Off Topic Politics Thread

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Today has been a salutary lesson as to what is wrong with politics. First Trump is heralded as some kind of saviour despite providing Israel with the military tools to flatten Gaza. The 20 point plan is unfeasible and I just feel that Netanyahu has only agreed to this as his objectives have been achieved. This is an utter humiliation for the Pakestians and it is wholly wrong to address this a the progress of peace. It is a shame.

Secondly, it appears that Elon Musk has paid for Simon Yexley Lennon's latest legal expenses. Musk should be barred from UK.
 
Ian Thumwood said:
Today has been a salutary lesson as to what is wrong with politics. First Trump is heralded as some kind of saviour despite providing Israel with the military tools to flatten Gaza. The 20 point plan is unfeasible and I just feel that Netanyahu has only agreed to this as his objectives have been achieved. This is an utter humiliation for the Pakestians and it is wholly wrong to address this a the progress of peace. It is a shame.

Secondly, it appears that Elon Musk has paid for Simon Yexley Lennon's latest legal expenses. Musk should be barred from UK.
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I'll admit I've not looked into the details in depth, as am suffering a bit of news overload, but though I wouldn't trust his motivations or long-term plans as far as I could throw the fat bugger, I do think he has (for whatever personal or business reasons) a motivation to bring peace across both this war, and in Ukraine. The fact that he's begun doing that must surely be applauded, however queasy it makes you feel.

To flatly not give him credit for such says more about your biases than anything else.

Would like to know how you see this as a humiliation for Palestinians? Genuine question as I say, I've not dug deep into it.
 
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The Palestinians have suffered harshly. All that is happened is that the influence of Hamas has been diminished. This is the only benefit to them. They have no homes and lack water and electricity. The leaders of Hamas have got their just desserts yet Netanyahu remains at large and will not face prosecution in The Hague.

There has been no recognition of the Palestinian state and only about 5 of rhe 20 objectives are attainable. Even representatives from countries like Jordan are now expressing doubts. There is no credible government to step into Gaza and nothing will be decided without the say so of Israel. I am not aware how the ingressions of Israeli settlers will be controlled. On top of this, Tony Blair has been mooted to help manage Gaza. Even Rory Stewart was pouring cold water on the idea that the governance by the West will improve matters.
 
Ian Thumwood said:
The Palestinians have suffered harshly. All that is happened is that the influence of Hamas has been diminished. This is the only benefit to them. They have no homes and lack water and electricity. The leaders of Hamas have got their just desserts yet Netanyahu remains at large and will not face prosecution in The Hague.

There has been no recognition of the Palestinian state and only about 5 of rhe 20 objectives are attainable. Even representatives from countries like Jordan are now expressing doubts. There is no credible government to step into Gaza and nothing will be decided without the say so of Israel. I am not aware how the ingressions of Israeli settlers will be controlled. On top of this, Tony Blair has been mooted to help manage Gaza. Even Rory Stewart was pouring cold water on the idea that the governance by the West will improve matters.
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The supposed genocide has been stopped, Israel have released 2,000 prisoners back to Palestine, aid is being immediately returned, and Hamas being de-fanged is the only realistic way of moving anything forwards - surely this is, at the very least, a good start, and something Trump deserves credit for?

If Hamas don't disarm, well that's on Hamas frankly, and the thing that's most devastating the Palestinian people will be that decision.

Whether or not this Palestinian Commission thing works, we'll just have to wait and see. There's not a great record of Western governance in the Middle East, but surely, surely the fact that the killing has stopped, a ceasefire is in place and there's some (little) hope to move things forward is a GOOD THING?

Curious to know what your alternative would be as a start point?
 
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It'sOnlyAGame said:
https://archive.md/SwQ7O
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I get the argument promoted here and I think that it is a salient point that the protesters in the West probably cannot understand that the inhabitants of Gaza are probably less exacting in what a good settlement means for them. I would concur with that yet I do not believe for one minute than Netanyahu will not try to make things as difficult as possible for the inhabitants of Gaza.

A better settlement would have seen Netanyahu removed - something that many Israelis would approve of. The involvement of Hamas at the negotiating table is also wrong and would have been unpalatable to the more Liberal Arab states. A "good" settlement would have seen Netanyahu and Hamas ostracised. I believe that there would have been an appetite for this.
 
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Ian Thumwood said:
I get the argument promoted here and I think that it is a salient point that the protesters in the West probably cannot understand that the inhabitants of Gaza are probably less exacting in what a good settlement means for them. I would concur with that yet I do not believe for one minute than Netanyahu will not try to make things as difficult as possible for the inhabitants of Gaza.

A better settlement would have seen Netanyahu removed - something that many Israelis would approve of. The involvement of Hamas at the negotiating table is also wrong and would have been unpalatable to the more Liberal Arab states. A "good" settlement would have seen Netanyahu and Hamas ostracised. I believe that there would have been an appetite for this.
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Fair enough, that would be ideal, but baby steps I guess.
 
Le Tissier's Laces said:
I'll admit I've not looked into the details in depth, as am suffering a bit of news overload, but though I wouldn't trust his motivations or long-term plans as far as I could throw the fat bugger, I do think he has (for whatever personal or business reasons) a motivation to bring peace across both this war, and in Ukraine. The fact that he's begun doing that must surely be applauded, however queasy it makes you feel.

To flatly not give him credit for such says more about your biases than anything else.

Would like to know how you see this as a humiliation for Palestinians? Genuine question as I say, I've not dug deep into it.
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Devastation, starvation, targeting of the civilian population there's any number of videos, drone footage, satellite images and first hand verified descriptions of the destruction of Gaza. Humiliation is only one word in a list many to describe the totally disproportionate response to the atrocities of Oct 7th.

If Trump and the many others involved, it's not just the blowhard self promoting orange gobshite's doing, has brought some respite to the Palestinians and there are some meaningful talks that include addressing the ultra zionists oppression of Palestinians of the West bank then credit to all.

It's not if but when it all kicks off again.
 
StJabbo1 said:
Devastation, starvation, targeting of the civilian population there's any number of videos, drone footage, satellite images and first hand verified descriptions of the destruction of Gaza. Humiliation is only one word in a list many to describe the totally disproportionate response to the atrocities of Oct 7th.

If Trump and the many others involved, it's not just the blowhard self promoting orange gobshite's doing, has brought some respite to the Palestinians and there are some meaningful talks that include addressing the ultra zionists oppression of Palestinians of the West bank then credit to all.

It's not if but when it all kicks off again.
Click to expand...
Re Oct 7th, there were numerous warnings all ignored by the IDF and the much lauded Mossad.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-i...hamas-attack-on-eve-of-oct-7-its-probe-shows/ and "For years, units of young female conscripts had one job here. It was to sit in surveillance bases for hours, looking for signs of anything suspicious."

"In the months leading up to the 7 October attacks by Hamas, they did begin to see things: practice raids, mock hostage-taking, and farmers behaving strangely on the other side of the fence."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67958260

There were also numerous reports of Egyptian warnings days before the attack.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt...l-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/
 
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StJabbo1 said:
Devastation, starvation, targeting of the civilian population there's any number of videos, drone footage, satellite images and first hand verified descriptions of the destruction of Gaza. Humiliation is only one word in a list many to describe the totally disproportionate response to the atrocities of Oct 7th.

If Trump and the many others involved, it's not just the blowhard self promoting orange gobshite's doing, has brought some respite to the Palestinians and there are some meaningful talks that include addressing the ultra zionists oppression of Palestinians of the West bank then credit to all.

It's not if but when it all kicks off again.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t talking about the Israeli response to October 7th though, I was talking about the ceasefire. It’s surely a cause for celebration that the killing has finally stopped. It’s what we’ve all been hoping for for ages, let alone the Palestinian civilians themselves.
 
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StJabbo1 said:
Re Oct 7th, there were numerous warnings all ignored by the IDF and the much lauded Mossad.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-i...hamas-attack-on-eve-of-oct-7-its-probe-shows/ and "For years, units of young female conscripts had one job here. It was to sit in surveillance bases for hours, looking for signs of anything suspicious."

"In the months leading up to the 7 October attacks by Hamas, they did begin to see things: practice raids, mock hostage-taking, and farmers behaving strangely on the other side of the fence."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-6795826

There were also numerous reports of Egyptian warnings days before the attack.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt...l-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/
Click to expand...

The BBC link doesn’t work . Strange .
 
Le Tissier's Laces said:
I wasn’t talking about the Israeli response to October 7th though, I was talking about the ceasefire. It’s surely a cause for celebration that the killing has finally stopped. It’s what we’ve all been hoping for for ages, let alone the Palestinian civilians themselves.
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Get your point. Can but hope the ceasefire holds and becomes a lasting peace. I don't know if Trump has acknowledged the contributions others in reaching this point, I'm sure a lot of unreported negotiations have been taking place.
 
There have been some good items on line today about the demise of Hamas. It would appear that they have recruited almost as many new members as have been killed. 75 % of the tunnels remain intact and Hamas are now actively involved in fighting other gangs. Hamas itself looks likely to split into two factions with one looking to continue the fight against Israel.
Other Islamic extremist factions are not part of Hamas' agreement and will continue the fight. The claims of IDF that Hamas has been destroyed would appear well short of the mark.

I cannot see this truce lasting more than a few weeks.
 
Ian Thumwood said:
There have been some good items on line today about the demise of Hamas. It would appear that they have recruited almost as many new members as have been killed. 75 % of the tunnels remain intact and Hamas are now actively involved in fighting other gangs. Hamas itself looks likely to split into two factions with one looking to continue the fight against Israel.
Other Islamic extremist factions are not part of Hamas' agreement and will continue the fight. The claims of IDF that Hamas has been destroyed would appear well short of the mark.

I cannot see this truce lasting more than a few weeks.
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We may well see skirmishes between Hamas and the IDF, but I do believe Israel will continue to retreat from Gaza now the hostages have been released.

It’s rarely reported by UK media/BBC, but about the same amount of Israeli soldiers have died in the war as were killed in October 7th and whilst that pales into insignificance compared to the losses from Gazans and the destruction of their homes, this is not a conflict without loss for Israel and I’m sure they have no desire to continue urban warfare
 
More lectures incoming.

https://www.spiked-online.com/podcast-episode/how-trumps-gaza-deal-shatters-the-lies-about-israel/

"Theoretical country I admire for trying to find a peaceful solution is Qatar. They got attacked by Israel for the privilege."
Thumwood

Seeing as Thumwood has vouched for Qatar, I guess it must be a different Qatar to the one mentioned in the video.

"Qatar is frequently called out for being at the heart of so much of this disinformation campaign"
Natasha Hausdorff

Not to mention Qatar giving refuge to the leadership of Hamas, it was they who Israel targeted. A small detail left out of the comment above. It's quite remarkable that after a holiday trip you can become an expert on a country's political motives.
 
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tomw24 said:
What an absolute disgrace that the CPS have dropped the charges. The head of the CPS should be sacked for this. And claims that the government are putting economic relations with China ahead of national security are downright alarming. Smoke and fire and all that.

Starmer and CPS face questions as China spy row deepens - BBC News
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A couple of observations, the Tories trying to score political points is out of order, it happened on their watch. The two individuals concerned are innocent until proved otherwise, no trial means they cannot defend themselvws.
 
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