Off Topic Politics Thread

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Agree with all that. Very silly comment by them. Probably meant nothing by it but still unacceptable.

It drove me to look them up on Spotify though! I bet a lot of people have done the same. Not sure it is my thing.

 

[LincolnSaint]

Lincoln

That is a well thought out post but it is interesting to read what you have highlighted in bold as this was precisely why i was arguing the GM enquiry had to proceed. In cases where lethal force is used , it is important that police officers are held to accoint and exonerated if necessary. As stated, the threshold for making a case is low but in these circumstances where someone not doing their job properly has cost a person their life. If a doctor had not followed proceedings with the consequence , they woukd face a GM enquiry. Why should it not relate to a firearms officer.

I think alot of the problem stems from the fact this involved the Met . Probably time for the Met to be reconstructed along the same lines that has happened in Northern Ireland.

From an earlier post you made, in your opinion, what does a police force without guns do when faced with armed (conventionally or otherwise) criminals or terrorists?

Do you believe police officers have the right to act in self defence?

 

[Puck]

Puck

We should follow the EU's model and try to negotiate more trade with China. Given the fact that China is already caching precious materials necessary for tech products , we needs closer ties with China and not side with Trump.

How can you want to cut ties with America because of Trump - despite the obvious damage this would do to us - but be happy to align with a state known to be murderous, authoritarian and generally far more evil than Trump on his worst day?

You also condemn Israel's actions in Gaza as genocide and say we should show support for their opponents but want closer relations with a Chinese state whose treatment of the Uyghurs likely involves crimes against humanity including genocide, forced sterilisation, torture and sexual abuse.

None of this is consistent or makes any sense.

 

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I think it is only right that any case of someone being shot by a police officer is properly investigated, but this is a bit like the days when paramedics were getting sued for performing CPR. In the heat of the moment, an officer has to make a split second decision about how to deal with people actively putting others in danger to avoid arrest. I think at the point you start using a car to batter your way through officers you are making yourself a valid target. Just turn off the engine and wait. Better than dying.

 

[tomw24]

If a Doctor had someone die on their operating table, it does not necessarily follow that they have committed misconduct.

Just because someone died it does not mean that the officers have breached any powers, policies or infractions. The officer has already had accountability. He was tried in court, in front of a jury of his peers.

I asked if you'd read Sal Naseems comments. He clearly states they only brought this forward to appease community tensions. Rowe's full statement shows the IOPC are still playing to the gallery. This has nothing to do with misconduct and everything to do with showing "communities" that the IOPC are on their side.

I'd still genuinely be interested in your answers to those questions. What would you have done in those circumstances?

Edit- you keep saying the officer didn't follow procedure. Where are you getting that from?

Of course, there could be secondary effects of this down the line where firearms officers DON'T pull the trigger when they should out of fear of prosecution/misconduct hearings. And if an innocent person dies as a result then that officer would probably be held accountable. I think it's ****ing ludicrous that this particular case is still going on.

Any emergency worker CANNOT be worried about potential repercussions when carrying out their line of duty. Their jobs are hard enough as it is.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Of course, there could be secondary effects of this down the line where firearms officers DON'T pull the trigger when they should out of fear of prosecution/misconduct hearings. And if an innocent person dies as a result then that officer would probably be held accountable. I think it's ****ing ludicrous that this particular case is still going on.

Any emergency worker CANNOT be worried about potential repercussions when carrying out their line of duty. Their jobs are hard enough as it is.

Tom

The car was being driven at 12 mph towards the firearms officer.

I totally agree that emergency operatives must make split second decisions. Never disputed this. The whole case is tragic. But you know that the conclusion would have not been the same had Kaba been white.

 

[tomw24]

Tom

The car was being driven at 12 mph towards the firearms officer.

I totally agree that emergency operatives must make split second decisions. Never disputed this. The whole case is tragic. But you know that the conclusion would have not been the same had Kaba been white.

And you know that how? It is irrelevant how fast or slow the car was going. By not surrendering the officers had no idea what was going through Kaba's mind. He could have been planning to put his foot down (if I was to make a guess, probably the most likely outcome if he hadn't been shot).

 

[LincolnSaint]

Tom

The car was being driven at 12 mph towards the firearms officer.

I totally agree that emergency operatives must make split second decisions. Never disputed this. The whole case is tragic. But you know that the conclusion would have not been the same had Kaba been white.

Are you up for me driving a 1.2 tonne machine at you at 12 MPH?

Why are you linking this to race? If race was a factor then this would have been argued by the prosecution no?

Finally, what would you have done in that situation? The most vocal in taking an anti police line never seem to want to answer that question, and you've ignored it in several messages.

I'm not having a pop at you here. I think you're very very wrong however most of the anti police when asked this on twitter just block and move on. I like to think this board is a little bit more interpersonal than just strangers arguing on social media. I'd genuinely like to know from a fairly hard left perspective what you would do.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

Not sure what exactly you're referring to but I'd say his views are clearly not to be taken seriously. The post saying America poses a threat to the free world and we should work more closely with China in response was a classic.

I agree that most of his posts are those of a fantasist but those posts are interspersed with some high offensive comments. He doesn't even try to hide his hatred of Israel and his disdain for the US is plain to see. Why he is not accused of racism in the way that is freely dished out to others is strange to say the least.

But my post yesterday referred to the comment below. To give it context, Thumwood posted it just 3 days after Hamas had slaughtered 1200 jews in the most horrific way imaginable. If that wasn't bad enough, we have a poster on this board who has Israeli relatives living in Israel. His wife is an Israeli. He (St Jerome) posted after October 7th that he was nervous about taking his kids to their Jewish school. He told his kids to hide who they are and the school they go to. In this ****ing country.

After St Jerome told us of his worries for his family on October 9th, Thumwood posted this on the 10th in answer to a comment by Osvaldorama;

Osvaldorama said:
These Israeli civilians did not deserve this act of atrocity and many people are trying to justify it. It’s sickening

The phrase "Israeli civilians" keeps on being banded around this thread. Is there really such a thing ? All Israeli's are obliged to serve in the military at some point in their lives and I believe that there is in excess of 300,000 reservists. Israel is a martial society and I feel it is incorrect not to stress that any notion of "civilians" cannot be used in the same context as other Western countries.

#41204
Ian Thumwood, Oct 10, 2023

It's quite clear that what Thumwood is suggesting is that all Israeli's are viable targets as most are reservists and "are obliged to serve in the military at some point in their lives" and are not civilians in the usual context. Remember, he posted this after St Jerome told us of his concerns for his children. To St Jerome's great credit he took a conciliatory approach to the post, politely pointing out Thumwood's error. After disappearing for a few days he reappeared as if nothing had happened. No apology, nothing.

What he was suggesting can't be undone, in my eyes he will always be connected to that comment.

I don't need to be conciliatory towards Thumwood, his views are disgusting and he has some neck to comment on the behaviour of others on this board.

 

[SAINTOSPREY]

Tom

The car was being driven at 12 mph towards the firearms officer.

I totally agree that emergency operatives must make split second decisions. Never disputed this. The whole case is tragic. But you know that the conclusion would have not been the same had Kaba been white.

You aren't qualified to make that judgement and nor are we.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I think it is only right that any case of someone being shot by a police officer is properly investigated, but this is a bit like the days when paramedics were getting sued for performing CPR. In the heat of the moment, an officer has to make a split second decision about how to deal with people actively putting others in danger to avoid arrest. I think at the point you start using a car to batter your way through officers you are making yourself a valid target. Just turn off the engine and wait. Better than dying.

FWIW I don't think this has anything at all to do with race. Personally though, whenever I have had to have dealings with the police I have found that my colour did pose an issue with casual racism, but this isn't the case here.

Due to my personal experience I have a low opinion of the police in general; I complained to the Police that my neighbours said some racist things caught on my cameras and one of their 'guests' urinated on our wall saying "it's ok its a Paki house and I was told that maybe I should put a larger fence between us, whilst he went and had a 30 mins coffee with them in the garden, I therefore have a relatively low opinion of the Police I have dealt with. On the other hand though, they do a job I just couldn't - they take **** from all sorts and literally put their lives on the line, so I don't judge the whole Police force by my local guy who even made snide comments about my Merc up the drive etc. I complained but heard nothing at all back, which was the worst part. Getting back onto the topic, if anyone white, black, yellow, orange drove a car at me and if I was a firearms officer, I would in the moment protect myself and also what he could do if he got past me and carried on.

IMO no way should this have gone to court, though agreed an inquiry to what happened should go ahead. If only to learn from what to do next time.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

You aren't qualified to make that judgement and nor are we.

Osprey

You see a good proportion of the incident on the BBC. The shooting itself has been edited out . Clearly Kaba was trying to avoid arrest but i am guessing that the officers failed to restrict tge movement of the car by allowing him to pull out. He then appears to be wedged between another car and was unable to force his way out.

I would guess that the GM charge relates to Kaba's car being allowed to manoeuver out. Had be been blocked in properly, Kaba could not gave driven the car out.

The Met believes the officers reacted correctly and the court believes the same. For consistency , you hope the GM finds the same.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

You aren't qualified to make that judgement and nor are we.

Osprey

You see a good proportion of the incident on the BBC. The shooting itself has been edited out . Clearly Kaba was trying to avoid arrest but i am guessing that the officers failed to restrict tge movement of the car by allowing him to pull out. He then appears to be wedged between another car and was unable to force his way out.

I would guess that the GM charge relates to Kaba's car being allowed to manoeuver out. Had be been blocked in properly, Kaba could not gave driven the car out.

The Met believes the officers reacted correctly and the court belueves

 

[Ian Thumwood]

No 7

I am sorry to hear about your experiences. The clip in the BBC site is inconclusive but it does not appear to show the car being driven directly at anyone. The car is wedged between another and incapacitated when the shots were fired . It looks like the firearms officer then raced around the front of the car before firing. Without the context, the clip looks bad.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

No 7

I am sorry to hear about your experiences. The clip in the BBC site is inconclusive but it does not appear to show the car being driven directly at anyone. The car is wedged between another and incapacitated when the shots were fired . It looks like the firearms officer then raced around the front of the car before firing. Without the context, the clip looks bad.

“Without the context” is kind of the point. As is “it looks like”.

Ian, come on…

 

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The extra context is this was a car marked dangerous and likely armed. The policeman didn’t know it but Kaba had shot someone in a club that week.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

You see a good proportion of the incident on the BBC. The shooting itself has been edited out . Clearly Kaba was trying to avoid arrest but i am guessing that the officers failed to restrict tge movement of the car by allowing him to pull out. He then appears to be wedged between another car and was unable to force his way out.

I would guess that the GM charge relates to Kaba's car being allowed to manoeuver out. Had be been blocked in properly, Kaba could not gave driven the car out.

The Met believes the officers reacted correctly and the court belueves

How can you want to cut ties with America because of Trump - despite the obvious damage this would do to us - but be happy to align with a state known to be murderous, authoritarian and generally far more evil than Trump on his worst day?

You also condemn Israel's actions in Gaza as genocide

“Without the context” is kind of the point. As is “it looks like”.

Ian, come on…

Laces

You can judge for yourself from the BBC clip. The car was stuck and could not move when Kaba was shot.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

How can you want to cut ties with America because of Trump - despite the obvious damage this would do to us - but be happy to align with a state known to be murderous, authoritarian and generally far more evil than Trump on his worst day?

You also condemn Israel's actions in Gaza as genocide and say we should show support for their opponents but want closer relations with a Chinese state whose treatment of the Uyghurs likely involves crimes against humanity including genocide, forced sterilisation, torture and sexual abuse.

None of this is consistent or makes any sense.

Puck

There are serious human rights issues un China and not just with the Uyghurs. You could also mention Fulong Gong too.

There has been alot in the news lately with Ursula Van Der Leyen seeking closer economic ties for the EU with bith India a d China. We should be building closer ties with Europe who are our nearest allies. America is proving itself to be less reliable. I just feel that we should follow the lead of the EU.....especially when China will soon exceed the US as an economic superpower.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

You see a good proportion of the incident on the BBC. The shooting itself has been edited out . Clearly Kaba was trying to avoid arrest but i am guessing that the officers failed to restrict tge movement of the car by allowing him to pull out. He then appears to be wedged between another car and was unable to force his way out.

I would guess that the GM charge relates to Kaba's car being allowed to manoeuver out. Had be been blocked in properly, Kaba could not gave driven the car out.

The Met believes the officers reacted correctly and the court belueves



Laces

You can judge for yourself from the BBC clip. The car was stuck and could not move when Kaba was shot.

Ian, you’re saying yourself that “you’re guessing”. I’m going with the decision given by the jury who weren’t guessing, and had all the context.

 

[SAINTOSPREY]

Ian, If ever I was stupid enough to get involved in a court case I would not want you in my 12 good and true jurors.