Off Topic Politics Thread
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Haven't watched the interview yet, I'll give it a listen though.
Whether you agree with a persons opinion or not (what he's done in Ukraine is horrific) I think it's important to have freedom of speech.
So he may lie, a leader that lies? That's not exactly a rarity in this day and age I'm afraid. People talking about fascism, he may be a fascist - but currently the UK/US/Germany and other powerful "democratic" countries aren't much better. They're complicit in allowing Israel to carpet bomb Gaza. Terrorists living there or not, 11,000+ children have been murdered. Civilians are getting snipered for crossing the street to get water or exiting hospital. We have cut off aid to Palestine in their moment of absolute need.
Basically, Putin may very well be an evil nutter with no good intentions. But, currently, none of us are living in a country that is fighting for the good of people. It's all about money and power, out politicians don't care about us, they care about profit and power.
I believe I'm a good person, most of us are, but there aren't many good people who are leading us right now so let's not get all arsey about an interview with Putin when our own leaders supply weapons that murder thousands of children, privatise our water then fill it with sewage, and couldn't give a damn about us. It's divide and conquer.
I'm not sure if there's much point in this post but you guys arguing about who's good and bad are ridiculous
Whether you agree with a persons opinion or not (what he's done in Ukraine is horrific) I think it's important to have freedom of speech.
So he may lie, a leader that lies? That's not exactly a rarity in this day and age I'm afraid. People talking about fascism, he may be a fascist - but currently the UK/US/Germany and other powerful "democratic" countries aren't much better. They're complicit in allowing Israel to carpet bomb Gaza. Terrorists living there or not, 11,000+ children have been murdered. Civilians are getting snipered for crossing the street to get water or exiting hospital. We have cut off aid to Palestine in their moment of absolute need.
Basically, Putin may very well be an evil nutter with no good intentions. But, currently, none of us are living in a country that is fighting for the good of people. It's all about money and power, out politicians don't care about us, they care about profit and power.
I believe I'm a good person, most of us are, but there aren't many good people who are leading us right now so let's not get all arsey about an interview with Putin when our own leaders supply weapons that murder thousands of children, privatise our water then fill it with sewage, and couldn't give a damn about us. It's divide and conquer.
I'm not sure if there's much point in this post but you guys arguing about who's good and bad are ridiculous
We live in a country where you can argue who is good and who is bad. Where you are allowed to have the freedom of speech you said is important. Where we are allowed to vote and replace our leaders if we want to.
That is exactly why it is not ridiculous to have this argument. Because whatever the morality of international wars, whatever the imperialistic drives of each nation, whatever the brutal bottom line of multinational profit margins, we have to appreciate the nation we live in and the rights we have and the freedoms that so many people have died for and half the world aspires to.
Our leaders may be bad, but they don’t send assassins to other countries to kill people with slow radiation deaths out of a petty sense of revenge. Putin is vile.
The irony of a man who crushes free speech abusing our right to free speech to criticise the West is probably too much for some.
I appreciate our forefathers who fought for our freedoms, every ounce of me is grateful for their sacrifice. I do wonder what they'd think if they could see the way this country is being run though. I worry about the future, will our government ban the right to protest completely? It seems like they're trying to, unless it's organised and agreed by them first...
I never said Putin was anything other than vile. But then, he's not the only one I think is vile.
Thanks for what you're doing with Saints by the way, keep it up!
No, our politicians just sell weapons to terrorist nations, pretend there are weapons of mass destruction in countries to justify illegal wars and go around bombing whoever they like.
You talk of Western leaders as being more moral and this word “freedom” gets bandied about as justification for all kinds of atrocities.
But sometimes I wonder if the only thing stopping them from carrying out grotesque acts like Putin is the justice systems that were set up by the previous generations. Systems that in my opinion are being eroded away as punishments get softer and softer - especially for the rich & powerful.
Seeing how Trudeau stopped bank accounts and locked people up for protesting. Seeing how Assange, Snowden and others have been treated by the UK & US.
Seeing how Boris Johnson himself convinced the Ukrainians to back out of a peace deal with Russia to make sure that the war continues and thousands more die.
I value the freedom and the country live in more than you know. But I can’t think of a single modern politician that represents those old values. They represent an elite bubble that are completely out of touch with how their decisions affect everyday people. They care about their careers and how much money they can squeeze out of the populace rather than how they can help the country.
They all make me sick. None of these politicians, Eastern or Western seem to value human lives. So no, by no means am I a defender of Putin. But I’m not a defender of the West’s behaviour either and I think you are being very naive in thinking we are “the good guys”. There are no good guys. There are just selfish people vying for power and following their incentives.
Oh, and make no mistake, free speech in the West was under threat before Elon Musk bought Twitter. Government agencies were silencing accounts and people that went against their narratives.
The censorship was absolutely insane - and carried out by western governments pressuring social media. He did an amazing thing there by shining a light on it. So they aren’t above censorship either.
Dude, so many well thought out responses by others that you haven't even engaged with. Here is your ballbuster of a long response and I am going to show it the respect you struggle to do for others. Enjoy!
1. No, our politicians just sell weapons to terrorist nations, pretend there are weapons of mass destruction in countries to justify illegal wars and go around bombing whoever they like.
Some of this is true. It doesn't make the rest true. You are starting in murky waters though. Calling some nations terrorist nations. That suggests there is an innate evil to certain countries. It would be like trying to make peace with Russia, correct? To negotiate with and strengthen evil doers, by your logic, is bad. Ergo, making peace with Russia - who you have twice called evil in previous comments - would be bad. I would argue the west doesn't really like bombing anyone. That is what western democratic values do. Look at the weight of discussion on these boards - mostly against Israeli bombings. Democracy ensures killing people has a political cost.
Putin doesn't feel that cost. Ukrainians are pretty much related to Russians. He is killing them but has no worry of political repercussions. This is a fact you don't seem to want to admit - that a government like ours which is fairly inept is BEHOLDEN on the people to aim for peace. Putin is not.
2. Seeing how Trudeau stopped bank accounts and locked people up for protesting. Seeing how Assange, Snowden and others have been treated by the UK & US.
Right wing talking points agogo here! Let's not stop the truth getting in the way of your fun. In the recent findings against Trudeau he was NOT found to have locked up ANYONE for protesting. He was criticised for the bank account stuff. And that is what DEMOCRACY does. It holds people accountable for their actions. NOBODY is holding Putin accountable for ****. He is an evil man - who you admire for his intellect - murdering people with impunity.
Assange being brought up is fascinating to me. I thought right-wingers believed in the rule of law? He absolutely, 100% undeniably broke the law. You like the ends of his law-breaking? Fine. But later on in this response you start talking about the need for tough laws. But not for Assange? Not because you like what he did?
Snowden, again, broke the law. That is categorically true. The thing is, that he still disproves your essential point - the West does do its best to be as good as it can. Obama - who you hate because... I don't know why - listened to Snowden and made a lot of legal changes on the back of his efforts. This is democracy in action again - even an illegal voice is heard. Not so in Russia, where all voices that harm the master message are brutally silenced.
3. I value the freedom and the country live in more than you know. But I can’t think of a single modern politician that represents those old values. They represent an elite bubble that are completely out of touch with how their decisions affect everyday people. They care about their careers and how much money they can squeeze out of the populace rather than how they can help the country.
Mate... this is what everyone on this board has been saying for years. But it is also a horribly limited view of politicians. There are plenty of hardworking and idealistic politicians out there. You just can't see them. In part because - sorry to say it - there are none left in the Tory party. People like Major and Clarke, who had genuine ideals, have been forced out by the ludicrous populism of the right.
It is choice to say all politicians are the same. It is a choice of the ignorant and of the party in power. It is absolutely not true.
4. They all make me sick. None of these politicians, Eastern or Western seem to value human lives. So no, by no means am I a defender of Putin. But I’m not a defender of the West’s behaviour either and I think you are being very naive in thinking we are “the good guys”. There are no good guys. There are just selfish people vying for power and following their incentives.
They do though. I can't stand Rishi Sunak but do you honestly believe he doesn't care about people dying? And "good guys" vs "bad guys" is the very essence of naivety. Nobody has said the West is good, but our value set is worth fighting for. The freedom to argue like this. The freedom to not like our government. These are things Russians don't have.
Life is about choosing the lesser evil, and Putin is pretty high up there on the evil tree. There are also people within Russia risking their lives to oppose Putin because they believe in human life. Russians are not bad people. Nor are Israelis. Nor are Muslims. But there are a lot of seriously messed up leaders out there. My prevailing point is that WE CAN ELECT NEW LEADERS, Putin will be there until he dies.
5. Oh, and make no mistake, free speech in the West was under threat before Elon Musk bought Twitter. Government agencies were silencing accounts and people that went against their narratives.
The censorship was absolutely insane - and carried out by western governments pressuring social media. He did an amazing thing there by shining a light on it. So they aren’t above censorship either.
This is conspiracy nut ****. People have fought this one with you before but I won't bother. I will just point out that Russia has been manipulating social media for at least 15 years. The social media world is as high as 20% Russian bots. Russian hackers are actively influencing Western politics.
And the best bit? Russia does everything it can to silence dissenting voices:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-59687496
I don't care if you this all politicians are the same. I started today pretty appalled to see you having the remotest sympathy for a man who murders people he doesn't like, who crushes political dissent, and who has stolen billions from his people. What actually frightens the ****ing bejeezus out of me is how the American Right has become a tool for Putin. You can align yourself with people Putin has made his bitches. Well done.
To add a couple things to that very good post:
"our politicians just sell weapons to terrorist nations". Man, wait until you find out who has propped up the Assad regime in Syria through the sale of arms (and direct military intervention), which is responsible for at least half a million dead and 10 million refugees.
On Obama: he also commuted the sentence of Chelsea Manning. She had been sentenced to 35 years (and would have served at least 30 of those owing to the way federal prison time works in the US), but was released after 6.5 owing to his intervention. We have no idea what he'd have done with Assange and Snowden because, well, they skipped the country.
(before someone says "well, Obama prosecuted her in the first place"...no, he didn't. Manning was prosecuted by the military. The president and Department of Justice have no direct influence over how the military handles violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice).
"our politicians just sell weapons to terrorist nations". Man, wait until you find out who has propped up the Assad regime in Syria through the sale of arms (and direct military intervention), which is responsible for at least half a million dead and 10 million refugees.
On Obama: he also commuted the sentence of Chelsea Manning. She had been sentenced to 35 years (and would have served at least 30 of those owing to the way federal prison time works in the US), but was released after 6.5 owing to his intervention. We have no idea what he'd have done with Assange and Snowden because, well, they skipped the country.
(before someone says "well, Obama prosecuted her in the first place"...no, he didn't. Manning was prosecuted by the military. The president and Department of Justice have no direct influence over how the military handles violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice).
garysfc
Well-Known Member
I’m in awe of your response & have nothing but support to add. However, one analogy struck a cord … the evil tree! Nicely put & I'm very sure all the protagonists have some skeletons but it’s pretty obvious who are in the top branches. I know mine & that’s for ****ing sure. Putin, Hamas, Netanyahu …. Maybe I shouldn’t have said my “favourites” but there you go. There’s a lot of evil out there with wrong agenda (imo obviously).
garysfc
Well-Known Member
Just watching Graham Norton & Ian Mckellen is guest. 84 sharp, incisive, funny. Joe Biden 3 yrs younger … hum?
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I will respond in kind as this is a mental post and deserves a response.
“Some of this is true. It doesn't make the rest true. You are starting in murky waters though. Calling some nations terrorist nations. That suggests there is an innate evil to certain countries. It would be like trying to make peace with Russia, correct? To negotiate with and strengthen evil doers, by your logic, is bad. Ergo, making peace with Russia - who you have twice called evil in previous comments - would be bad. I would argue the west doesn't really like bombing anyone. That is what western democratic values do. Look at the weight of discussion on these boards - mostly against Israeli bombings. Democracy ensures killing people has a political cost.
Putin doesn't feel that cost. Ukrainians are pretty much related to Russians. He is killing them but has no worry of political repercussions. This is a fact you don't seem to want to admit - that a government like ours which is fairly inept is BEHOLDEN on the people to aim for peace. Putin is not.”
What I said is true. The west has made awful decision after awful decision. America, the EU and the UK / NATO have sacrificed any moral high ground, long ago.
You’re right, there is no such thing as a terrorist state and that was poorly worded. What I meant was weaponising and funding regimes which are absolutely antithetical to everything the west should stand for.
You are equating what the majority in the West want with what the Western politicians want. In my opinion there is a clear and obvious divide here.
When 1 million people marched against the Iraq war, we were ignored. When hundreds of thousands march against Palestinian conflict, they are ignored.
Politicians do not care about the opinion of the majority.
Putin doesn’t feel a political cost; but the big thing you’re forgetting is that he IS smart and competent. Do you think he would risk the wrath of NATO and the west without some sort of long term strategy?
I don’t know what his strategy is. But one thing I know for sure: it ISNT to be “a bad guy” and randomly attack places because he’s insane. This is what the media would have you believe.
“Right wing talking points agogo here! Let's not stop the truth getting in the way of your fun. In the recent findings against Trudeau he was NOT found to have locked up ANYONE for protesting. He was criticised for the bank account stuff. And that is what DEMOCRACY does. It holds people accountable for their actions. NOBODY is holding Putin accountable for ****. He is an evil man - who you admire for his intellect - murdering people with impunity.
Assange being brought up is fascinating to me. I thought right-wingers believed in the rule of law? He absolutely, 100% undeniably broke the law. You like the ends of his law-breaking? Fine. But later on in this response you start talking about the need for tough laws. But not for Assange? Not because you like what he did?
Snowden, again, broke the law. That is categorically true. The thing is, that he still disproves your essential point - the West does do its best to be as good as it can. Obama - who you hate because... I don't know why - listened to Snowden and made a lot of legal changes on the back of his efforts. This is democracy in action again - even an illegal voice is heard. Not so in Russia, where all voices that harm the master message are brutally silenced.”
Not right wing talking points, in my opinion. Common sense points.
- Free speech is vital for a well functioning society
- Moral correctness is not always the same as legal correctness. In fact , it is our duty to discover the law when it is morally wrong. Almost every advancement in human rights was originally against the law. (See MLK, suffragettes, etc)
Law is not the highest truth. Morality is. Morality and decency comes above the law.
I mention snowden and Assange etc because in any decent society they would be hailed as heroes for shining a spotlight on corruption and law-breaking by government.
Your next point, I won’t respond to. I am not a Tory. I maintain that no one represents the true working class of this country. It’s not labour.
This is getting too difficult to format and respond to now.
But to summarise: large governments are the enemy of the people. They have too much power. Whether it’s a dictator like Putin or a failing democracy like ours. The big problem is large governments having too much power and unlimited funds.
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And how has his presidency been awful?
Got any reasons why you believe this - when his policy achievements are comprehensive and objectivity impressive - other than your claim he's "senile".
I agree both the incumbent and the likely opposition candidate are too old for another term.
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- Record inflation
- Wars springing up around the globe
- undermined USD as reserve currency
- made the west a laughing stock
- created a border crisis
He honestly couldn’t have done a worse job
Same with the other guy too. I reckon Trump is more likely to die first. The guy's brain seems to be nearly rotted away at this point (citing Nicky Haley when it's clearly Nancy Pelosi he's trying to ramble on about, Obama constantly mentioned as being the current president, wild wild stuff)
Trump's vengeful sociopathic zeal and energy remains - which is perhaps as misleading, as the man's hair configuration and make-up; whereas Biden is pale and very low energy, he's the more cogent of the two old men.
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And people can accuse me of being crazy all they like, but one thing that Putin DEFINITELY DID NOT say in his interview was anything resembling this:
Western propaganda is ****ing mental now. I’ve not been to Russia to see the propaganda that gets released there, but ours has to be on par.
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Western propaganda is ****ing mental now. I’ve not been to Russia to see the propaganda that gets released there, but ours has to be on par.
To be fair awful is probably too much. He hasn’t really done much IMO of any note. Though the high inflation etc is the same the world over so maybe it isn’t him.
yep
Certain contacts are being maintained,” Putin told Carlson, but declined to go into further detail.
However, the Russian president added: “If somebody has the desire to send regular troops, that would certainly bring humanity to the brink of a very serious global conflict.”
Putin has history of nuclear willy waving. this one example there are plenty more. Enough of this nonsense there's footy later and a few domestic chores to be done first.
https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-update-russias-elite-ukraine-war-major-speech-2023-02-21/
It was caused by excessive money printing during covid & now the ukraine/Israel wars. Too much money in circulation = inflation.
He didn’t start it but he exacerbated it. Loose government fiscal policies around the world continue to pour fuel on the fire
Yep agree with that entirely. However, the only caveat is that the global pandemic was unprecedented and no government knew how to react. They should though have gone back to their A level economics to see the causes of inflation.