Off Topic Politics Thread

[Schad]

Not to marginalise your lived experience, but there is a distinct psychological difference between farmers - who tend to live more isolated lives - and your typical inner-city Dave. You can't judge them the same way at all as a city Dave has to live alongside the immigrant.

All I am picking up from you is that you seem to think ordinary people who worry about immigration are never going to change and not worth talking to. I have seen Southampton change drastically during my lifetime - but if I had lived in a nice suburb I wouldn't have noticed. There is a real disconnect between all my leftie friends (who are all middle class) and myself in the way we think about the working classes. I seem to have a lot more understanding of their viewpoints, where they talk way too much about people "who don't know what is good for them". Ok, lords and masters, we better cede the vote to your fine selves so you can save us!

Heh, I almost certainly qualify as working class, as do most of the people I've maintained contact with over the years...I'm a long time out of my ivory tower. I've had the exact same conversation with someone I work with about his fears about mass immigration a minimum of 500 times over the past decade I have been at my job. I can mollify him for a day, or a week even. But no, I cannot change his mind. Because what drives it is not the particulars of the numbers of immigrants or a careful cost/benefit analysis, it's a visceral fear that things are changing. This despite the fact that his daughter-in-law was born in China, and the house he lives in with them was purchased by her family ("that's different", apparently). He has a university degree and is hardly incurious, but that gnawing at the back of head doesn't go away.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I grew up in a poor area with a lot of Daves, too. When I was in my late teens, I worked at a corner shop that was frequented by a lot of the farmers in the area. Do you know what one of the favourite grumbles for many of the farmers was? That the Dutch had come in and taken all the best farmland. This was around 2001-2003...the Dutch have been here since the immediate aftermath of WWII. Much of the land the Dutch received had been fallow/hayfield for more than a century because none of the locals could get yields out of the dykeland soil, and consequently they sold it to the government for nothing. The grandchildren of the original Dutch refugees were adults and they still hadn't made peace with it.

What drives change, ultimately, is not that the Daves change, it's that the children of the Daves don't give a damn about it. They'll be petrified about something (or someone) else, but they'll have grown up with the Indian or Polish or Jamaican family down the road and won't consider them interlopers. The only people who grumbled about the Dutch were the old guys whose fathers had been viscerally angry about the Dutch. And for anyone younger than 70, the Dutch were just as much a part of the place as anyone else. But the Daves never accepted that.

Hmm…the other problem that’s missing here is that Dutch Dave is culturally far closer to Canadave, than Afghan Dave is to Dave from Dangenham. Dutch Dave is far better equipped to integrate with Canadave’s community than Afghan Dave is with DagDave.

It’s not racist or scary to point that out, it’s just a reality of migration from culturally divergent (and moreover, religiously divergent and strict) societies into largely liberal countries. That’s the part that’s seemingly so difficult to positively impact upon, and the part that threatens Dagenham Dave.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I had a conversation with an elderly Irish guy a few weeks ago. He asked if I'd ever been to the Republic, and when I said I'd lived there for a few years in the 60s/70s he then said 'don't bother going back now. It's feckin ruined. No Irish people left now, it's all immigrants'

I asked him how long he'd been living in England, and he said about 50 years now...he didn't remotely see the irony. He was also typically choosy about who the 'right' immigrants were and why they were there. When I mentioned that my grandmother was a black immigrant from South Africa who'd married an Englishman in 1931, he said (and I quote exactly) 'oh that's fine, we hardly had any blacks in these islands back then so your gran wouldn't have rocked the apple cart'

I suppose the lack of visibility of immigrants to him back in Ireland and indeed the UK in the 60s meant that wasn't an issue for him at the time, it was when they started 'taking over' that it became a problem. Seems to be a fairly common belief amongst such people that there is a correct number of immigrants as a percentage, and when that point is seemingly surpassed, they become an issue. He didn't say what % is OK but I'm surmising that as soon as there are more than a visible handful in a community, it's too many. Let's say just enough to run the local takeaways and maybe a few doctors and nurses at the hospital.

I'd never convince him that immigration can bring benefits, and I didn't bother trying.

I did see the fear in him though at the thought that his country and his adopted country were ruined, and that he felt he was losing his place in the hierarchy now that he couldn't openly criticise other races. To think that your country is being taken away from you and that you matter less than the immigrants must be scary to a certain subset of the population even though it doesn't excuse their racism

 

[Osvaldorama]

Heh, I almost certainly qualify as working class, as do most of the people I've maintained contact with over the years...I'm a long time out of my ivory tower. I've had the exact same conversation with someone I work with about his fears about mass immigration a minimum of 500 times over the past decade I have been at my job. I can mollify him for a day, or a week even. But no, I cannot change his mind. Because what drives it is not the particulars of the numbers of immigrants or a careful cost/benefit analysis, it's a visceral fear that things are changing. This despite the fact that his daughter-in-law was born in China, and the house he lives in with them was purchased by her family ("that's different", apparently). He has a university degree and is hardly incurious, but that gnawing at the back of head doesn't go away.

That’s because you’re quite literally 100% wrong. The country is changing faster than it ever has. All the data shows immigration numbers are at record highs.

“Net migration has been unusually high in the past two years. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimates that net migration to the UK was 745,000 in 2022, up from 184,000 in 2019 before the pandemic (ONS, November 2023).”

I hate your mindset and your attitude, genuinely.

Your narcissistic progressiveness is everything that is wrong with England right now.

The same types that think Nike changing the England flag to the bisexual flag colours doesn’t matter.

You woke progressives think national pride isn’t important, identity doesn’t matter. Everything is malleable and society is one homogenous blob.

English? Doesn’t matter.
Male or female? Doesn’t matter. There’s a million genders anyway.

Bow down to the globohomo corporations so they can charge extortionate prices for goods produced in a sweatshop whilst virtue signalling about how much they care about LBGT rights and ethnic minorities.

But you’re wrong. Pride in yourself and your country is a good thing. It’s good to be proud of who you are and lift your countrymen up.

And it’s good to enforce sensible border policies and to try and create the sort of country that people want to come to.

 

[Schad]

Hmm…the other problem that’s missing here is that Dutch Dave is culturally far closer to Canadave, than Afghan Dave is to Dave from Dangenham. Dutch Dave is far better equipped to integrate with Canadave’s community than Afghan Dave is with DagDave.

It’s not racist or scary to point that out, it’s just a reality of migration from culturally divergent (and moreover, religiously divergent and strict) societies into largely liberal countries. That’s the part that’s seemingly so difficult to positively impact upon, and the part that threatens Dagenham Dave.

As viewed through a modern lens. Historically, the belief that a European Dave will integrate better isn't true, though, particularly if that Dave wasn't an English-speaking Protestant. Entire political parties were founded on the belief that Catholics could not integrate, and 19th century Daves expressed such through the time-honoured technique of setting a lot of things on fire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_Riots_in_United_States_politics

Today, we'd say sure: the Dutch or French Dave is not that culturally dissimilar, but that's only because those battles are at generations of remove.

I'm iffy on the idea that Afghan Dave is less able to integrate into Canadian society than Czech or Latvia Dave or whatever, but I can say with plenty of experience that Afghan Dave's kids are going to be just as blandly Canadian, so it's a problem that sorts itself in pretty short order. I know a number of second-generation Canadians from strict backgrounds, and generally the biggest mark against them is that they party too much.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

As viewed through a modern lens. Historically, the belief that a European Dave will integrate better isn't true, though, particularly if that Dave wasn't an English-speaking Protestant. Entire political parties were founded on the belief that Catholics could not integrate, and 19th century Daves expressed such through the time-honoured technique of setting a lot of things on fire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_Riots_in_United_States_politics

Today, we'd say sure: the Dutch or French Dave is not that culturally dissimilar, but that's only because those battles are at generations of remove.

I'm iffy on the idea that Afghan Dave is less able to integrate into Canadian society than Czech or Latvia Dave or whatever, but I can say with plenty of experience that Afghan Dave's kids are going to be just as blandly Canadian, so it's a problem that sorts itself in pretty short order. I know a number of second-generation Canadians from strict backgrounds, and generally the biggest mark against them is that they party too much.

Integration is seen as the battleground though. The idea in the UK that immigrants don't integrate, and form foreign cultural enclaves is easily spread to those that want to hear that. Nobody wants to wait a generation or two for this to happen so it's seen as not happening.
Integration is a two way street though so work always needs to be done from both sides.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Integration is seen as the battleground though. The idea in the UK that immigrants don't integrate, and form foreign cultural enclaves is easily spread to those that want to hear that. Nobody wants to wait a generation or two for this to happen so it's seen as not happening.
Integration is a two way street though so work always needs to be done from both sides.

That is quite literally happening all across the country. These enclaves aren’t just an idea in someone’s head mate

 

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Integration is seen as the battleground though. The idea in the UK that immigrants don't integrate, and form foreign cultural enclaves is easily spread to those that want to hear that. Nobody wants to wait a generation or two for this to happen so it's seen as not happening.
Integration is a two way street though so work always needs to be done from both sides.

Sadly, these enclaves do very much exist.

Edit: wrote this before reading OS’s comment.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

That is quite literally happening all across the country.

There are areas like that, but whether they are still like that in say, 2 generations is the point. Nothing will happen overnight, but because integration is a very long and complex process, it's easy to see no changes happening and for people to assume none ever will.

Integration of people who come from places with religious government is trickier to manage than just cultural differences, so I think we have an integration problem with certain communities and no obvious solutions

 

[......loading......]

There are areas like that, but whether they are still like that in say, 2 generations is the point. Nothing will happen overnight, but because integration is a very long and complex process, it's easy to see no changes happening and for people to assume none ever will.

Integration of people who come from places with religious government is trickier to manage than just cultural differences, so I think we have an integration problem with certain communities and no obvious solutions

This is the heart of the issue. It is becoming really hard to say ‘we have an integration issue’ without having other aspersions thrown at you. We definitely do have one - as does all of Europe. There are two very powerful ideologies at loggerheads here, and ours mustn’t bend to accommodate things which are not acceptable to our value system.

 

[Schad]

Integration is seen as the battleground though. The idea in the UK that immigrants don't integrate, and form foreign cultural enclaves is easily spread to those that want to hear that. Nobody wants to wait a generation or two for this to happen so it's seen as not happening.
Integration is a two way street though so work always needs to be done from both sides.

Sure. But one of the easiest ways to ensure that people form cultural enclaves is to create an environment in which they're otherized by the population as a whole and need to seek out kinship groupings for support. And one of the easiest ways to ensure that they're otherized is by playing up the notion that, despite all the data to the contrary, the UK is experiencing some sort of massive wave of immigrants that is overwhelming and endangering the country.

Part of the problem with addressing Daves is that it needs to be done without validating that belief because i) it simply isn't true, and ii) "you're right but it's a GOOD thing" is an even tougher sell.

 

[StJabbo1]

Some real numbers. The fall in numbers will, no doubt, be claimed by the politicians as vindication for their policies. As ever nothing could be further from the truth.
"Net migration has been unusually high in the past two years. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimates that net migration to the UK was 745,000 in 2022, up from 184,000 in 2019 before the pandemic (ONS, November 2023). The ONS methods are experimental and provisional, but the basic picture—that net migration has increased sharply—is unlikely to change as the official data are revised."

High net migration figures have intensified debate over UK migration policy and the future outlook for migration. Politicians of both major parties have said that they think net migration is ‘too high’ and would like to see lower numbers. At the same time, ONS population projections assume that net migration will fall to 245,000 per year. The Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR) has applied the same assumption in its economic forecasts.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....igures-not-a-reliable-guide-to-future-trends/

 

[......loading......]

Sure. But one of the easiest ways to ensure that people form cultural enclaves is to create an environment in which they're otherized by the population as a whole and need to seek out kinship groupings for support. And one of the easiest ways to ensure that they're otherized is by playing up the notion that, despite all the data to the contrary, the UK is experiencing some sort of massive wave of immigrants that is overwhelming and endangering the country.

Part of the problem with addressing Daves is that it needs to be done without validating that belief because i) it simply isn't true, and ii) "you're right but it's a GOOD thing" is an even tougher sell.

I have a real issue with ii. This is an opinion and not a fact. It will be good for some and may be good for the economy, but the other impacts of large scale immigration are much harder to define.

i) is also not true. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...nges were also seen,from 1.8%, 990,000); both

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

This is the heart of the issue. It is becoming really hard to say ‘we have an integration issue’ without having other aspersions thrown at you. We definitely do have one - as does all of Europe. There are two very powerful ideologies at loggerheads here, and ours mustn’t bend to accommodate things which are not acceptable to our value system.

As an atheist, I always see problems with religious life being entwined with government. Just having church officials as part of our government rubs me up the wrong way, and there's never any real impact on my life.
Islam however doesn't seem to be compatible with our (western European) way of life though and brings with it a desire to import religious law into secular life. Sure its not all Muslims, but those that do are often in public roles within the community who have influence on the communities themselves and do not want to integrate. You can't change religious belief though, so therein lies the problem with trying to shoehorn an archaic belief structure into a modern democracy

 

[......loading......]

As an atheist, I always see problems with religious life being entwined with government. Just having church officials as part of our government rubs me up the wrong way, and there's never any real impact on my life.
Islam however doesn't seem to be compatible with our (western European) way of life though and brings with it a desire to import religious law into secular life. Sure its not all Muslims, but those that do are often in public roles within the community who have influence on the communities themselves and do not want to integrate. You can't change religious belief though, so therein lies the problem with trying to shoehorn an archaic belief structure into a modern democracy

Absolutely. My experience is that the misogyny is built into these cultures - as it was into ours - and we have a duty to address that rather than pretend it isn’t happening.

 

[StJabbo1]

Sure. But one of the easiest ways to ensure that people form cultural enclaves is to create an environment in which they're otherized by the population as a whole and need to seek out kinship groupings for support. And one of the easiest ways to ensure that they're otherized is by playing up the notion that, despite all the data to the contrary, the UK is experiencing some sort of massive wave of immigrants that is overwhelming and endangering the country.

Part of the problem with addressing Daves is that it needs to be done without validating that belief because i) it simply isn't true, and ii) "you're right but it's a GOOD thing" is an even tougher sell.

Have you seen the Brits in the George and Dragon Benidorm eating their all day full English? Proppa parody English abroad.

 

[......loading......]

Have you seen the Brits in the George and Dragon Benidorm eating their all day full English? Proppa parody English abroad.

Sometimes people can clash with the culture they move to, then?

 

[Schad]

Absolutely. My experience is that the misogyny is built into these cultures - as it was into ours - and we have a duty to address that rather than pretend it isn’t happening.

I do have to ask what is happening in the UK, and why it isn't happening here, then. Our Muslim population is about the same size as that of the UK by percentage, broadly drawn from the same diasporas, and polling has pretty consistently found that they're not particularly out of line culturally from the rest of the country, including plurality support for full LGBTQ rights (which exceeds supporters of the Conservative Party, heh), and weirdly they feel more Canadian than Canadians as a whole:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

 

[......loading......]

I do have to ask what is happening in the UK, and why it isn't happening here, then. Our Muslim population is about the same size as that of the UK by percentage, broadly drawn from the same diasporas, and polling has pretty consistently found that they're not particularly out of line culturally from the rest of the country, including plurality support for full LGBTQ rights (which exceeds supporters of the Conservative Party, heh), and weirdly they feel more Canadian than Canadians as a whole:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

Weird. I have taught hundreds of muslim children and they all tell the exact same story: homosexuality is bad, brother is treated differently to sister, western people are immoral.

And their husbands will be imported from Pakistan.

 

[StJabbo1]

Sometimes people can clash with the culture they move to, then?

Oh yes indeed. Knotted handkerchief headgear, string vests and sandals with socks to the fore.