tractor to recover Sutil's car. In his defence, the track conditions had not long started to get worse due to increasing rain and the accident took place during the time that he would normally have been getting data and feedback on how bad track conditions were.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that it was a 'perfect storm' of unlucky events that combined to both cause the accident and highlight some deficiencies in the laid down procedure. I hope they can look at it and learn, without throwing blame around and looking for scapegoats.
As well as being an unlucky series of events it was also an extremely lucky outcome of the accident. I can't believe Bianchi wasn't killed instantly, and that no marshalls were wiped out (including the one in between the tractor and the tyre wall when the tractor was thrown up and backwards). Let's just hope Bianchi pulls through and fully recovers. Thoughts with his friends and family.
Going forward, F1 needs to find a way of eliminating as much danger as possible without making every race a safety car procession. My suggestion would be that instead of deploying the safety car at every accident they could employ a system where the cars had to travel on the limiter from the last straight section a safe distance before the accident to the first green flag after the accident. The technology already exists and is already fitted to the cars. The change in marshaling procedure would be no greater than the change that came in when safety cars were introduced. This would decrease the speed at which the cars passed the accident, and wouldn't involve the safety car travelling flat out to set the pace (a danger in itself). It would also create a much quicker way of sanitising the danger area rather than waiting for cars to catch the safety car. I know the drivers have to conform to delta times, but a limiter takes it out of their hands. As well as increasing safety in the danger area, it also allows racing to continue on the rest of the circuit. Just an idea...
Like a few others seem to have done, I saw the clip when it was auto-played on facebook. If I'm honest, I would probably have watched anyway simply because the descriptions of the accidents turn into chinese whispers and gossip, and I like to understand what happened. That said it was horrific. I agree with the person who said it reminded them of the Pryce accident at Kylami, although for force of impact it also reminded me of the Jeff Krosnoff accident at Toronto. It was a horrific.
At the start of the clip Adrian Sutil's car is on the other side of the marshall's post and they are correctly displaying double waved yellows which means that the drivers should not only slow down but also be prepared to stop immediately in case of danger. As the tractor reverses back to the other side of the marshal's post then the marshal's were technically correct to be waving the green flag. The double-waved yellows should also have been waved by marshals on the track side all the way back to the previous marshal's post (and I believe they were). The green flags begin immediately after the danger site according to track position.
That's the theory and to be fair to the marshal's they are not supposed to deviate from that theory. It does highlight some problems though. In my opinion, the height and prominence of the marshal's post in relation to the track-side marshalls meant that the drivers' attention may have been caught by the green flag before they had passed all of the double waved yellows, especially taking into account the increasing spray as the rain had started to increase just before this. The authorities need to look at what the procedure should be for green flags at a post so close to the danger area, on a bend, even though the post was technically after the obstruction. I think they need to look at having a small buffer zone past the accident as well as before it (depending on where on the track it occurs).
An even bigger concern is that drivers simply ignore double waved yellows too often and treat them as single yellow flags. I don't want to criticise any single driver because they are all guilty. Unless the danger is in the middle of the track then drivers do not slow down enough to be at the point where they can stop immediately if required. The fact it was raining should be irrelevant in some ways, as the drivers should take this into account for stopping distances in the same way they do for slowing down for corners. The drivers have failed to do this for so long that nobody seems to expect them to lift more than a fraction - to the point where they are only losing fractions of a second when passing an accident.
Because this is known to be the case then the race director should probably have sent the safety car out before releasing the tractor to recover Sutil's car. In his defence, the track conditions had not long started to get worse due to increasing rain and the accident took place during the time that he would normally have been getting data and feedback on how bad track conditions were.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that it was a 'perfect storm' of unlucky events that combined to both cause the accident and highlight some deficiencies in the laid down procedure. I hope they can look at it and learn, without throwing blame around and looking for scapegoats.
As well as being an unlucky series of events it was also an extremely lucky outcome of the accident. I can't believe Bianchi wasn't killed instantly, and that no marshalls were wiped out (including the one in between the tractor and the tyre wall when the tractor was thrown up and backwards). Let's just hope Bianchi pulls through and fully recovers. Thoughts with his friends and family.
Going forward, F1 needs to find a way of eliminating as much danger as possible without making every race a safety car procession. My suggestion would be that instead of deploying the safety car at every accident they could employ a system where the cars had to travel on the limiter from the last straight section a safe distance before the accident to the first green flag after the accident. The technology already exists and is already fitted to the cars. The change in marshaling procedure would be no greater than the change that came in when safety cars were introduced. This would decrease the speed at which the cars passed the accident, and wouldn't involve the safety car travelling flat out to set the pace (a danger in itself). It would also create a much quicker way of sanitising the danger area rather than waiting for cars to catch the safety car. I know the drivers have to conform to delta times, but a limiter takes it out of their hands. As well as increasing safety in the danger area, it also allows racing to continue on the rest of the circuit. Just an idea...
You pretty much summed up all my thoughts on this in that very well put together post. And great post btw.
When cars are being recovered, the corner prior, the corner being worked and the following corner could all be under waved yellows to truly define the troubled area. Also, procedures should possibly be different under wet conditions to help prevent incidents like this. I don't think people would be too upset with a safety car under those conditions.
As you say.. it really was a perfect storm. There are lessons to be learned, but we should refrain from trying to attribute blame.
When cars are being recovered, the corner prior, the corner being worked and the following corner could all be under waved yellows to truly define the troubled area. Also, procedures should possibly be different under wet conditions to help prevent incidents like this. I don't think people would be too upset with a safety car under those conditions.
As you say.. it really was a perfect storm. There are lessons to be learned, but we should refrain from trying to attribute blame.
Told myself I wouldn't watch the video.... I caved, and seriously wished I hadn't. It's actually left me shaking quite horribly. That just shouldn't be....It's unthinkable.
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Also just to clarify the flag marshal did nothing wrong, he waved greens for his sector which is after where the crash was and beyond to the next outpost further up the road. It doesn't matter if Sutil's car is 3 meters away from it, he is still in the previous marshals sector and he would be waving yellows regardless giving the driver the full knowledge that something is ahead and well in advance in this case. Being a marshal myself for a bit, I know race control decides when a red/blue flag comes out in these kind of events, not the flag marshal who is being fed information through his headset by the stewards. As you will also notice from videos, the marshals wave their hands in the air the second they see he isn't moving, that pretty much means "a big Emergency get somebody down here now".
I think the only potential issue with running on the limiter like that is that you could end up with effectively multiple restarts after the green flags, which could breed even more cautions. So maybe limiting overtaking for a corner after the green?
RoadRunner:7160695 said:
It was pretty awful to watch, but I kinda felt I had to in order to grasp what had happened. I can totally understand why somebody would want to avoid seeing it though.
Wouldn't it be more like the end of the pit lane? The restart would be a point on the track rather than a point in time, as each car should (in theory) leave the zone at the same interval they entered it.
There would be major issues that needed looked at though. Tracks would need markers on each suitable straight section to show where a zone would begin, like with the pit lane, and the corners leading to the straight section may need to be taken under yellow to avoid drivers trying to outbrake each other into the zone. The timing and procedure for lifting the limit would also need to be carefully thought out so that cars already in the zone were not disadvantaged compared to cars approaching the zone with momentum at the time the limit was lifted. That could be covered by yellows too though until the affected cars had left the zone.
There's no doubt that some drivers would lose out by having to slow down more often than others, and gaps could be reduced or increased because of this, but we already see gaps artificially reduced by the safety car procedure.
Any sort of system to actually enforce the double yellow rules would be good. A slight lift does not constitute slowing down and be prepared to stop. The cars have live delta times to the nearest 10 metres of track, if you're within 125% (or something) of the previous laps average sector time bang, stop and go no questions asked.
I'd be surprised if any of the drivers slowed down by any meaningful amount through the yellow zone, in fact I may go look at the times (although will be difficult with the mixed weather).
I'd be surprised if any of the drivers slowed down by any meaningful amount through the yellow zone, in fact I may go look at the times (although will be difficult with the mixed weather).
Massa sticking by his views that there was too much water on the track
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29498131
Personally, I did not think the conditions were not dangerous. Majority of drivers were still on inters and not full wets. Most of the other drivers have said much the same, so not sure why Massa is being so critical of the race continuing as it was, okay circumstances now mean that everyone can use hindsight, but for Massa to be 'screaming' for the race to be stopped seems a bit OTT.
This is the same driver who nearly won a WDC because of a race where it started to rain heavily. He didn't complain that day.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29498131
Personally, I did not think the conditions were not dangerous. Majority of drivers were still on inters and not full wets. Most of the other drivers have said much the same, so not sure why Massa is being so critical of the race continuing as it was, okay circumstances now mean that everyone can use hindsight, but for Massa to be 'screaming' for the race to be stopped seems a bit OTT.
This is the same driver who nearly won a WDC because of a race where it started to rain heavily. He didn't complain that day.
Another point here, and apologies if it has been mentioned already, the layout of the barriers at that part of the circuit need to be looked at.
having now seen the footage, it is clear that regardless of whether the JCB was there or not, Bianchi was heading for the gap in the barriers and was going to have one hell of an impact with the end of the barrier in the gap.
It should not be possible for a car to find it's way through a gap in the barriers like that. Marshalls, safety/recovery cars could still have been in position there which Bianchi may well still have hit.
Hopefully that will also form part of the investigation the FIA have announced they will conduct into the accident.
having now seen the footage, it is clear that regardless of whether the JCB was there or not, Bianchi was heading for the gap in the barriers and was going to have one hell of an impact with the end of the barrier in the gap.
It should not be possible for a car to find it's way through a gap in the barriers like that. Marshalls, safety/recovery cars could still have been in position there which Bianchi may well still have hit.
Hopefully that will also form part of the investigation the FIA have announced they will conduct into the accident.
Here Less Hope Than Neville, that Gary Anderson's been copying your homework!
http://plus.autosport.com/premium/f...-suzuka/?_ga=1.248219267.584155900.1372855085
"The cars have electronic speed limiters. They are very effective and are used for pit speed control. We have seen races with 60 or more pitstops without anyone being caught for speeding. Surely it's possible for this system to be adapted for use on the track...
A yellow flag means slow down. As a driver enters the yellow flag zone, he presses the track speed button on the steering wheel, which means the maximum speed â which I suggest is set at 100km/h to begin with â is controlled by the electronics.
When he sees the next green flag, he can reset it and off he goes back up to racing speed. This way everyone slows to the same speed, so no one gets an advantage by just going that little bit faster.
It would also be instant and could be used for just yellow flag sections where the incident has happened, or indeed the complete lap if necessary."
http://plus.autosport.com/premium/f...-suzuka/?_ga=1.248219267.584155900.1372855085
"The cars have electronic speed limiters. They are very effective and are used for pit speed control. We have seen races with 60 or more pitstops without anyone being caught for speeding. Surely it's possible for this system to be adapted for use on the track...
A yellow flag means slow down. As a driver enters the yellow flag zone, he presses the track speed button on the steering wheel, which means the maximum speed â which I suggest is set at 100km/h to begin with â is controlled by the electronics.
When he sees the next green flag, he can reset it and off he goes back up to racing speed. This way everyone slows to the same speed, so no one gets an advantage by just going that little bit faster.
It would also be instant and could be used for just yellow flag sections where the incident has happened, or indeed the complete lap if necessary."
TomTom94
Well-Known Member
Was just reminded about Hakkinen's crash in 1995 where he was technically dead for a short time. Here's hoping that Bianchi can be on the grid next season just like he was.
Less Hope Than Neville:7161602 said:
I guess if there's proper markers and it is treated similar to the pit lane... then you're right.
allsaintchris.:7161708 said:
I'd wondered what he was going to plough in to beyond the barrier had he not hit the recovery vehicle.