Off Topic Politics Thread

[Osvaldorama]

I've just read that. It is interesting as pre-Brexit, the levels of 300,000 per year net migration were one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU. Now, post Brexit, we have more than double that.

In a country that struggles to improve services and has desperate issues with housing, I do see these levels are worrying. If more people are coming, we need to spend a lot of money to make a country we can all enjoy living in.

Even when these levels drop again (if they do), we will be looking at 300,000 net migration per year - with about 1.5 million extra in those years where the migration spiked. Those are crazy figures!

You racist! You absolute bigot & facist. How dare you point this out. You must be a right wing gammon.

Immigration brings ONLY positives. You are NOT ALLOWED to mention any of the perfectly valid points in your post.

Please attend the nearest school or university in your area for more diversity & inclusion training

 

[Gregm1988]

This says more about the bias of surveys in the education system than anything else.

One of the smartest people I know with a degree in politics voted for Brexit; and he knew more about it than anyone

Surely you should know better than anyone that anecdotal evidence is pretty much meaningless ? Point is that over 70% of people with high cognitive abilities in this survey voted remain. At no point did it ever say no smart people voted remain. Or even that the smartest definitely did. Just that a higher proportion with over developed (much higher) voted remain and a lower proportion with under developed (about 60:40) voted leave. I didn’t hear what was said about the middle - presumably skews slightly to leave. I also don’t know if it factors in the cognitive abilities of those who didn’t vote at all

 

[StJabbo1]

I wanted to see if he would openly admit it though. Carl Benjamin (formerly Sargon of Akkad, UKIP candidate and host of right leaning podcast/YouTube channel) appears to be doing exactly the same - solely watching I’m a Celeb for Farage

I hope they have a box of tissues to hand.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Surely you should know better than anyone that anecdotal evidence is pretty much meaningless ? Point is that over 70% of people with high cognitive abilities in this survey voted remain. At no point did it ever say no smart people voted remain. Or even that the smartest definitely did. Just that a higher proportion with over developed (much higher) voted remain and a lower proportion with under developed (about 60:40) voted leave. I didn’t hear what was said about the middle - presumably skews slightly to leave. I also don’t know if it factors in the cognitive abilities of those who didn’t vote at all

Yes, sure I get it.

Everyone that disagrees with you is dumb. How could anyone clever possibly have different opinions on complex issues than you? You and those that attend that university know everything.

It’s clearly not a totally bogus study designed for propaganda. No sir

 

[Gregm1988]

I’ve got a video queued up where the suggestion is Nigel is going on the show to raise his profile so he can promote PR. If so then I’m actually all for it. We should have it. Then the parties can split.

The aforementioned Carl/Sargon and his Lotus Eater lot can have their “more right wing than the current Tories” party lead by Nigel or Suella or whoever. Momentum/Novarra can split off and be lead by Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar (and no doubt get an even smaller percentage than the right wing equivalent).

And then the majority of the votes will be fought over by more sensible parties with the occasional flare up of something more spicy when things get a bit too dull and one of the more extreme lot get a brief coalition stint

And the SNP can get the level of say they actually deserve etc etc

 

[Gregm1988]

Yes, sure I get it.

Everyone that disagrees with you is dumb. How could anyone clever possibly have different opinions on complex issues than you? You and those that attend that university know everything.

It’s clearly not a totally bogus study designed for propaganda. No sir

Eh? What are you raving about. What university. I am commenting on what I have heard about the study. My views are not relevant to this. So this isn’t about people agreeing with me at all. I’d like to think that if it had said the opposite I still would be able to talk about the findings. And not just dismiss them out of hand as bogus. A claim you can’t make

I’ll happily admit I only briefly heard this on a clip earlier so I have not investigated the study and its methodology. I’m pretty confident you haven’t done this either (yet). But I don’t suppose you need to - it says something you don’t like so gets dismissed out of hand. Which you are usually pretty quick to criticise others for doing

I expect you are at least partially right and there are suspect elements to this. Notably how are cognitive abilities determined for the purpose of this study. And who were polled/interviewed. But as I said - I haven’t looked at the research

I simply commented on the results I heard and how they can still be true AND your super smart friend can still have voted leave. It is you who are chucking the whole thing out based seemingly on that personal anecdote and personal distaste for the findings. Even though they don’t necessarily say anything about you personally

But I now remember how tiresome this can be. I did my best to intentionally avoid posting when it was mostly Middle East stuff

 

[Osvaldorama]

Eh? What are you raving about. What university. I am commenting on what I have heard about the study. My views are not relevant to this. So this isn’t about people agreeing with me at all. I’d like to think that if it had said the opposite I still would be able to talk about the findings. And not just dismiss them out of hand as bogus. A claim you can’t make

I’ll happily admit I only briefly heard this on a clip earlier so I have not investigated the study and its methodology. I’m pretty confident you haven’t done this either (yet). But I don’t suppose you need to - it says something you don’t like so gets dismissed out of hand. Which you are usually pretty quick to criticise others for doing

I expect you are at least partially right and there are suspect elements to this. Notably how are cognitive abilities determined for the purpose of this study. And who were polled/interviewed. But as I said - I haven’t looked at the research

I simply commented on the results I heard and how they can still be true AND your super smart friend can still have voted leave. It is you who are chucking the whole thing out based seemingly on that personal anecdote and personal distaste for the findings. Even though they don’t necessarily say anything about you personally

But I now remember how tiresome this can be. I did my best to intentionally avoid posting when it was mostly Middle East stuff

I don’t need to go through the methodology to know that such a claim is completely ridiculous.


Here is a life hack for you;
Almost all “studies”, “polls” and survey results published like this in the media are mostly fake and/or used fiddled statistics in order to create a certain narrative.

People can twist data to tell any story they like

 

[StJabbo1]

I don’t need to go through the methodology to know that such a claim is completely ridiculous.


Here is a life hack for you;
Almost all “studies”, “polls” and survey results published like this in the media are mostly fake and/or used fiddled statistics in order to create a certain narrative.

And mostly quoted by you.

 

[The Ides of March]

Fantastic news. Hopefully more anti-globalist politicians get elected across Europe and we may have a chance of saving the west

Thing is Geert Wilders is a total fraud as he is preaching a message he does not believe in. Likewise Farage! When a guy is always smirking when giving his opinión, you know he is being dishonest! Wilders does this all the time he is speaking, as does Farage, Johnson, Trump, Mogg and even Blair!

 

[shoot_spiderman]

As I posted before the UK has a failed system under funded and under resourced. The years of austerity have taken their toll across the board.

And wasted funding in just locking up and releasing to reoffend
Benefits to society would be enormous if we reduced recidivism
Spend more to save more

 

[LincolnSaint]

And wasted funding in just locking up and releasing to reoffend
Benefits to society would be enormous if we reduced recidivism
Spend more to save more

How would you plan to reduce recidivism? How much money would need to be spent? How many victims of crime are ok in your eyes before you say, you know what? This person cannot/will not be rehabilitated?

I think there needs to be a culture shift back to the idea that prison is a place of punishment rather than a one stop health/mental health/educational/vocational training facility

 

[saintlyhero]

Chaotic scenes in Dublin last night following the tragic knife attack against children.
The Irish police have been careful about the information they’ve released to the general public and stating they believe the attack was an isolated incident and not linked to terrorism.

It then appears a protest which the police claim was fuelled by misinformation about the attack quickly became violent and led to a full scale riot with shops looted and vehicles set on fire.

Well done to the members of the public who halted the attacker, including a Deliveroo driver from Brazil who clobbered him with his crash helmet.
A 5 year old girl is in critical condition and hopefully she can be saved.

 

[Osvaldorama]

How would you plan to reduce recidivism? How much money would need to be spent? How many victims of crime are ok in your eyes before you say, you know what? This person cannot/will not be rehabilitated?

I think there needs to be a culture shift back to the idea that prison is a place of punishment rather than a one stop health/mental health/educational/vocational training facility

We have tried being liberal. It isn’t working.

The ability to reform should always be there, but protecting the public from dangerous, selfish and violent individuals should be the number one priority.

Everyone in the justice system seems to have forgotten this fairly obvious point.

Criminals are no longer scared (or even mildly discouraged) to commit crimes. This trend is only getting worse and worse.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

One problem we have in this country is that we have a different attitude towards taxation - generally lower is better.
So countries where people pay a high percentage, get great services and have achieved significant positive results in prisoner reform such as in Scandinavia.

That will never happen here, but equally, governments don't have the cash to build enough prisons or pay enough staff to lock up all those that can't be reformed by bargain basement methods we currently use.

So I'd say the problem is lack of taxation

 

[tomw24]

We have tried being liberal. It isn’t working.

The ability to reform should always be there, but protecting the public from dangerous, selfish and violent individuals should be the number one priority.

Everyone in the justice system seems to have forgotten this fairly obvious point.

Criminals are no longer scared (or even mildly discouraged) to commit crimes. This trend is only getting worse and worse.

While that may be true, the same can also be said in America, where sentences are much harsher. So it's not as simple as make sentences tougher for most criminals. I'm no expect on this so I don't have any real solutions but I do know it's an extremely complex and volatile situation. The USA are real big on punishment over rehabilitation and that country is ****ed up.

 

[LincolnSaint]

While that may be true, the same can also be said in America, where sentences are much harsher. So it's not as simple as make sentences tougher for most criminals. I'm no expect on this so I don't have any real solutions but I do know it's an extremely complex and volatile situation. The USA are real big on punishment over rehabilitation and that country is ****ed up.

My solution to this is fairly simple. We need Jails and we need prisons.

Jails work similar to now for low level theft/PO type offences, but sentences aren't completed with time, rather qualifications I.e. you can get out when you've completed a GCSE in English and Maths, or basic trade training. To further this I would change the law so that CRB checks are only required in jobs where there's access to the vulnerable or peoples homes, which would help ensure that on release they could get jobs and contribute to society. Its pointless releasing people from prison for them to be unable to work due to a criminal record.

For all offences against the person or SAC recidivism, then there's Prison. Prison isn't ****ing about any more. There's no rehab, no educational courses you're banged up 23/7. No TVs, no PlayStation. You serve every minute of your sentence. Reoffending results in more Prison.

 

[tiggermaster]

In my opinion criminality has many causes, they are however often closely related. Occasionally there are stupid laws and more often stupid intepretation of those laws.
There are individuals who are psychopaths, that is someone without conscience. Whether such people where born psychopathic or developed psychopathy because of how they were raised is an argument that has never been resolved. Commonly called nature v nuture. Whether such people can be helped/reformed/treated is a difficult question.
The same is true of people with borderline personality disorder where often behaviour can become uncontrolled and subsequently destructive. Can these people be helped/rehabilitated? There are those who believe ongoing nuturing might be beneficial, others belong in the lock up and throw away the key brigade.
There is also a large number of people who have had difficult upbringings that have left them without the emotional skills and often practical skills necessary to thrive. Some of these people find their way into criminality, perhaps because it is required to survive and others because as Bob Dylan put it, "when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose".
To give some context, when I started working in mental health services over 50 years ago at Knowle Hospital there were over 700 in patients. Approximately 100 were deemed accutely ill and might well recover. 350 were longstay patients many of whom had at one stage or another
fallen foul of the law, but were now 'medicated' and 'institutionalised' Another 250 were elderly mentally ill, many with dementia. Knowle provided services for Southampton, Eastleigh Southern Parishes, Fareham and Gosport. The elderly services only provided for Fareham and Gosport. Moorgreen providing the service for Southampton Eastleigh Southern Parishes. Winchester Prison Services will tell you they now deal with many who would have found themselves in Knowle or similar. General Hospitals are unable to discharge elderly people with complex needs/behaviour.. My point being particularly in respect of offending/disturbed adults is that often they find their way to prison because there are no alternatives.
Years ago we had functioning services, probation services that had staff adequately trained and funded, not now. We had highly skilled staff who would visit bridewells daily to consult with the police to determine whether there were prisoners who could be diverted out of the CJS into mental health services.
My overall point is if we don't try and work with those in the CJS we will need to build a lot more prisons. Sorry to witter on but some of the comments above need further thought in my humble opinion

 

[Osvaldorama]

In my opinion criminality has many causes, they are however often closely related. Occasionally there are stupid laws and more often stupid intepretation of those laws.
There are individuals who are psychopaths, that is someone without conscience. Whether such people where born psychopathic or developed psychopathy because of how they were raised is an argument that has never been resolved. Commonly called nature v nuture. Whether such people can be helped/reformed/treated is a difficult question.
The same is true of people with borderline personality disorder where often behaviour can become uncontrolled and subsequently destructive. Can these people be helped/rehabilitated? There are those who believe ongoing nuturing might be beneficial, others belong in the lock up and throw away the key brigade.
There is also a large number of people who have had difficult upbringings that have left them without the emotional skills and often practical skills necessary to thrive. Some of these people find their way into criminality, perhaps because it is required to survive and others because as Bob Dylan put it, "when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose".
To give some context, when I started working in mental health services over 50 years ago at Knowle Hospital there were over 700 in patients. Approximately 100 were deemed accutely ill and might well recover. 350 were longstay patients many of whom had at one stage or another
fallen foul of the law, but were now 'medicated' and 'institutionalised' Another 250 were elderly mentally ill, many with dementia. Knowle provided services for Southampton, Eastleigh Southern Parishes, Fareham and Gosport. The elderly services only provided for Fareham and Gosport. Moorgreen providing the service for Southampton Eastleigh Southern Parishes. Winchester Prison Services will tell you they now deal with many who would have found themselves in Knowle or similar. General Hospitals are unable to discharge elderly people with complex needs/behaviour.. My point being particularly in respect of offending/disturbed adults is that often they find their way to prison because there are no alternatives.
Years ago we had functioning services, probation services that had staff adequately trained and funded, not now. We had highly skilled staff who would visit bridewells daily to consult with the police to determine whether there were prisoners who could be diverted out of the CJS into mental health services.
My overall point is if we don't try and work with those in the CJS we will need to build a lot more prisons. Sorry to witter on but some of the comments above need further thought in my humble opinion

I think it’s very easy to go soft on people and blame their upbringings and surroundings.

But I also look at the flip side and see people that were born into poverty and bad surroundings yet turn out law abiding and successful anyway.

Blaming society and people’s backgrounds only works to a point. Then it becomes a cop out.

There has to be self accountability a justice system that protects law & order.

When do we start asking people to take some responsibility instead of pandering to people?

My local co-op just lets people steal now. The shopkeer is a nice young lad. I asked him why he just lets it happen and he said because he got in trouble when he tried to stop it.

The police are ineffective. The justice system is ineffective. And we have let in thousands, potentially tens of thousands of undocumented & unaccounted for criminals into the country.

All of those “low IQ” Brexit voters predicted this exact outcome

 

[StJabbo1]

In my opinion criminality has many causes, they are however often closely related. Occasionally there are stupid laws and more often stupid intepretation of those laws.
There are individuals who are psychopaths, that is someone without conscience. Whether such people where born psychopathic or developed psychopathy because of how they were raised is an argument that has never been resolved. Commonly called nature v nuture. Whether such people can be helped/reformed/treated is a difficult question.
The same is true of people with borderline personality disorder where often behaviour can become uncontrolled and subsequently destructive. Can these people be helped/rehabilitated? There are those who believe ongoing nuturing might be beneficial, others belong in the lock up and throw away the key brigade.
There is also a large number of people who have had difficult upbringings that have left them without the emotional skills and often practical skills necessary to thrive. Some of these people find their way into criminality, perhaps because it is required to survive and others because as Bob Dylan put it, "when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose".
To give some context, when I started working in mental health services over 50 years ago at Knowle Hospital there were over 700 in patients. Approximately 100 were deemed accutely ill and might well recover. 350 were longstay patients many of whom had at one stage or another
fallen foul of the law, but were now 'medicated' and 'institutionalised' Another 250 were elderly mentally ill, many with dementia. Knowle provided services for Southampton, Eastleigh Southern Parishes, Fareham and Gosport. The elderly services only provided for Fareham and Gosport. Moorgreen providing the service for Southampton Eastleigh Southern Parishes. Winchester Prison Services will tell you they now deal with many who would have found themselves in Knowle or similar. General Hospitals are unable to discharge elderly people with complex needs/behaviour.. My point being particularly in respect of offending/disturbed adults is that often they find their way to prison because there are no alternatives.
Years ago we had functioning services, probation services that had staff adequately trained and funded, not now. We had highly skilled staff who would visit bridewells daily to consult with the police to determine whether there were prisoners who could be diverted out of the CJS into mental health services.
My overall point is if we don't try and work with those in the CJS we will need to build a lot more prisons. Sorry to witter on but some of the comments above need further thought in my humble opinion

Thanks for that it confirms the harm done by austerity, wilful damage some cynical old farts might say running down services paving the way for privatisation.

 

[West Kent Saint]

In my opinion criminality has many causes, they are however often closely related. Occasionally there are stupid laws and more often stupid intepretation of those laws.
There are individuals who are psychopaths, that is someone without conscience. Whether such people where born psychopathic or developed psychopathy because of how they were raised is an argument that has never been resolved. Commonly called nature v nuture. Whether such people can be helped/reformed/treated is a difficult question.
The same is true of people with borderline personality disorder where often behaviour can become uncontrolled and subsequently destructive. Can these people be helped/rehabilitated? There are those who believe ongoing nuturing might be beneficial, others belong in the lock up and throw away the key brigade.
There is also a large number of people who have had difficult upbringings that have left them without the emotional skills and often practical skills necessary to thrive. Some of these people find their way into criminality, perhaps because it is required to survive and others because as Bob Dylan put it, "when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose".
To give some context, when I started working in mental health services over 50 years ago at Knowle Hospital there were over 700 in patients. Approximately 100 were deemed accutely ill and might well recover. 350 were longstay patients many of whom had at one stage or another
fallen foul of the law, but were now 'medicated' and 'institutionalised' Another 250 were elderly mentally ill, many with dementia. Knowle provided services for Southampton, Eastleigh Southern Parishes, Fareham and Gosport. The elderly services only provided for Fareham and Gosport. Moorgreen providing the service for Southampton Eastleigh Southern Parishes. Winchester Prison Services will tell you they now deal with many who would have found themselves in Knowle or similar. General Hospitals are unable to discharge elderly people with complex needs/behaviour.. My point being particularly in respect of offending/disturbed adults is that often they find their way to prison because there are no alternatives.
Years ago we had functioning services, probation services that had staff adequately trained and funded, not now. We had highly skilled staff who would visit bridewells daily to consult with the police to determine whether there were prisoners who could be diverted out of the CJS into mental health services.
My overall point is if we don't try and work with those in the CJS we will need to build a lot more prisons. Sorry to witter on but some of the comments above need further thought in my humble opinion

Indeed. Systemic family issues (bigger picture) contribute to offending, where offending behavior is modeled. As Os says though, of course not all families that have experienced poverty fall into criminality, just like not all privileged people turn into Boris Johnson.

I do think a contributing factor is cuts to funding of mental health services and mismanagement of probation hasn't helped. I think rehabilitation and education has it's place and I believe has worked well in some European countries with younger offenders.