Off Topic Politics Thread

[The Ides of March]

They had an opportunity to remove her this year, but the Fareham Conservatives are fully paid members of the lunatic wing, they will be more likely to rail against Rishi Sunak for sacking her.

Fareham Conservatives usted to be "traditional Conservatives" but seem to have been invaded by aliens (ukip).that have taken over the corpus of the membership.

 

[StJabbo1]

Fareham Conservatives usted to be "traditional Conservatives" but seem to have been invaded by aliens (ukip).that have taken over the corpus of the membership.

They'll get done like a ukipper come the election.

 

[San Tejón]

You vote for a party, who selects an elected leader

Sunak was elected by the MPs and not the party, iirc.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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[Saintjoey]

Bit rich coming from someone who seems to be in favour of genocide.
Lucky I don’t give a **** about your opinions.

What a lovely chap you are. You post that you wish somebody dead in a public forum because he has differing views to you? And I’m the genocidal one. I’m defeated by the power of your logic.

 

[Saintjoey]

Those on the left always claim to be noble and virtuous, but when push comes to shove left wing ideology is deeply rooted in narcissism and a sense of “I know better than everyone else”.

I have colleagues and friends who are very much left leaning. Wonderful debaters, profoundly intelligent and we agree as much as we disagree.

Those who are on the extreme side of either side are the same and equally revolting. The National Socialists preyed on precisely that, as well as ignorance, of course.

 

[Onionman]

What a lovely chap you are. You post that you wish somebody dead in a public forum because she has differing views to you?

Do you think he really wanted Suella drowned or do you think it might just have been rhetorical hyperbole?

Vin

 

[Saintjoey]

Do you think he really wanted Suella drowned or do you think it might just have been rhetorical hyperbole?

Vin

Given he revisited the death trope in the same post and his subsequent reply accusing me of being genocidal, I suspect the former. Either way, totally unacceptable, inflammatory and uncalled for.

 

[Onionman]

Given he revisited the death trope in the same post and his subsequent reply accusing me of being genocidal, I suspect the former. Either way, totally unacceptable, inflammatory and uncalled for.

You really think it was a genuine desire to see someone murdered.

Vin

 

[Saintjoey]

What


You really think it was a genuine desire to see someone murdered.

Vin

I think it’s deeply unpleasant. It’s absolutely fine that you don’t.

 

[The Ides of March]

I believe in taxation, but I also believe that once you start taxing at 40,50 or 60% on a portion of earnings, two things happen. Firstly, some people are demotivated to earn more so entrepreneurs (that in turn may employ people) stagnate or cut back as the extra effort isn't worth it. Secondly, they will try to fiddle the system.

Have a higher personal allowance of say 20k, then say 20-60k is 25%, anything over 65k is 35%. Scrap the stupid lower tax on dividends from your own company (as that just encourages business owners to pay themselves up to the threshold and then take the rest as dividends). What this will do is stop people from doing cash in hand jobs so more will be declared. remove a level of bureaucracy to business owners (as a lot less of their staff will have to pay tax) and encourage people to try to earn more as they will keep more. If you keep more, you spend more.


Studies have shown (I have no source, this is from memory of a year or so ago) that overall the government will collect about 10-15% more in taxes with lower rates and higher thresholds.

^^This is my right wing stance to generate the taxes to pay for the Welfare and National Health service. Welfare should be there not as free money but to help and to encourage those that can work to try to get back on the payroll. Those that can't through sickness, disability etc should be fully supported.

There will always be those that abuse any system, but by encouraging people to work by letting them keep more of what they earn will boost the public coffers and also make sure welfare goes to those that need it, not those that don't want to work or simple are caught in the trap where they are better off not working. There is no silver bullet, the way the tories have acted over the last few years has made people resent anyone who earns well and gives out the "tax those that earn well as they can afford it and are all fiddling anyway" feeling.

Then you have public services. These IMO should be amongst the best paid jobs as they are the jobs that keep the country going. The old 'oh the NHS is so inefficient' is IMO true. If we could somehow cut the waste (I know, I know, Tory PPE etc), maybe that money could go to the infrastructure and the staff to make people proud to be doctors and nurses and want to be one again.

The problem is I feel is that everyone has different views on different things and only lean one way in general to the other. The one party fits all doesn't work and never will. Maybe we need a coalition government with Labour and Conservative - a true 50/50 government so each side could keep the other in check. It will never happen and never work, but possibly the only way to keep everyone happy.

There are probably so many holes in my arguments, but to be fair this is probably the first time I have actually thought about it like this.

Coalition Government? We have a genius PM in Spain who works well.with other left of centre parties and the Catalinists. This coalition has a majority.of 4 and is keeping out PP and Vox!!
In the Balearics, though, the dimwitted PP.are in a coalition with Vox. IMO, the PP should have gone it alone and introduced a legislative program.thst would not be opposed by PSOE or Mes, the main left of centre parties

 

[Onionman]

I think it’s deeply unpleasant. It’s absolutely fine that you don’t.

I didn't make any comment about how I feel about it. It's not something I think I'd say. But I did once suggest that the only way to improve one of my previous bosses would be to push him into an open lift shaft. The people who heard it laughed rather than pretending I was actually inciting murder.

Vin

 

[Saintjoey]

I didn't make any comment about how I feel about it. It's not something I think I'd say. But I did once suggest that the only way to improve one of my previous bosses would be to push him into an open lift shaft. The people who heard it laughed rather than pretending I was actually inciting murder.

Vin

I think contextually, after twice wishing for somebody’s death and then, subsequently, accusing people on a football forum of genocide when they disagree with you and pick you up on sinister language pushes you deep into the unacceptable category rather than the hilarious banter category.

Your anecdote is a hilarious one and I can only express my regret at not being there to enjoy it.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Interesting that the Sleaford Mods stopped a gig in Madrid the other day, because someone kept throwing a Palestinian flag at them. They didn’t halt the gig because they had a pro-Israeli view, but because this idiot just would not stop.

Anyhow, they’ve had to put out posts since that point explaining why they did it, and explaining that they were against the mass murders perpetrated by both Hamas and the IDF leaders.

So many of the responses to that post have been along the lines of “YOU NEED TO PICK A SIDE”, and for me, therein lies the problem. People are being asked to put aside such things as logic, understanding, and not least an understanding that this is significantly more complex than a Facebook or Not606 post, and to ‘pick a side’.

Welcome to 2023 everyone. It’s ridiculous.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

Very sensible for the Government to appoint a Minister for Common Sense, Lord knows they lack it.

Oh they mean for us?

 

[Onionman]

I believe in taxation, but I also believe that once you start taxing at 40,50 or 60% on a portion of earnings, two things happen. Firstly, some people are demotivated to earn more so entrepreneurs (that in turn may employ people) stagnate or cut back as the extra effort isn't worth it. Secondly, they will try to fiddle the system.

Have a higher personal allowance of say 20k, then say 20-60k is 25%, anything over 65k is 35%. Scrap the stupid lower tax on dividends from your own company (as that just encourages business owners to pay themselves up to the threshold and then take the rest as dividends). What this will do is stop people from doing cash in hand jobs so more will be declared. remove a level of bureaucracy to business owners (as a lot less of their staff will have to pay tax) and encourage people to try to earn more as they will keep more. If you keep more, you spend more.


Studies have shown (I have no source, this is from memory of a year or so ago) that overall the government will collect about 10-15% more in taxes with lower rates and higher thresholds.

^^This is my right wing stance to generate the taxes to pay for the Welfare and National Health service. Welfare should be there not as free money but to help and to encourage those that can work to try to get back on the payroll. Those that can't through sickness, disability etc should be fully supported.

There will always be those that abuse any system, but by encouraging people to work by letting them keep more of what they earn will boost the public coffers and also make sure welfare goes to those that need it, not those that don't want to work or simple are caught in the trap where they are better off not working. There is no silver bullet, the way the tories have acted over the last few years has made people resent anyone who earns well and gives out the "tax those that earn well as they can afford it and are all fiddling anyway" feeling.

Then you have public services. These IMO should be amongst the best paid jobs as they are the jobs that keep the country going. The old 'oh the NHS is so inefficient' is IMO true. If we could somehow cut the waste (I know, I know, Tory PPE etc), maybe that money could go to the infrastructure and the staff to make people proud to be doctors and nurses and want to be one again.

The problem is I feel is that everyone has different views on different things and only lean one way in general to the other. The one party fits all doesn't work and never will. Maybe we need a coalition government with Labour and Conservative - a true 50/50 government so each side could keep the other in check. It will never happen and never work, but possibly the only way to keep everyone happy.

There are probably so many holes in my arguments, but to be fair this is probably the first time I have actually thought about it like this.

We differ on some of the details but I'm in a similar position. I'd say if left to right was a 180 Deg semicircle, I'm probably about 5 Deg right.

Economically.
I think private enterprise is a good thing. It's (to a good extent) efficient, generates wealth and leads to better standards of living. At the same time, I understand the head start I've had and I think we need a good, strong welfare state for the people whom capitalism fails. I'm happy (as I've previously posted) to pay taxes if I see it being spent well. I also put immigration under 'economic views', largely because pretty much every single study carried out suggests that immigration is economically beneficial. Apart from the social aspects of immigration, that benefit leads me to, in general, support it.

Socially.
I'm a radical liberal. People are individuals; let them do what the hell they want. If people want to demonstrate peacefully, let them. If someone wants to be called a woman or a man, call them a woman or a man. If two (or more) people want to do something with their naughty bits with consent, it's no business of mine. If a woman doesn't want to host a foetus, who am I to tell her not to? If a fellow human being has different colour skin from me, deal with them as a fellow human being. And if someone is fleeing war or persecution, give them solace and help.

So, overall, I'm around the middle, notwithstanding being called 'woke' on a regular basis on here.

For many years, One Nation Tories probably reflected my views best. Unfortunately the Tory Pary has slumped rightwards. The Labour Party slumped leftwards for several years but is now capturing centrists like me. (I say that in the knowledge that 'centrist' is a term of abuse for those on the far left - I've been pretty violently attacked for it on social media).

Anyway, that's my tupenn'orth.

Vin

 

[Saintjoey]

We differ on some of the details but I'm in a similar position. I'd say if left to right was a 180 Deg semicircle, I'm probably about 5 Deg right.

Economically.
I think private enterprise is a good thing. It's (to a good extent) efficient, generates wealth and leads to better standards of living. At the same time, I understand the head start I've had and I think we need a good, strong welfare state for the people whom capitalism fails. I'm happy (as I've previously posted) to pay taxes if I see it being spent well. I also put immigration under 'economic views', largely because pretty much every single study carried out suggests that immigration is economically beneficial. Apart from the social aspects of immigration, that benefit leads me to, in general, support it.

Socially.
I'm a radical liberal. People are individuals; let them do what the hell they want. If people want to demonstrate peacefully, let them. If someone wants to be called a woman or a man, call them a woman or a man. If two (or more) people want to do something with their naughty bits with consent, it's no business of mine. If a woman doesn't want to host a foetus, who am I to tell her not to? If a fellow human being has different colour skin from me, deal with them as a fellow human being. And if someone is fleeing war or persecution, give them solace and help.

So, overall, I'm around the middle, notwithstanding being called 'woke' on a regular basis on here.

For many years, One Nation Tories probably reflected my views best. Unfortunately the Tory Pary has slumped rightwards. The Labour Party slumped leftwards for several years but is now capturing centrists like me. (I say that in the knowledge that 'centrist' is a term of abuse for those on the far left - I've been pretty violently attacked for it on social media).

Anyway, that's my tupenn'orth.

Vin

Believe it or not, I agree!

(Most) People would happily pay higher taxes if they could see tangible benefit. Look at the way the State looks after its people in most of the Scandinavian countries. High tax burden, high percentage reinvested into public services which promotes trust, too. Fair deal.

 

[Onionman]

I think contextually, after twice wishing for somebody’s death and then, subsequently, accusing people on a football forum of genocide when they disagree with you and pick you up on sinister language pushes you deep into the unacceptable category rather than the hilarious banter category.

Your anecdote is a hilarious one and I can only express my regret at not being there to enjoy it.

I don't think the people who heard it thought it was 'hilarious'. But then they didn't think I was deadly serious either.

And I strongly suspect that you know that his comment about Braverman wasn't serious either and your response to it is just performative anger.

Vin

 

[Saintjoey]

I don't think the people who heard it thought it was 'hilarious'. But then they didn't think I was deadly serious either.

And I strongly suspect that you know that his comment about Braverman wasn't serious either and this is just performative anger.

Vin

Performative anger and beyond is stopping Jews feeling comfortable in the UK at the moment so it hits a very raw nerve. I think context is important and so is awareness.

 

[Onionman]

Interesting that the Sleaford Mods stopped a gig in Madrid the other day, because someone kept throwing a Palestinian flag at them. They didn’t halt the gig because they had a pro-Israeli view, but because this idiot just would not stop.

Anyhow, they’ve had to put out posts since that point explaining why they did it, and explaining that they were against the mass murders perpetrated by both Hamas and the IDF leaders.

So many of the responses to that post have been along the lines of “YOU NEED TO PICK A SIDE”, and for me, therein lies the problem. People are being asked to put aside such things as logic, understanding, and not least an understanding that this is significantly more complex than a Facebook or Not606 post, and to ‘pick a side’.

Welcome to 2023 everyone. It’s ridiculous.

I've been directly asked (off this forum) which side I support. And my response has been the same. I don't have a side - not one of the parties involved (for there are more than two) is coming out of this smelling of roses. The people who ask me seem surprised that I don't pick a side.

As you say, welcome to the.new world where you MUST have an opinion so people can pigeonhole you.

Vin