Off Topic Politics Thread

[Osvaldorama]

Starmer is the last person who I would consider as gaslighting an issue. I think he is his own person and will use measures to resolve situation on the streets. As for immigration, this issue has been highlighted by the right-wing media as a serious issue to divert attention from the economic structural upheavel in the 1970s and 1980s that has not really been resolved. Retail Parks do not replace the income that people earned when working in the manufacturing industry. For me, widening our productive industries and lessening the effects of Brexit for existing ones, eg suppliers of equipment for yachts, has been badly affected.

Starmer IS gaslighting. Immigration really is a big issue to many millions of people. It has exacerbated NHS wait times, the housing crisis and the feeling of being unsafe on our streets. You cant add millions of people (many undocumented) into the country and then pretend like nothing has changed.

Radical Islam is also a really big issue to many people. The majority of Muslims are wonderful people, but there is a hardcore element, similar to the far right, that are extremely dangerous. Unfortunately they have been allowed to behave however they like. (Nazi salutes, anti-Jewish chants, burning poppies, singing death to the UK, from the river to the sea, etc etc). It never gets discussed in the mainstream media and they rarely get punished. Why is there such a difference in the way protests are policed?

All of these things and more have to be taken into account to explain the craziness of the last few weeks. Starmer isn’t acknowledging any of this backdrop.

As people are watching the far right thugs be (correctly) clamped down on hard, many millions are asking “well why weren’t the police acting in a similar way when Nazi salutes were shown at the Palestine rallies? Or when extremists were chanting UK troops burn in hell” etc. etc. etc.”

He is gaslighting because he is not addressing any of these things and contrary to what a few on here seem to believe, most people aren’t stupid.

 

[Saintjoey]

Not sure what to make of the Walz VP pick. I can understand not going with Shapiro due to the Democrat voters that have strong feelings about Israel-Gaza

But I’d have thought they would want to shore up a swing state. Or is the logic now that with current polarisation the VP pick is unlikely to do that. I’m tempted to go and look at past VPs on both sides in recent elections

From memory :

Biden - solid blue state
Palin - solid red state
Ryan - swing state that he didn’t help turn red
Pence - solid red state
Kaine - blue state that can get close but isn’t usually a swing state
Harris - very solid blue state

So at least since 2008 bringing a state with you hasn’t been a factor. At the top or bottom of the ticket in most cases

Of all the candidates, Shapiro had been the most overtly critical of Israel of any of them. The campaign against him from the left of the party can only be defined as antisemitic when none of the other candidates faced similar, despite being less critical of Israel.
She’s gone with the safe choice to try to unite the left and centre of the party but I’m not sure it’ll work…

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

Your logic is flawed. How does Starmer sending racist ****s to prison send a signal to non-whites that the whole of the UK hates them?

The UK hates fascism, always has done. These thugs being stirred up by Yaxley-Lennon from his holiday home in Cyprus are a tiny, tiny minority of the British people. We don’t hate immigrants, we welcome them, because the vast majority of them work hard doing necessary jobs and pay taxes into the economy.

The other side of the coin is to ask why it is that so many asylum seekers come to Britain from their own countries. Fleeing war and tyranny, or famine and the effects of climate change, for the most part. If we don’t want a constant flow of people across the planet we have to do more to address the reasons for the migration.

I know you don’t care about any of that, because the ****s whose **** you parrot on here don’t care about it. All they want to do is stir up division and hatred between people who have far more in common than the things that divide them.

I’m done with trying to reason with you now. I have to keep reading your posts because of my role as moderator, but I won’t bother replying any more, you’re a lost cause.

You just made me see ignored posts.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

You just made me see ignored posts.

Sorry

 

[Gregm1988]

Of all the candidates, Shapiro had been the most overtly critical of Israel of any of them. The campaign against him from the left of the party can only be defined as antisemitic when none of the other candidates faced similar, despite being less critical of Israel.
She’s gone with the safe choice to try to unite the left and centre of the party but I’m not sure it’ll work…

It’s about optics. He volunteered for the IDF in his youth and described pro-Palestine protests at colleges as like the KKK. The former is bad optics and the latter is just not going to fly. Those people protesting were already wavering on voting Biden and unlikely to do so. Foolishly in my opinion as Trump will be worse for Palestine than Biden would have been or Harris would be. But as we saw in our election so people have got so focused on this issue that is seems they prepared to sabotage there own interests as some form of protest

I’m not convinced the critiques against him are anti semitic. I am aware the left historically has a problem with anti semitism. But there isn’t really a proper left in America. Especially not in a “pro labour movement” sense. Historically it never has existed. No history of socialism (or Toryism for that matter) which is one of the things that makes them so different to us

It’s one of those tricky things - criticise someone who is Jewish and some people will always shout “anti semtism”. Israel as a nation rely on this tactic a lot as well. But I will admit I am not aware of the details. A cursory read did not suggest he had the most critical stance towards Israel. And indeed his history is of someone with a lot of support for them - which even if he has changed is always going to be unhelpful

 

[Saintjoey]

It’s about optics. He volunteered for the IDF in his youth and described pro-Palestine protests at colleges as like the KKK. The former is bad optics and the latter is just not going to fly. Those people protesting were already wavering on voting Biden and unlikely to do so. Foolishly in my opinion as Trump will be worse for Palestine than Biden would have been or Harris would be. But as we saw in our election so people have got so focused on this issue that is seems they prepared to sabotage there own interests as some form of protest

I’m not convinced the critiques against him are anti semitic. I am aware the left historically has a problem with anti semitism. But there isn’t really a proper left in America. Especially not in a “pro labour movement” sense. Historically it never has existed. No history of socialism (or Toryism for that matter) which is one of the things that makes them so different to us

It’s one of those tricky things - criticise someone who is Jewish and some people will always shout “anti semtism”. Israel as a nation rely on this tactic a lot as well. But I will admit I am not aware of the details. A cursory read did not suggest he had the most critical stance towards Israel. And indeed his history is of someone with a lot of support for them - which even if he has changed is always going to be unhelpful

He didn’t volunteer for the IDF and was never close to any sort of fighting. That was part of the totally ridiculous smear campaign against him.

I think it’s very simple and doesn’t need over complicating. Each of the candidates had almost identical views on Israel. Shapiro was, if anything, the most outspoken. The progressive wing launched a smear campaign against one candidate only. It’s not rocket science.

In terms of specific criticism, he called Netanyahu “one of the worst leaders of all time.” Way above and beyond what any of the other VP candidates said. Did you miss that in your cursory glance?!

 

[SaintinNZ]

Confirmation bias is incredible. Long wait times in the NHS, must be immigration because it cant have anything to do with an American promoted, government led effort to underfund and cripple a free (taxpayer funded) health service, nor does the fact that huge number of immigrants work in there have any relevance. Immigrants take our jobs but that's nothing to do with crippling shortages of skills or a population that is unwilling to do certain roles and employers being unable to find people to work.

People with extreme views will always find ways to make themselves right by ignoring many facets of every scenario and reducing it to a single issue.

 

[Saintjoey]

By the way, I’m not suggesting the decision not to choose him is in any way antisemitic. I’m referring to the campaign launched against him from people on the left of the party.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

Confirmation bias is incredible. Long wait times in the NHS, must be immigration because it cant have anything to do with an American promoted, government led effort to underfund and cripple a free (taxpayer funded) health service, nor does the fact that huge number of immigrants work in there have any relevance. Immigrants take our jobs but that's nothing to do with crippling shortages of skills or a population that is unwilling to do certain roles and employers being unable to find people to work.

People with extreme views will always find ways to make themselves right by ignoring many facets of every scenario and reducing it to a single issue.

Take the immigrants out of the country and the health system collapses, instantly.

 

[Saintjoey]

Take the immigrants out of the country and the health system collapses, instantly.

Agreed.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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[ChilcoSaint]

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[Gregm1988]

By the way, I’m not suggesting the decision not to choose him is in any way antisemitic. I’m referring to the campaign launched against him from people on the left of the party.

If a candidate for VP fosters enough animosity that a campaign is launched by a wing of the party then he should only have been picked if they thought the people he won over would be greater than those he could potentially lose. It would seem like the decision was not in his favour there. Whether or not the campaign was anti semitic is a separate topic that I’m not sure is going to be legislated in a major way. What exactly are the republicans going to do? Make a big deal about it? When they have white supremacists and neo Nazis in the MAGA base?

He’s a relatively new governor and potentially only won due to a uniquely bad Trumpian candidate. His time might well come when things aren’t as hot in the Middle East but there is a real chance that him being Jewish is too much for America as a whole. It is a far more Christian country than I think many people in this country realise. The fact that Trump even needs to pretend to be religious and did that bible stunt should tell people that.

I believe Walz is standing down as governor whereas Shapiro is in his first term. I believe they were the final two. I’m intrigued as to why Kelly wasn’t an option. I’d have been fascinated to see how Trump would try and denigrate and insult an actual astronaut.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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[Gregm1988]

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“Huh they can hit us”

It’s a little bit like the stories of people remanded in custody and not given bail having been arrested for this. They must have thought nothing was going to happen or they would be treated leniently. I don’t know why

 

[Osvaldorama]

Confirmation bias is incredible. Long wait times in the NHS, must be immigration because it cant have anything to do with an American promoted, government led effort to underfund and cripple a free (taxpayer funded) health service, nor does the fact that huge number of immigrants work in there have any relevance. Immigrants take our jobs but that's nothing to do with crippling shortages of skills or a population that is unwilling to do certain roles and employers being unable to find people to work.

People with extreme views will always find ways to make themselves right by ignoring many facets of every scenario and reducing it to a single issue.

I know this is very hard to believe.. but two things can be true at once

The NHS is run horribly (deliberately? That’s another matter you big conspiracy theorist)

But also it is stretched to breaking point by the sheer volume of people. (Many of which don’t even live here and come as health tourists. But that’s a whole different matter again)

I don’t see how people are ignoring this fact. If you drop 10 million people into a small island in a short period of time… stuff is going to change. Why is this an extreme view? It’s just common sense

 

[Saintjoey]

If a candidate for VP fosters enough animosity that a campaign is launched by a wing of the party then he should only have been picked if they thought the people he won over would be greater than those he could potentially lose. It would seem like the decision was not in his favour there. Whether or not the campaign was anti semitic is a separate topic that I’m not sure is going to be legislated in a major way. What exactly are the republicans going to do? Make a big deal about it? When they have white supremacists and neo Nazis in the MAGA base?

He’s a relatively new governor and potentially only won due to a uniquely bad Trumpian candidate. His time might well come when things aren’t as hot in the Middle East but there is a real chance that him being Jewish is too much for America as a whole. It is a far more Christian country than I think many people in this country realise. The fact that Trump even needs to pretend to be religious and did that bible stunt should tell people that.

I believe Walz is standing down as governor whereas Shapiro is in his first term. I believe they were the final two. I’m intrigued as to why Kelly wasn’t an option. I’d have been fascinated to see how Trump would try and denigrate and insult an actual astronaut.

You have to understand that saying he might be “too jewish” in such a blasé way is just a terrible thing to say aloud.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Take the immigrants out of the country and the health system collapses, instantly.

This sort of shallow post really annoys me.

This sort of thing is trying to make light of the genuine protestors feelings. Of course people value immigration and a a shared community.

It’s the criminals and those preaching hate that people want to see removed. It’s the illegal, undocumented people that we are all paying for that are the issue.

You are trying to regress the argument to a shallow “they’re thick as ****, they want all immigrants gone” which just isn’t the case in 99% of cases. You’re doing exactly what Starmer is doing

 

[ChilcoSaint]

This sort of shallow post really annoys me.

This sort of thing is trying to make light of the genuine protestors feelings. Of course people value immigration and a a shared community.

It’s the criminals and those preaching hate that people want to see removed. It’s the illegal, undocumented people that we are all paying for that are the issue.

You are trying to regress the argument to a shallow “they’re thick as ****, they want all immigrants gone” which just isn’t the case in 99% of cases. You’re doing exactly what Starmer is doing

Are you calling for the deportation of white racist rioters now Os?
Make your ****ing mind up man!

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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