Off Topic Politics Thread

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Sure, it's entirely possible he didn't express himself as clearly as he should have. It's also very likely there have been private discussions and commitments made that he knows about and we don't.


Oh please. You're better than this.

I totally agree that focussing on whether someone has said 'thank you' is ridiculous.

With regard to your first point - I have no problem saying when I think Trump/Vance have done something right (I have done on countless occasions here) but I will also call out hypocrisy where I see it. "He didn't express himself as clearly as he should have" - why not apply that to someone speaking in his third language and under huge pressure, rather than someone who is speaking under no pressure to the very friendly Hannity at Fox. He should be much, much better than that.

 

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No. I can understand people not liking Vance but he's well aware of the British and French involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But there's clearly no point discussing this with you. Your hatred and rage towards Trump and everyone associated with him ooze from every post you make and it's very clear to me that anything any of them say will be interpreted by you to have the worst possible meaning.

Hmm… you accept Vance’s word very easily and yet what Starmer says and does not so much. Your own bias…

 

[Puck]

I totally agree that focussing on whether someone has said 'thank you' is ridiculous.

With regard to your first point - I have no problem saying when I think Trump/Vance have done something right (I have done on countless occasions here) but I will also call out hypocrisy where I see it. "He didn't express himself as clearly as he should have" - why not apply that to someone speaking in his third language and under huge pressure, rather than someone who is speaking under no pressure to the very friendly Hannity at Fox. He should be much, much better than that.

The 'thank you' thing is clearly symbolic of the general attitude on display, which is what their dispute is really about. Trump and co think Zelensky feels he's entitled to support and they don't agree.

People may not like it but the reality is Zelensky needs America. So he needs to play the game and do what's necessary for his country. It's similar to in "normal" life. If you're running a business and need a loan to keep things going and when you go to see the bank manager (or whoever) he acts like a prick you don't argue with him, especially not in public. You need him more than he needs you so you suck it up. My old boss used to say that sometimes in business you have to learn to eat **** and like the taste. I'm afraid the same applies here.

Which is where your comparison to the UK and France supporting the US in Iraq etc collapses. Aside from the fact those aren't ongoing situations, our help was welcome and helpful to the Americans but they didn't need us. Ukraine needs American support. So does the UK for that matter.

 

[Puck]

Hmm… you accept Vance’s word very easily and yet what Starmer says and does not so much. Your own bias…

No, I look at the specifics of the situation and decide what seems most likely. The idea that JD Vance doesn't know the UK and France have supported America militarily in the last 20 years is not credible to me. As for Starmer, we have a situation where the British Prime Minister is saying one thing and the British Ambassador to the USA is publicly saying something different. I think that's interesting.

 

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No, I look at the specifics of the situation and decide what seems most likely. The idea that JD Vance doesn't know the UK and France have supported America militarily in the last 20 years is not credible to me. As for Starmer, we have a situation where the British Prime Minister is saying one thing and the British Ambassador to the USA is publicly saying something different. I think that's interesting.

So, you don’t think Vance says this for his American audience? Only two nations have volunteers feet in the ground.
But the absolute crux is: Vance said something which a lot of people are offended by. In the same situation he is demanding an apology from Zelensky. But in his own case he accuses the people he has offended of being absurd.

Hypocrisy.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

The 'thank you' thing is clearly symbolic of the general attitude on display, which is what their dispute is really about. Trump and co think Zelensky feels he's entitled to support and they don't agree.

People may not like it but the reality is Zelensky needs America. So he needs to play the game and do what's necessary for his country. It's similar to in "normal" life. If you're running a business and need a loan to keep things going and when you go to see the bank manager (or whoever) he acts like a prick you don't argue with him, especially not in public. You need him more than he needs you so you suck it up. My old boss used to say that sometimes in business you have to learn to eat **** and like the taste. I'm afraid the same applies here.

Which is where your comparison to the UK and France supporting the US in Iraq etc collapses. Aside from the fact those aren't ongoing situations, our help was welcome and helpful to the Americans but they didn't need us. Ukraine needs American support. So does the UK for that matter.

I agree regarding Zelenskyy needing to play the game. It's a sad state of affairs.

On your last point, Article 5 of NATO has only been activated once, and that was by the Americans following 9/11. All their allies heeded the call without question. Weasels like Vance would do well to remember that.

 

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I agree regarding Zelenskyy needing to play the game. It's a sad state of affairs.

On your last point, Article 5 of NATO has only been activated once, and that was by the Americans following 9/11. All their allies heeded the call without question. Weasels like Vance would do well to remember that.

And Puck is very wrong. The US did need their allies. The optics of the USA vs the Arab World would have been horrendous. And we soaked it up for them and are paying for that still.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

And Puck is very wrong. The US did need their allies. The optics of the USA vs the Arab World would have been horrendous. And we soaked it up for them and are paying for that still.

Agreed.

 

[saintrichie123]

Vance is a turd……Trump is an orange one.
Why do people believe the nonsense they are spouting.

 

[Puck]

I'm not wrong at all. After 9/11 America didn't NEED allies. They had the military power to fight without us.

The PR side of things is slightly different and yes, as I said, it helped America to have allies alongside them. But the Afghanistan war in particular was widely seen as a legitimate form of self-defence and America could (and I suspect would) have gone ahead even without any support.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I'm not wrong at all. After 9/11 America didn't NEED allies. They had the military power to fight without us.

The PR side of things is slightly different and yes, as I said, it helped America to have allies alongside them. But the Afghanistan war in particular was widely seen as a legitimate form of self-defence and America could (and I suspect would) have gone ahead even without any support.

So why invoke Article 5? It doesn’t matter if it’s PR or military, they needed support. Which they got unquestioningly. Because supporting your allies is generally a good idea…

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Sort of a pointless discussion though. The point is, Vance said something arrogantly and unthinkingly (there’s a surprise), got called out on it, then tried a very flimsy backtrack of “not those ones, the imaginary ones”. Now of course he’s going to say that, but you don’t have to believe him.

 

[Puck]

So why invoke Article 5? It doesn’t matter if it’s PR or military, they needed support. Which they got unquestioningly. Because supporting your allies is generally a good idea…

Because having support is better than not having it? That's not the same thing as needing it. There are bits of furniture in my house that are quite heavy. I can move them around by myself if I need to but I normally ask someone to help me do it because that's easier.

I agree this is a pointless discussion. I disagree on Vance. That's also a pointless discussion.

 

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[StJabbo1]

Perhaps because the UK and France are the only two countries that have committed to putting troops in a peacekeeping force, so there's literally nobody else he could have been referring to. He said something stupid, he got called out on it, and now he's wheeling out some feeble excuse to backtrack. The man is an arse.

Highly fancied in the dirtbox of the year stakes but it's an extreme competitive field this year with the US expected to take the top ten places.

 

[Archers Road]

We have the greatest economy in history, maybe in all the history of the world, it’s doing so great, people can’t believe how great it is…

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[SAINTOSPREY]

Recently there were major fires in Florida, a lot were extinguished by volunteer Mexicans, not much sign of any gratitude for that...

 

[saintrichie123]

Zelenskyy on Twitter:

I would like to reiterate Ukraine’s commitment to peace.

None of us wants an endless war. Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer. Nobody wants peace more than Ukrainians. My team and I stand ready to work under President Trump’s strong leadership to get a peace that lasts.

We are ready to work fast to end the war, and the first stages could be the release of prisoners and truce in the sky — ban on missiles, long-ranged drones, bombs on energy and other civilian infrastructure — and truce in the sea immediately, if Russia will do the same. Then we want to move very fast through all next stages and to work with the US to agree a strong final deal.

We do really value how much America has done to help Ukraine maintain its sovereignty and independence. And we remember the moment when things changed when President Trump provided Ukraine with Javelins. We are grateful for this.

Our meeting in Washington, at the White House on Friday, did not go the way it was supposed to be. It is regrettable that it happened this way. It is time to make things right. We would like future cooperation and communication to be constructive.

Regarding the agreement on minerals and security, Ukraine is ready to sign it in any time and in any convenient format. We see this agreement as a step toward greater security and solid security guarantees, and I truly hope it will work effectively.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Zelenskyy on Twitter:

I would like to reiterate Ukraine’s commitment to peace.

None of us wants an endless war. Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer. Nobody wants peace more than Ukrainians. My team and I stand ready to work under President Trump’s strong leadership to get a peace that lasts.

We are ready to work fast to end the war, and the first stages could be the release of prisoners and truce in the sky — ban on missiles, long-ranged drones, bombs on energy and other civilian infrastructure — and truce in the sea immediately, if Russia will do the same. Then we want to move very fast through all next stages and to work with the US to agree a strong final deal.

We do really value how much America has done to help Ukraine maintain its sovereignty and independence. And we remember the moment when things changed when President Trump provided Ukraine with Javelins. We are grateful for this.

Our meeting in Washington, at the White House on Friday, did not go the way it was supposed to be. It is regrettable that it happened this way. It is time to make things right. We would like future cooperation and communication to be constructive.

Regarding the agreement on minerals and security, Ukraine is ready to sign it in any time and in any convenient format. We see this agreement as a step toward greater security and solid security guarantees, and I truly hope it will work effectively.

Good step forwards.

Over to you, Donald.


And then to Vlad…

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

If they now say “he needs to apologise first” I might fly over there and slap them both.