Qatar 2022

[PowerSpurs]

I can't disagree that FIFA should do something to prevent these people from dying. As is easily calculated, if nothing is done, thousands will die unnecessarily. I accept that the qatari's don't give a flying toss, but he rest of us should. Again, if FIFA continues to do nothing! to pretend this is not happening, then the major int'l teams should threaten to withdraw.

Unfortunately, Qater has oil & money, lots of money which seems to be FIFA 's god. If FIFA will do nothing to help these people, then somebody must. It's a disgrace that people should die in their hundreds and thousands when Qatar has more than enough resources to treat these people as human beings.

Absolutely right NSiS. Everyone from FIFA down should threaten withdrawal until all immigrant workers are treated correctly. I've obviously not been clear with my posts. I was trying to say that giving Qatar the World Cup has actually given us some leverage to end this scandal rather than simply ignoring it.

 

[RobSpur]

What is it exactly that people want Qatar to do ?

The main problem with Qatar is that you aren't allowed to leave the country without a letter from your employer. I can't see that changing, and even if it does, they can't afford to leave anyway. These guys are on about $5 a day.

The weather can't be helped, it is what it is. They know it's going to be hot when they come. Yes, there are a few deaths, but they are probably scarcely more likely to die than if they stayed in the subcontinent, where it is also bloody hot.

The working conditions are poor, but it is what they are used to, and I don't know what people expect to change. The vast majority of guys are unskilled or semi skilled labourers, and no one in the middle east is going to pay more for them than they currently get.

This sounds callous, but I think it's realistic.

 

[THFC6061]

What is it exactly that people want Qatar to do ?

The main problem with Qatar is that you aren't allowed to leave the country without a letter from your employer. I can't see that changing, and even if it does, they can't afford to leave anyway. These guys are on about $5 a day.

The weather can't be helped, it is what it is. They know it's going to be hot when they come. Yes, there are a few deaths, but they are probably scarcely more likely to die than if they stayed in the subcontinent, where it is also bloody hot.

The working conditions are poor, but it is what they are used to, and I don't know what people expect to change. The vast majority of guys are unskilled or semi skilled labourers, and no one in the middle east is going to pay more for them than they currently get.

This sounds callous, but I think it's realistic.

The people of Qatar can go **** themselves.

They live in an oppressive apartheid state which was built on virtual slave labour.

It's the international community, like FIFA, who should take action by having nothing whatsoever to do with them until they sort their Human Rights record out, no matter how much cash they have.

 

[RobSpur]

The people of Qatar can go **** themselves.

They live in an oppressive apartheid state which was built on virtual slave labour.

It's the international community, like FIFA, who should take action by having nothing whatsoever to do with them until they sort their Human Rights record out, no matter how much cash they have.

What do you mean by "sort their human rights record out" though ?

What is it you want them to do ?

 

[cini65]

And who is 'them' anyway? The mistreatees or the mistreated?

 

[THFC6061]

And who is 'them' anyway? The mistreatees or the mistreated?

'Them' is the citizens of Qatar, not the "guest" workers.

I would have thought that it was obvious.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

What do you mean by "sort their human rights record out" though ?

What is it you want them to do ?

Stop paying people peanuts to work in deadly conditions and withholding their passports when they want to return home.
That'd be a start.

They have a few quid to spare over there. They can afford to pay their migrant workers a living wage, give them decent conditions and let them leave if and when they want to.

 

[notsosmartspur]

What is it exactly that people want Qatar to do ?

The main problem with Qatar is that you aren't allowed to leave the country without a letter from your employer. I can't see that changing, and even if it does, they can't afford to leave anyway. These guys are on about $5 a day.

The weather can't be helped, it is what it is. They know it's going to be hot when they come. Yes, there are a few deaths, but they are probably scarcely more likely to die than if they stayed in the subcontinent, where it is also bloody hot.

The working conditions are poor, but it is what they are used to, and I don't know what people expect to change. The vast majority of guys are unskilled or semi skilled labourers, and no one in the middle east is going to pay more for them than they currently get.

This sounds callous, but I think it's realistic.

Worked anywhere else in the middle east?.....I have, and you'll fnd that is the case in most Arab countries, you will not be flying in or out without visa's, and its aswell your employers hold your passport cos trust me, if its nicked you have one hell of a problem. For a start authorities would not like admitting their citizens are thieves, and in Saudi you'd get no sympathy, there view would be if you weren't in the country you wouldn't have lost it there! A bloke I worked with went missing for 3 days, turned out he'd been involved in a car accident involving a Saudi local driving a truck with a few sheep in the back, and one got killed. The fault was laid with my workmate, all the more amazing when you learn he couldn't drive!, didn't even have a licence, he'd hired a taxi and the taxi was involved. The authorities deemed that had the 'foreigner' not took the cab, the accident would not have happened, and our firm had to pay an undisclosed sum to get our bloke released.

 

[Wandering Yid]

What is it exactly that people want Qatar to do ?

The main problem with Qatar is that you aren't allowed to leave the country without a letter from your employer. I can't see that changing, and even if it does, they can't afford to leave anyway. These guys are on about $5 a day.

The weather can't be helped, it is what it is. They know it's going to be hot when they come. Yes, there are a few deaths, but they are probably scarcely more likely to die than if they stayed in the subcontinent, where it is also bloody hot.

The working conditions are poor, but it is what they are used to, and I don't know what people expect to change. The vast majority of guys are unskilled or semi skilled labourers, and no one in the middle east is going to pay more for them than they currently get.

This sounds callous, but I think it's realistic.

Oh dear Rob

Basically you're saying that there is nothing that the international community and some of the most powerful corporations in the world can do to mend a bad situation, and we should all just accept exploitation and human rights violation as the unchangeable status quo.

It doesn't matter whether these workers are 'used to' these conditions, or whether neighbouring countries would do the same. What matters is that FIFA and their sponsors have the blood of hundreds of workers on their hands for failing to protect their rights, while building infrastructure for their own tournament.

No the weather can't be helped, but forcing people do to 18 hour shifts of manual labour a day in that weather, causing many to die, can be helped. The main problem is not that these workers can't leave, because if the conditions were reasonable they wouldn't want to leave.

What is it people want Qatar (the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world) to do? Stop profiteering from the exploitation of migrant workers, by providing them with reasonable labour and living standards. It's pretty simple.

 

[NSIS]

Oh dear Rob

Basically you're saying that there is nothing that the international community and some of the most powerful corporations in the world can do to mend a bad situation, and we should all just accept exploitation and human rights violation as the unchangeable status quo.

It doesn't matter whether these workers are 'used to' these conditions, or whether neighbouring countries would do the same. What matters is that FIFA and their sponsors have the blood of hundreds of workers on their hands for failing to protect their rights, while building infrastructure for their own tournament.

No the weather can't be helped, but forcing people do to 18 hour shifts of manual labour a day in that weather, causing many to die, can be helped. The main problem is not that these workers can't leave, because if the conditions were reasonable they wouldn't want to leave.

What is it people want Qatar (the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world) to do? Stop profiteering from the exploitation of migrant workers, by providing them with reasonable labour and living standards. It's pretty simple.

Oh dear, indeed!...

 

[notsosmartspur]

The middle east countries were ripped off basically since the Americans and British were first there "helping" with oil exploration. The 70's was a floodgate of expat workers in Saudi on mindboggling salaries. As decades passed the Arabs cottoned on to cheaper Asian labour. When I was there the tone was already set, with me working alongside some Filipino engineers on a third what I was on, but still a kings ransom where they're from. Filipino's were also used for dirty jobs drainage etc. Basically the Arabs employ anyone to do dirty or dangerous work.

I had to make up the acid solution for a new standby battery bank once, what a pollava!....it had been delivered 2 years previous and left empty. Not one of them came in the same building while I did it, an occasional head round the door! Biggest bunch of chickenshits I've ever come across.

 

[Spudulike]

The main problem is not that these workers can't leave, because if the conditions were reasonable they wouldn't want to leave.

A lot of workers are having their passports confiscated by their employers so they have no choice. They can't leave so that IS slavery.

 

[Wandering Yid]

A lot of workers are having their passports confiscated by their employers so they have no choice. They can't leave so that IS slavery.

I know that, and it's obviously wrong. But the fact is they would have no reason to want to leave if labour conditions were reasonable, and they weren't being treated like some sort of sub-species.

The passport confiscation is a bit of a moot point at the moment, as none of them even have the financial means to get out of Qatar.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

What is it exactly that people want Qatar to do ?

The main problem with Qatar is that you aren't allowed to leave the country without a letter from your employer.

I need permission to leave this country from my bank and my mobile phone network, otherwise I won't be able to use either. Which, in the former case, is a big of a bugger...

 

[Inda]

Unions have suggested that 4,000 workers could die before a ball is even kicked. I'd like to put some perspective on this high number.

Between 2007 and the end of this year, I have worked on the second and third largest construction projects in the UK, the Olympics being the largest. All my work has been based in the project management office.

Before we undertook the work, there was a hugh fear of worker death. We'd had one in the previous project, and this was seen as a failed project because of this one fact. I clearly remember my project manager saying that he expected another death on the next two projects; the statitics confirmed his fears; construction is a dangerous job. A death on the construction site would mean directors facing possible prison sentences. I cannot stress how seriously we took safety.

Both projects cost in excess of €1b each. Money was no object when it came to safety. There were four full time staff in charge of safety on our side, and many more on the contractor's side. If you wanted expensive safety equipment, it was bought without question. If you wanted to stop the job due to safety, you stopped. If you wanted to open a cage, place a ladder or even walk onto the site, you needed a permit.

During the life of both projects, close to 7,000 people worked on both sites. At the height of construction, 1,800 people were on site.

We had no deaths and a dozen minor injuries. The only major injury was a crushed foot, and the worker wont walk properly ever again - very sad.

Zero deaths and we won awards for that fact.

A death at work troubles me no-end. You say goodbye to your family in the morning; you're off to earn a living but you never return. It doesn't have to happen as we proved on our two jobs.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Inda

I have the Channel Tunnel near me, there was a number of deaths, around 5 if memory serves, but mining is infinitely more dangerous than outdoor construction. Thats 5 too many, but no where near 4000.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

From the report most are from heart attacks too which are very preventable if you don't make your employees work in slave conditions with long hours, in high heat and with no access to water. These aren't deaths coming from poor health and safety, they're simply working these people until they die. I can't imagine they mind either, it's one less employee to pay if they're witholding their wages as was suggested.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Unions have suggested that 4,000 workers could die before a ball is even kicked. I'd like to put some perspective on this high number.

Between 2007 and the end of this year, I have worked on the second and third largest construction projects in the UK, the Olympics being the largest. All my work has been based in the project management office.

Before we undertook the work, there was a hugh fear of worker death. We'd had one in the previous project, and this was seen as a failed project because of this one fact. I clearly remember my project manager saying that he expected another death on the next two projects; the statitics confirmed his fears; construction is a dangerous job. A death on the construction site would mean directors facing possible prison sentences. I cannot stress how seriously we took safety.

Both projects cost in excess of €1b each. Money was no object when it came to safety. There were four full time staff in charge of safety on our side, and many more on the contractor's side. If you wanted expensive safety equipment, it was bought without question. If you wanted to stop the job due to safety, you stopped. If you wanted to open a cage, place a ladder or even walk onto the site, you needed a permit.

During the life of both projects, close to 7,000 people worked on both sites. At the height of construction, 1,800 people were on site.

We had no deaths and a dozen minor injuries. The only major injury was a crushed foot, and the worker wont walk properly ever again - very sad.

Zero deaths and we won awards for that fact.

A death at work troubles me no-end. You say goodbye to your family in the morning; you're off to earn a living but you never return. It doesn't have to happen as we proved on our two jobs.

Exactly right - a zero tolerance attitude to death and injury is what is required these days and rightly so. I'd be interested to know what the similar results would be for South Africa, Brazil and Russia - as these are much less developed countries than ours and have had major sporting events construction.

 

[Spudulike]

The passport confiscation is a bit of a moot point at the moment, as none of them even have the financial means to get out of Qatar.

What? Did I really just read that correctly... if you are financially not able to travel, in your eyes it is okay to be restricted from having the freedom to do so purely on that basis alone? The fact is, the simple freedom of choice to leave (and get a job elsewhere in Qatar which you clearly fail to point out) has been taken away from them so they are trapped no matter what. Is that glaringly important point completely lost on you; seriously?

 

[Wandering Yid]

What? Did I really just read that correctly... if you are financially not able to travel, in your eyes it is okay to be restricted from having the freedom to do so purely on that basis alone? The fact is, the simple freedom of choice to leave (and get a job elsewhere in Qatar which you clearly fail to point out) has been taken away from them so they are trapped no matter what. Is that glaringly important point completely lost on you; seriously?

And you think allowing these workers to leave these jobs is really going to tackle the problem? What happens if a hundred workers up sticks one day and leave? The construction company brings in a hundred other poor mugs into exactly the same situation and nothing changes. It becomes a conveyor belt of human rights abuse.

My point is that without all the other human rights abuses (working hours, living conditions etc.), these workers wouldn't give a rats arse that they didn't have their passport, as they'd be content in their job, and making money to send back to their families. They agreed to move to Qatar to do a specific job where various promises were made, the problem is these promises haven't been kept. If they had been kept, there would be no reason to want to leave.

Wages, working hours and living standards - These are the things that need to be tackled to make a real change, obviously in an ideal world these workers would also have their passports, but I don't see it as top of the agenda, it's treating the symptoms of abuse rather than the cause.

Also I think it's a bit of a fantasy to think that these Nepalese labourers, with no language skills, little education etc, have a huge number of employment opportunities in Qatar, outside of construction, where these malpractices are pretty widespread across the industry.

P.S. No need for the aggressively patronising tone