It looks an 80/20 White British to British Muslim split to me from that photo. Either way I think it's fair to assume if you're holding a placard with SWP on it and their website address you're a supporter.
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It looks an 80/20 White British to British Muslim split to me from that photo. Either way I think it's fair to assume if you're holding a placard with SWP on it and their website address you're a supporter.
I completely disagree. It just means the SWP are very good at getting out and self-promoting through signage.
Then they're pretty well organised and funded given there's "no left in the UK"
There are 6000 of them. Total. So, yeah, they exist. And they are funded well enough to print out bits of card at various events.
But if you were going to argue the UK has a left, why not go for the Green Party?
Probably because I see them (Greens) as "mainstream left" which is good for politics even though I disagree with a fair few of their policies, whereas I see SWP/UAF/BNP types as extremists which I think is bad. Anyway, I've been up since dark o'clock this morning and am heading to bed, goodnight
Ok, fair do. I think we are arguing different things anyway. No left in mainstream politics is more what I meant. Socialism is the heart of the left and there is very little of that to be found.Probably because I see them (Greens) as "mainstream left" which is good for politics even though I disagree with a fair few of their policies, whereas I see SWP/UAF/BNP types as extremists which I think is bad. Anyway, I've been up since dark o'clock this morning and am heading to bed, goodnight
On the contrary. I am well aware it is a tiny organisation of no more than a few thousand members, however it is very succesful at getting their placards held by all and sundry. I agree with you entirely about the Tory party and while we're at it the Labour party too, but this scandal despite being in 2013 (As you state) was only apologised for last year, hidden away in their rag, not posted by any of their hierarchy on their personal accounts and this was tackled by those that left the SWP and formed rs21 on their site, bearing in mind 10 of those that were in that 2013 hierarchy were still in position last year:
https://revsoc21.uk/2024/05/21/the-swp-apology-is-too-little-too-late
Also counters from the Socialist Party on all sorts of issues like this on a pamplet released just before the 7th October attack, which far from protesting for Palestinian people, they actually back Hamas:
“We unconditionally support Hamas when it is engaged in military or non-military struggles against Israel”. So far removed is the SWP from the approach of Marxism that its unconditional support for Hamas has culminated in not only its failure to condemn, or even criticise, the brutal Hamas-led assault on Israeli civilians on 7 October, but two days after the atrocities the SWP carried an article titled: “Rejoice as Palestinian resistance humiliates racist Israel”
https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/a...24/the-swp-and-the-israel-palestine-conflict/
They are well known as far back as the Battle of Lewisham for "wanting to be involved" but then demanding the protest is all about them hence why Owen Jones (who wants it to be about him instead) refuses to go on any march they are in any way dominant in and why others try to make people aware and not accept their placards, however the way these protests are these days, as much day trippers than serious activists, people apparently just blindly accept things that are given to them to wave as if they were that coloured piece of paper put on your seat at the footie stadium for you to hold up at the appropriate time with no idea what it is gonna read from the other side of the stadium!!
https://x.com/TransActivismUK/status/1617210407986384902
https://www.basepublication.org/?p=730
Maybe your neighbour could do with a bit of reading up as it isn't something new nor is it something from the past but you do not have to look far to find a never ending stream of this stuff stretching back from the 70s right through to, as you can see above the present day. Examples of SWP forcefully moving people from the front of marches to they can walk at the front with their banner making it all about them.
And I repeat as earlier on about the messaging. If you as a protestor were handed a placard with a message like Stop the War with a logo of the EDL / BNP or even Reform or Tories would you wave it around? Or refuse it, or discard it.
I see on your answer to that protest photo that all of those people support "Free Palestine" which I have no doubt they do however as you see from the SWP statement, they actually don't. They support Hamas who definitely do not want the people of Palestine to be free. Free of being neighbours to Israel and Jews yes but if Hamas achieved that the people of Palestine would not be free! Hamas would not let people be free at least not as the people on this march consider freedom to be anyway.
You also say "9/10 have no idea what the SWP is" BINGO. So these people with good intentions that complain about thick, low information people not knowing what they vote for.................do not know what the SWP, that they are holding a placard up advertising is....but they still do it. So by that logic if Patriotic Alternative or East Anglian Patriots got 20 of their crowd to dress nice, wear fake blue wigs to hide their skinheads to hand out "STOP THE WAR" placards with their logos on it then these protestors would be happily waving them around all day too?
When virtually all the parties of the left are against SWP or their UAF > SUTR fronts..........it isn't "us righties" looking for something to shake our fists at. The left itself does not like them and the fact that these protests "9/10" don't know what they are waving other than the slogan printed in the big letters is worrying seeing as these are supposed to be the good guys that are better educated and informed than us low information, uneducated know nothings that keep voting the wrong way.
SWP have a profile at protests which far outweigh's their actual support. Many of their members left after the internal handling od the rape enquiry. If the minster raving looney party handed out placards, we would be having the same argumement about them.
I think that auppprt for Palestine is probably far more mainstream and will exist to various extent within Liberal , Labour, SNP and Green party members plus most of the independent MPs. It is a mainstream issue that is en ppint along with Enviromental and Trans issues. Just feel that all 3 are issues progressive society is trying to deal with. This is the direction of travel in uk. Support for Israel is progressively an issue that is unpalatable to deal with.
I think that auppprt for Palestine is probably far more mainstream and will exist to various extent within Liberal , Labour, SNP and Green party members plus most of the independent MPs. It is a mainstream issue that is en ppint along with Enviromental and Trans issues. Just feel that all 3 are issues progressive society is trying to deal with. This is the direction of travel in uk. Support for Israel is progressively an issue that is unpalatable to deal with.
90% of those placards have "Socialist Worker" right at the top. then the message bigger in the middle. I can't tell you what the bottom section in arabic says as it is one of the languages I don't speak
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But they wouldn't be accepting one that had Conservative party or reform or EDL or BNP because while they do lots of reading on their opponents they are blissfully unaware what half of those that call themselves the left are all about nor their history nor their current activities. They are so busy being anti the other side that they think anyone else that is anti the other side are a bunch of angels just like them.
So many strawmen here that I could start a farm and never worry about ever seeing a bird.
And do you, hand on heart, think that these people are members of the SWP?
Never said they were. I said why are they holding up placards supporting the SWP? Why are they advertising blindly for the SWP? SWP don;t have enough members to get 1 MP elected even if they all moved to the same town but they are very very good at advertising and making out they are in charge of every protest like I say often to the disgruntlement of other groups or organisers of marches.
It’s just so much disingenuous argument, Imp. Really disappointing lack of integrity for your normal standards and based on some truly ludicrous assumptions.
I won’t bore you by going over all of them, but:
1. Your entire argument is based around assuming that pro Gaza EQUALS leftist. You ignore the Muslim community who are a wide voting block and also single issue protestors, who are otherwise apolitical or even right leaning.
2. You admit that the SWP are so tiny to be almost a non-entity, but then deride left voters for not knowing enough about them to consider the merits of holding up a sign. Comparing them to notorious groups like the BNP, that even non-politicals understand, is truly ridiculous.
I never said Pro Gaza = leftist. However I would say most people on those marches are leftist. Probably not the actual muslims on the march who might be (don't want to say definitely
as that would be foolish) be quite socially conservative at heart despite voting for "left wing" partiesSo people are aware of far right groups, but not far left ones. I get ya
The left = good guys. Only thugs on the right.So the left itself begs people not to take the SWP placards because they know the score..........but the well intentioned folks do anyway because the middle bit has a slogan they agree with.
I don't think anyone is ignoring the muslim community and while you say they are right leaning I don't understand how you can say they are apolitical when they dis vote overwhelmingly for Labour and now for their Independents as well as some still voting for Labour. Its not like they don't bother to vote, they do and if they were apolitical then they wouldn't have switched to the Pro Palestine Independents last time round. They are very political. Surely someone who goes on a march is political by definition? Unless its the "Sack the Board" kind who are begging to be relegated under FFP rules in 2 seasons time.
The reality is that most are probably even more socially conservative than the traditional Labour voters that went to Boris and are now supporting Reform! Strange World. Everybody is voting the wrong way.
Either way the reason no-one knows the background or tactics or side rent a mobs of the SWP is because the "right wing media" that is so busy "promoting Farage and the Tories" makes no mention about the far left because they are too busy making a big thing out of fringe right wing non entities and ignoring the thugs on the left.
And the Farage thing is that they got so confident of their control of things by putting Nick Griffin on QT and letting him dismantle himself that they though they could do it with Farage and keep trying to do it with Farage.........and failing. When they give Farage airtime it is because they are so confident in themselves that they think they can take him down. and they think they have after they've done it.
We see this all the time over the past couple of decades whether it be Cathy Newman or the beeb woman trying to outdo Jordan Peterson and making themselves look an arse, yet still in their minds they came out on top and "showed him" right through to things like Naga and Charlie grilling KemiB on why she hasn't watched a netflix drama, sneering away and ending it thinking they'd done some big gotcha.
If they took the time to "educate" the country about BNP and EDL.........why do they ignore problem factors on the left? So much so that even the left are unaware of what theses left groups are about? other than 3 words in the middle of a placard?
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Again, so much wrong here it is hard to respond. First of all, I said Muslims AND/ OR apoliticals / right leaning people.I never said Pro Gaza = leftist. However I would say most people on those marches are leftist. Probably not the actual muslims on the march who might be (don't want to say definitely
So people are aware of far right groups, but not far left ones. I get ya
So the left itself begs people not to take the SWP placards because they know the score..........but the well intentioned folks do anyway because the middle bit has a slogan they agree with.
I don't think anyone is ignoring the muslim community and while you say they are right leaning I don't understand how you can say they are apolitical when they dis vote overwhelmingly for Labour and now for their Independents as well as some still voting for Labour. Its not like they don't bother to vote, they do and if they were apolitical then they wouldn't have switched to the Pro Palestine Independents last time round. They are very political. Surely someone who goes on a march is political by definition? Unless its the "Sack the Board" kind who are begging to be relegated under FFP rules in 2 seasons time.
The reality is that most are probably even more socially conservative than the traditional Labour voters that went to Boris and are now supporting Reform! Strange World. Everybody is voting the wrong way.
Either way the reason no-one knows the background or tactics or side rent a mobs of the SWP is because the "right wing media" that is so busy "promoting Farage and the Tories" makes no mention about the far left because they are too busy making a big thing out of fringe right wing non entities and ignoring the thugs on the left.
And the Farage thing is that they got so confident of their control of things by putting Nick Griffin on QT and letting him dismantle himself that they though they could do it with Farage and keep trying to do it with Farage.........and failing. When they give Farage airtime it is because they are so confident in themselves that they think they can take him down. and they think they have after they've done it.
We see this all the time over the past couple of decades whether it be Cathy Newman or the beeb woman trying to outdo Jordan Peterson and making themselves look an arse, yet still in their minds they came out on top and "showed him" right through to things like Naga and Charlie grilling KemiB on why she hasn't watched a netflix drama, sneering away and ending it thinking they'd done some big gotcha.
If they took the time to "educate" the country about BNP and EDL.........why do they ignore problem factors on the left? So much so that even the left are unaware of what theses left groups are about? other than 3 words in the middle of a placard?
Secondly, you are still trying to make out that picking up a sign at a protest means you support the group giving it out. That is just laughable. All people are thinking is: thus sign says what I think.
The fact is that whatever you think of the SWP, nobody is seeing those signs and becoming radicalised against Jews or to hide rapes under the carpet. This is all very silly.
Oh, and please don’t bring up the increasingly insane Jordan Peterson if you want to be taken seriously…
I was referring to Jordan Peterson when he purely spoke about philosophy. I can agree with you he's gone a bit mad over recent years. But then I'm not religious so maybe to some he is still a GOAT to them?
But on the placard thing I do think that people who constantly use arguments against their opponents being uneducated and low information that they should surely be asking themselves "what is this Socialist Worker plastered at the top of my placard" in the same way some on there might question holding a "Freedom for Palestine" if it said HAMAS on the top...........although I daresay a fair percentage would still go with that!
Bit far to say a placard is going to radicalise them but they're doing lots of free advertising for something they "know nothing about."
I'll do this one and leave it there because I Think we've done this subject now and we don't really agree, or misunderstand what each other is saying but...
These 2 "River to the Sea" placards have Socialist Worker on the top of them! Surely the SWP know that is considered anti-semitic? And if the protestors are just agreeing with the message in the middle.........
What does that say?
Socialist worker website is selling this poster.......still!
https://socialistworker.co.uk/product/from-the-river-to-the-sea-palestine-will-be-free-a3-poster/
These 2 "River to the Sea" placards have Socialist Worker on the top of them! Surely the SWP know that is considered anti-semitic? And if the protestors are just agreeing with the message in the middle.........
What does that say?Socialist worker website is selling this poster.......still!
https://socialistworker.co.uk/product/from-the-river-to-the-sea-palestine-will-be-free-a3-poster/
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Entirely fair shout. I thought he'd given them two weeks to sort their **** out, but yes in fairness he does say "within" so I take it back. Not that I think he ever had any intention of not doing the whole bombing lark, but that's another thing.