Off Topic Politics Thread

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I usually agree with your posts but I believe that the Koran is actually more of a
manual informing you to how lead a pure and spiritual life. I have not read it although I have enjoyed the Suffi poetry of Rumi and the novel Conference of the Birds. It is totally different from the quasi history of the Old and New Testament which I regret to find to be somewhat ridiculous.

No, Ian. It is another Monotheistic monolith. What is monotheism for when most cultures for thousands of years embraced plurality of gods and faiths? It is about control, pure and simple.

The first monotheistic culture which really took off was Judaism. They were rejected as they see it as they set out the belief that everyone else worshipped false gods. Up until then you could worship whatever ridiculous idol you wanted. The advent of Judaism created something new - religion than united through ostracism of non-believers. It is the only faith that maintains itself as both a race and a religion.

As such, it annoyed many but really had little ability to attack the basis of polytheistic life. Because you couldn’t join even if you wanted to.

Then the writers of the Bible struck a genius idea. Monotheism, but adding some more books and making it IMPERATIVE to spread the faith. They rebranded it Christianity and ignored the racial part.


All Islam is is another fine tuning of this Imperialist religion. It also relies on the denial of all other faiths, but goes even further and says we are all born Muslim and those who do not believe need to be reconverted. Why? Because faith is nonsense designed to further imperial aspirations.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

He was inspired by the nail bomber decades before Farage (nineties) was even heard of and had been building and building to the point of his crime! The murder was only hours after that poster was unveiled and highly unlikely to have seen it in that timeframe!

I distinctly remember it being cited as being a factor at the time when another female MP and colleague of Jo Cox was interviewed on Radio 4. You may be right about the time frame but the murderer did make anti immigration declamations at the time he committed the crime.

I just feel that Farage contributed to the environment which facilitated the murderer's warped perception of the world. I concede that I should have worded by post more carefully but the point was that Farage ferments hatred and he cannot expect special treatment if he has inspired protesters to do things like burn down hotels housing immigrants.

In the past extemist politicians like Enoch Powell were quickly challenged. It is disappointing that the BBC give Farage the chance to make unsupported and provocative statements. He should not expect special treatment and trust that the reduction in security will make him dial down the message.

 

[ImpSaint]

I distinctly remember it being cited as being a factor at the time when another female MP and colleague of Jo Cox was interviewed on Radio 4. You may be right about the time frame but the murderer did make anti immigration declamations at the time he committed the crime.

I just feel that Farage contributed to the environment which facilitated the murderer's warped perception of the world. I concede that I should have worded by post more carefully but the point was that Farage ferments hatred and he cannot expect special treatment if he has inspired protesters to do things like burn down hotels housing immigrants.

In the past extemist politicians like Enoch Powell were quickly challenged. It is disappointing that the BBC give Farage the chance to make unsupported and provocative statements. He should not expect special treatment and trust that the reduction in security will make him dial down the message.

We were in the midst of Brexit and people wanted so much to link it to Brexit itself but the reality is this guy was a nazi and had been slow building for nearly 20 years. Even the Guardian while admitting at the time of the case that he was a slow burner could not help themselves but keep adding Brexit references into it but the truth is this guy was mental, had spent 20 years collecting, researching, buying stuff, reading US stuff on KKK and other groups like that!

You seem to forget that at the time of the Brexit campaign everything bad was attempted to be linked to Brexit! especially from publications very vocally against it.

It might sound right for someone to think "Brexit inspired him to act on his impulses" but that cannot be said with any truth. His statements of Jo Cox being a traiter to the nation were 100% wrapped up in non EU "entrants" to the country and almost zero to do with being in or out of the EU! People of colour, not Polish speaking whiteys.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I think monotheism only became about control when it became organised.

As you might have guessed, I love Roman history and I guess there was probably a period of 250 to 350 years when it was not organised. The initial hostility stemmed from the Idea of one god being shocking and this did not gain wider acceptance until Constantine. It was also the reason why the Romans disliked Judaism although I think that you also need to look at the political situation in Palestine in 1st century which was akin to the Balkans in 1990s. Adrian Goldsworthy has written about the different Jewish factions fighting against each other in the first century and he came to the conclusion that he wax sympathetic to the Romans !

I also understand that Mohammad is a credible historical figure unlike Jesus...the latter actually more likely to have been the leader of a Jewish sect /faction at the time. He know Jesus was genuine but probably a very different person than that portrayed in thr New Testament.

 

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I think monotheism only became about control when it became organised.

Which is what Christianity is. And Islam. And modern Judaism. Since the idea of one God was weaponised against those with many gods, it has become a key facet in nationalistic world building.

 

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We were in the midst of Brexit and people wanted so much to link it to Brexit itself but the reality is this guy was a nazi and had been slow building for nearly 20 years. Even the Guardian while admitting at the time of the case that he was a slow burner could not help themselves but keep adding Brexit references into it but the truth is this guy was mental, had spent 20 years collecting, researching, buying stuff, reading US stuff on KKK and other groups like that!

You seem to forget that at the time of the Brexit campaign everything bad was attempted to be linked to Brexit! especially from publications very vocally against it.

It might sound right for someone to think "Brexit inspired him to act on his impulses" but that cannot be said with any truth. His statements of Jo Cox being a traiter to the nation were 100% wrapped up in non EU "entrants" to the country and almost zero to do with being in or out of the EU! People of colour, not Polish speaking whiteys.

Look back on that time now. Corbyn stood side by side with Cameron in grief. Then look at the disgrace Trump has made in weaponising grief. The world has tumbled.

 

[ImpSaint]

If you want an example of how anti Brexiters (Pro Brexiters did this kind of false straight line linking too) wanted to link this poster to Joe Cox's death then a good example is an LSE blog written the November after the vote, complaining about how these Brexit and Joe Cox's murder were not being (officially) linked, contained this snippet within it:

"A few days before the murder of Jo Cox, Nigel Farage stood before an anti-immigration poster with the slogan ‘breaking point’; the poster bore an eerie resemblance to a Nazi propaganda movie."

So this sounds pretty feasible.............apart from the fact that Farage actually stood in front of that poster in the morning of 16th June 2016 and Joe Cox was killed just before 1pm on the same day!

So not a few days before at all! A few hours is stretching it! It is unlikely, although not impossible, that Thomas Mair saw that poster before he decided "Today is the day."

Was Joe Cox killed because of her political views? Yes there is no question about that, but it was more to do with actual long running immigration policy and not because she supported remain.

 

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If you want an example of how anti Brexiters (Pro Brexiters did it too) wanted to link this poster to Joe Cox's death then a good example is an LSE blog written the November after the vote, complaining about how these 2 events were not being linked, contained this snippet within it:

"A few days before the murder of Jo Cox, Nigel Farage stood before an anti-immigration poster with the slogan ‘breaking point’; the poster bore an eerie resemblance to a Nazi propaganda movie."

So this sounds pretty feasible.............apart from the fact that Farage actually stood in front of that poster in the morning of 16th June 2016 and Joe Cox was killed just before 1pm on the same day!

So not a few days before at all! A few hours is stretching it!

The only thing I will say, and I really don’t think Brexit was a particular trigger for him, but witnesses said he shouted: Keep Britain independent! As he committed the attack.

So heightened feelings during Brexit probably played a part.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I think monotheism only became about control when it became organised.

As you might have guessed, I love Roman history and I guess there was probably a period of 250 to 350 years when it was not organised. The initial hostility stemmed from the Idea of one god being shocking and this did not gain wider acceptance until Constantine. It was also the reason why the Romans disliked Judaism although I think that you also need to look at the political situation in Palestine in 1st century which was akin to the Balkans in 1990s. Adrian Goldsworthy has written about the different Jewish factions fighting against each other in the first century and he came to the conclusion that he wax sympathetic to the Romans !

I also understand that Mohammad is a credible historical figure unlike Jesus...the latter actually more likely to have been the leader of a Jewish sect /faction at the time. He know Jesus was genuine but probably a very different person than that portrayed in thr New Testament.

Ian, you’re edging into the world of cobblers again I’m afraid. The Qu’ran and associated hadiths etc are so riddled with inconsistency and hypocrisy, they make the Old Testament read like a viable historical document. You’re a bright chap, and if you’re genuinely interested in such things, I’d implore you once again to read Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabeel Quereshi (a devout Muslim). I think you’d find it fascinating and that you’d learn a lot.

 

[Archers Road]

I think this is an interesting debate because the mainstream opinion within the Muslim community will almost certainly conflate Jews , Zionism and Israel and they will never cut any of them any slack whatsoever. This is even from people who originate from Pakistan, India, SE Asia. I just think that this is now a default mindset which we will not agree with. I would go further and argue that this excludes tolerance and maybe even a lack of empathy with other religions. I think Islam is generally a religion of peace and sects like Suffism have a spirituality well beyond Christianity.

I do find Islam fascinating. There was a discussion on the radio about 4 weeks ago which discussed the Koran. I did not realise that the reason it is revered so much is because it is the only religious book that is deemed to contain the actual words of God. Even most people who purport to be Christian realise that the New Testament is a collection of dubious and varied collection of accounts by mortals which can easily be discredited by reference to the historic accounts of Emperor's like Augustus. I think I can totally appreciate the superiority of Islam even though I am an atheist. This is because it is far more authentic than most other religions. If you concur that the Koran is the word of God, why would you not feel other religions are either inferior or even dishonest ? No other religion can claim this but you can appreciate why it would be so easy to get radicalised especially in environments like NE England with so much poverty.....not an excuse before someone jumps down my throat.

Not that I'm any sort of expert, but I think you are describing a simplistic interpretation of Islam which is by no means universal. For the record, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully side by side throughout the Middle East for centuries, under Ottoman rule. Closer to home, I could introduce you to Muslim colleagues and neighbours of mine who wear their religion much more lightly than that.

It is true that Muslims consider the Qu'ran to be the received word of God, whereas Jews and Christians have a different relationship with scripture, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to a variety of interpretations. The written word is like that.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Not that I'm any sort of expert, but I think you are describing a simplistic interpretation of Islam which is by no means universal. For the record, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully side by side throughout the Middle East for centuries, under Ottoman rule. Closer to home, I could introduce you to Muslim colleagues and neighbours of mine who wear their religion much more lightly than that.

It is true that Muslims consider the Qu'ran to be the received word of God, whereas Jews and Christians have a different relationship with scripture, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to a variety of interpretations. The written word is like that.

It's also very much a 'taught' religion by elders, rather than one that welcomes individual examination. You're right that the Qu'ran is very much open to interpretation (and twisting), but it's also very much closed to ideas like doubt and questioning. The very fact that it's considered the 'received word of God' is (a large) part of the issue - in that you're not really allowed to point out the glaring inconsistency throughout - that would be haraam to do so, and punishable. So Islamic teaching (and as noted, that is very much rooted in what you're told by elders) rejects anyone looking at it and thinking "this is actually a bit nonsensical", whereas Christianity actively encourages doubt.

 

[Archers Road]

It's also very much a 'taught' religion by elders, rather than one that welcomes individual examination. You're right that the Qu'ran is very much open to interpretation (and twisting), but it's also very much closed to ideas like doubt and questioning. The very fact that it's considered the 'received word of God' is (a large) part of the issue - in that you're not really allowed to point out the glaring inconsistency throughout - that would be haraam to do so, and punishable. So Islamic teaching (and as noted, that is very much rooted in what you're told by elders) rejects anyone looking at it and thinking "this is actually a bit nonsensical", whereas Christianity actively encourages doubt.

So it comes down to historic and cultural context then; who the elders are, how they interpret the message, and how much influence they have over their congregations. Iranian clerics, for example, probably don't encourage any debate. In Turkey or Egypt, or among Muslims in India, that may not be so much the case? I don't know, I'm just speculating tbh. But there's an interesting historical parallel; with the invention of the printing press in Europe, translations of the Bible into English, German etc, caused the established churches all sorts of problems. The Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

So it comes down to historic and cultural context then; who the elders are, how they interpret the message, and how much influence they have over their congregations. Iranian clerics, for example, probably don't encourage any debate. In Turkey or Egypt, or among Muslims in India, that may not be so much the case? I don't know, I'm just speculating tbh. But there's an interesting historical parallel; with the invention of the printing press in Europe, translations of the Bible into English, German etc, caused the established churches all sorts of problems. The Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand.

Very much so, and the teachings are passed on from parent to child. You're not meant to 'examine' the Qu'ran in any analytical sense, or to question the word of elders.

(Again, I'd recommend reading the book I mentioned to Ian - it covers all this very well).

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I must admit, I am struggling not to sound dismissive of religion on here, due to my non beliefs. And I do not want to do that at all as everyone has different beliefs.

From a scientific point of view more can be proved by physics than by any readings of any scriptures IMHO. I was indoctrinated as a Catholic from birth, but slowly as I looked more into the cosmos and physics, it all became a bit irrelevant to me. I do call myself a Catholic Atheist though as the indoctrination from birth has given me values, I just don't believe in a being anymore driving the (let's face it) insignificant world we inhabit in the vast cosmos.

What I do believe is that if you believe and it helps you through your life and helps you be a better person, then I really don't care what you believe in. This is my issue with religion. It is very tribal like football clubs. "My religion is better than yours". "I will have to beat you up or murder you as you are a rival religion"

I can't help but take a step back and think

"It's all bollocks really"

 

[StJabbo1]

I had door knocking evangelists who wouldn't take a polite no thanks. Finally got rid of them by telling them as far as I was concerned god is only dog spelt backwards.

 

[Libby]

Sounds like one of the victims was hit by armed police

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I must admit, I am struggling not to sound dismissive of religion on here, due to my non beliefs. And I do not want to do that at all as everyone has different beliefs.

From a scientific point of view more can be proved by physics than by any readings of any scriptures IMHO. I was indoctrinated as a Catholic from birth, but slowly as I looked more into the cosmos and physics, it all became a bit irrelevant to me. I do call myself a Catholic Atheist though as the indoctrination from birth has given me values, I just don't believe in a being anymore driving the (let's face it) insignificant world we inhabit in the vast cosmos.

What I do believe is that if you believe and it helps you through your life and helps you be a better person, then I really don't care what you believe in. This is my issue with religion. It is very tribal like football clubs. "My religion is better than yours". "I will have to beat you up or murder you as you are a rival religion"

I can't help but take a step back and think

"It's all bollocks really"

I agree with alot of this but my scepticism is centred around historical record especially as the Roman's were famously open to all but monotheistic religions. Some of the accounts in the Bible reflect the morals of the Antiquity , Middle Ages and the Renaissance . A good point gas been made about the printing press.

I just feel that Islam is very different. There are clearly precedents with Judaism and Christianity but the whole premise of conducting your life in accordance with the word of God and the religion outlining what is acceptable and what isn't makes it a marked contrast from Christianity which I feel us barely credible in 21st century or at least very awkward. I think this is why people looking for spiritual meaning in their lives are turning away from it. Islam has more resilience.

 

[tomw24]

Sounds like one of the victims was hit by armed police

****. Also another innocent civilian was shot but luckily only suffered non-life threatening injuries. Looks like they were standing behind the synagogue door. I don't know what could have happened for the shots to miss their target - will have to wait for the results of the investigation.

 

[ImpSaint]

Some of you who think Farage is the bees knees might like to spend 5 minutes watching this.

(243) Who is Nigel Farage? - YouTube

I don't think anyone on here thinks Farage is the bees knees!

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I agree with alot of this but my scepticism is centred around historical record especially as the Roman's were famously open to all but monotheistic religions. Some of the accounts in the Bible reflect the morals of the Antiquity , Middle Ages and the Renaissance . A good point gas been made about the printing press.

I just feel that Islam is very different. There are clearly precedents with Judaism and Christianity but the whole premise of conducting your life in accordance with the word of God and the religion outlining what is acceptable and what isn't makes it a marked contrast from Christianity which I feel us barely credible in 21st century or at least very awkward. I think this is why people looking for spiritual meaning in their lives are turning away from it. Islam has more resilience.

Nonsense. Sorry, Ian. I can’t really be bothered to go into why, other than again to implore you to read that book. Christianity is absolutely about conducting life in accordance with the word of God, and outlines what is and isn’t acceptable. Partly also because this isn’t meant to be a religion thread.