Arkle - did sea the stars burgle your house or something? I've neevr know so much bias against a horse in my life.
Racing Post Trophy
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HTN official rating 125
Camelot official rating 124
"AOB knows that Camelot would have stuffed *** far easier than STS did" - how can you make such a statement? Please stick to facts rather than glib speculation. If you believe everything that comes out of AOB's cake hole .....................
Oddy...let me just put you in the picture a little here.....Nijinsky has a higher rating than Sir Ivor...Lester Piggott rode both and states Sir Ivor was better.....Dancing Brave has a higher rating than Golden Fleece...Pat Eddery rode both and states Golden Fleece was better.....WHEN Aidan O'Brien says Camelot is the best he trained AND they kept that actual name in reserve for 10 years until they came across a horse worthy of being named it..THAT is all anyone needs to know and he went mighty close to emulating Nijinsky and with a better ride might have done so...HTN could not stay 11 furlongs let alone 14 and a half !
If anyone is not satisfied with that explanation let's not get into tautology here...we will just beg to differ !
If anyone is not satisfied with that explanation let's not get into tautology here...we will just beg to differ !
Yet more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd6SFqRGQow of this from O'Brien and the owners. I suggest you do your research before stating the name was reserved for 10 years. Firstly the maximum amount of time you can reserve a name for is ONE year and then you have to apply again. Giving that there was already a horse called CAMELOT until 2005 (sadly died in racecourse action) it would have been impossible for it to be reserved. Also the name only becomes available when the horse has been dead for 5 years or more - therefore CAMELOT wasn't available again until 2010
PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTT BULL****TTT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd6SFqRGQow of this from O'Brien and the owners. I suggest you do your research before stating the name was reserved for 10 years. Firstly the maximum amount of time you can reserve a name for is ONE year and then you have to apply again. Giving that there was already a horse called CAMELOT until 2005 (sadly died in racecourse action) it would have been impossible for it to be reserved. Also the name only becomes available when the horse has been dead for 5 years or more - therefore CAMELOT wasn't available again until 2010
PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTT BULL****TTT
RV.....I tell you what.....when Aidan O'Briens autobiography comes out at some stage you will see I was right about what I said....they had the name Camelot in mind for several years...I thought he actually said 10 when interviewed....and they chose that particular horse to be given that name .
Nothing else to add on the matter !
I don't come out with PFFFFFFTTTTT BULLxxxxTTT as you call it !
No need to be rude either way !
Nothing else to add on the matter !
I don't come out with PFFFFFFTTTTT BULLxxxxTTT as you call it !
No need to be rude either way !
Paul Nicholls is being diplomatic and sentimental there....he KNOWS who was the better horse clearly prior to Denman's debilitating heart problem and even after that he was still good enough to beat him on 2 further occasions also making a convincing score of 3-1
Arkle I was actually talking about O'Brien so stop taking it to heart 
but you should also do research and stop believing everything that comes out of AOB'S mouth. I am a big fan of his but he talks a lot of nonsense. I wonder if Johnny Murtagh still needs that parachute for Star Spangled Banner
he did state that as I heard it myself but it is complete nonsense as I have just provided the FACTS of how it is impossible for the name to have been reserved for 10 years.
but you should also do research and stop believing everything that comes out of AOB'S mouth. I am a big fan of his but he talks a lot of nonsense. I wonder if Johnny Murtagh still needs that parachute for Star Spangled Banner he did state that as I heard it myself but it is complete nonsense as I have just provided the FACTS of how it is impossible for the name to have been reserved for 10 years.
OK RV...no hard feelings....let's just hope Camelot gets a chance to prove himself again next season !
Hi I am new here, this is my first post:
I thought Camelot was a lovely type, but people have been saying the Irish Derby ruined him. I think perhaps his best distance would be 10f, he does not have so much stamina on this distaff side than some other middle distance Montjeus. It was impressive that he won the Guineas in spite of his pedigree. People also say he was the best of a bad lot and therefore looked better than he was compared with past generations.
My feeling is that Camelot is far from the best AOB has trained AT THE MOMENT. He may well turn round his form next year. How can he be better than the likes of Rock of Gibraltar/Giants Causeway/High Chapparal? Let us hope next year's Classic generation has a bit more in depth quality. The 3yos were shockingly weak this year, but that happens sometimes. I am not that excited about Kingsbarns, but Dawn Approach has looked very impressive. I worry he has run so often this season, but then again his sire did likewise. The problem next year is going to be a patent lack of decent older horses. Nathaniel and Frankel have disappeared, and I wonder if the good mares Danedream/Solemia/Shareta will be back again. I would like to see The Fugue stay in training. We may have lean year in the post-Frankel lull.
That is my analysis, thanks for reading.
I thought Camelot was a lovely type, but people have been saying the Irish Derby ruined him. I think perhaps his best distance would be 10f, he does not have so much stamina on this distaff side than some other middle distance Montjeus. It was impressive that he won the Guineas in spite of his pedigree. People also say he was the best of a bad lot and therefore looked better than he was compared with past generations.
My feeling is that Camelot is far from the best AOB has trained AT THE MOMENT. He may well turn round his form next year. How can he be better than the likes of Rock of Gibraltar/Giants Causeway/High Chapparal? Let us hope next year's Classic generation has a bit more in depth quality. The 3yos were shockingly weak this year, but that happens sometimes. I am not that excited about Kingsbarns, but Dawn Approach has looked very impressive. I worry he has run so often this season, but then again his sire did likewise. The problem next year is going to be a patent lack of decent older horses. Nathaniel and Frankel have disappeared, and I wonder if the good mares Danedream/Solemia/Shareta will be back again. I would like to see The Fugue stay in training. We may have lean year in the post-Frankel lull.
That is my analysis, thanks for reading.
Hi Darremi.
Excellent post btw.
I actually agree that the Camelot bubble is burst...as for The Fugue,not convinced..moderate filly on all known evidence.
Kingsbarns actually did impress a little.He travelled beautifully,quickened and stayed on strongly..hard to pick holes in that given the field he beat was full of decent consistent form.
Richard Hughes loves his horse and said that when Kingsbarns quickened he left him 3 lengths.
Interesting but I'm a big Dawn Approach fan..they will have different agendas next year.
The Camelot bubble is not burst and a 10 furlong horse does not win the Derby by 5 lengths, win an Irish Derby in heavy going, with the third horse 12 lengths behind ,and does not stay on the way he did in the St Leger.
Welcome Darremi,however,your assessment of Camelot is well wide of the mark !
I just hope he gets his chance to silence any doubters next season !
At least a few of you appreciate the brilliance of Dawn Approach so far, with plenty more to come !
Welcome Darremi,however,your assessment of Camelot is well wide of the mark !
I just hope he gets his chance to silence any doubters next season !
At least a few of you appreciate the brilliance of Dawn Approach so far, with plenty more to come !
Nice post and welocme to the forum. I think Camelot will never be vewed as one of the best but a lot of that is due to circumstances rather than ability. The other 3 year olds this year have been below par but I soemtimes wonder if that had anything to do with the absolutely appalling ground in May and June. I think Camelot would have acted on any surface whereas the others clearly didn't.
We've seen AoB's horses improve with age - Dylan Thomas being the most obvious example - so it may well be that he kicks on again next season. Of the 2 year olds I agree that Dawn Approach looks the better horse and the biggest question next year will be whether he takes on Kigsbarns. My hunch is that he won't as he'll be aimed at the shorter distances with Kingsbarns biggest target being the Derby
Thank you all for the welcome:
Dexter - I agree with you that Kingsbarns did nothing wrong, but I just got the impression of a horse staying on dourly rather than one with a brilliant finishing kick. I also think it pertinent that AOB has a poor record of winning the Derby in general never mind back to back derbies. Kingsbarns reminds me of Imperial Monarch in that he is stoutly bred on the distaff side. I would be concerned that something with a bit of a finishing kick could out-toe him speed wise.
As for The Fugue, I am inclined to agree with your assessment of her mediocrity. It might be nostalgic memories of her owner's other brilliant filly (my namesake) that is clouding my judgement!
ArkleSupreme - I really wanted Camelot to be a Champion because I liked the horse, but we have to face the fact that his season did tail off. I agree with you in hoping that he gets his day in the sun next year. But with him suffering a bad bout of colic there must be doubts about him staying in training. Like I said with the decent 4 year olds all off to stud who is going to beat next year to prove his brilliance? Perhaps Cirrus Des Aigles will be back as he is a gelding, though I would have my money on the French horse.
Dan Starkey - you are quite right about Dylan Thomas, a personal favourite of mine was Duke of Marmalade who after being distinctly short of top class in his classic season was a sensation at 4! I am just concerned that there is a lack of top class competition next season and that we might not have an outstanding Champion as a consequence.
Dawn Approach was certainly a stand out performer this season, I like to think he'll train on like his sire. Especially as he is staying with Bolger.
Apologies for being long winded there!
PS. I took some photos when I was up at Ascot for Champions day, is there any way of putting them on here?
Dexter - I agree with you that Kingsbarns did nothing wrong, but I just got the impression of a horse staying on dourly rather than one with a brilliant finishing kick. I also think it pertinent that AOB has a poor record of winning the Derby in general never mind back to back derbies. Kingsbarns reminds me of Imperial Monarch in that he is stoutly bred on the distaff side. I would be concerned that something with a bit of a finishing kick could out-toe him speed wise.
As for The Fugue, I am inclined to agree with your assessment of her mediocrity. It might be nostalgic memories of her owner's other brilliant filly (my namesake) that is clouding my judgement!
ArkleSupreme - I really wanted Camelot to be a Champion because I liked the horse, but we have to face the fact that his season did tail off. I agree with you in hoping that he gets his day in the sun next year. But with him suffering a bad bout of colic there must be doubts about him staying in training. Like I said with the decent 4 year olds all off to stud who is going to beat next year to prove his brilliance? Perhaps Cirrus Des Aigles will be back as he is a gelding, though I would have my money on the French horse.
Dan Starkey - you are quite right about Dylan Thomas, a personal favourite of mine was Duke of Marmalade who after being distinctly short of top class in his classic season was a sensation at 4! I am just concerned that there is a lack of top class competition next season and that we might not have an outstanding Champion as a consequence.
Dawn Approach was certainly a stand out performer this season, I like to think he'll train on like his sire. Especially as he is staying with Bolger.
Apologies for being long winded there!
PS. I took some photos when I was up at Ascot for Champions day, is there any way of putting them on here?
AO'B has won 3 of the last 12 Epsom Derbies...
That to my mind is not a poor record
Interesting point about Kingsbarns.He won't be running over anything shorter than 10f next year...travelled well and quickened nicely over a mile as 2-y-o so I doubt very much he'll be tapped for toe.
As I said, he beat some good yardsticks and imowas more impressive than Camelot.
Time will tell...as always!
That to my mind is not a poor record
Interesting point about Kingsbarns.He won't be running over anything shorter than 10f next year...travelled well and quickened nicely over a mile as 2-y-o so I doubt very much he'll be tapped for toe.
As I said, he beat some good yardsticks and imowas more impressive than Camelot.
Time will tell...as always!
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Good rebuttal! You are right that 3/12 is very good compared with other modern trainers, but more importantly (in my eyes) he only won 1 of the last 10 derbies. What concerns me is the period of 9 years elapsing between Camelot and High Chapparral. He did win back to back Derbies having won the year before that with Galileo, but the recent record tells its own tale. Then again stats are mostly nonsense!!
Another thing I wonder about is that Kingsbarns having so much stamina was really helped by the soft going at Doncaster and in his maiden. Maybe (probably) it will rain all next summer anyway and he'll be suited to that. A few of the commentators I read (including I think, Marcus Armytage) suggested that his rounded knee action would only be suited to soft going.
I also wonder where all the hype about Mars has gone. He was the derby candidate in the middle of summer before Kingsbarns even made it to the racecourse.
Bearing all that in mind, I am open to him being the Champ next year, I have nothing in principle against him. The problem for me is that he will never have the pedigree to be marketable as a stop stallion. Maybe that makes me biased against him.
Another thing I wonder about is that Kingsbarns having so much stamina was really helped by the soft going at Doncaster and in his maiden. Maybe (probably) it will rain all next summer anyway and he'll be suited to that. A few of the commentators I read (including I think, Marcus Armytage) suggested that his rounded knee action would only be suited to soft going.
I also wonder where all the hype about Mars has gone. He was the derby candidate in the middle of summer before Kingsbarns even made it to the racecourse.
Bearing all that in mind, I am open to him being the Champ next year, I have nothing in principle against him. The problem for me is that he will never have the pedigree to be marketable as a stop stallion. Maybe that makes me biased against him.