Off Topic Politics Thread

[StJabbo1]

“but not by France, the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Canada, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Netherlands, Republic of Korea, Spain andSwitzerland”

Where do you live?

I repeat as you seem to have a problem understanding plain English. What the **** has where I live got to do with the fact that State of Palestine exists and is recognised by the UN. Your post is 100% bullshit. I'll add there are 130 other countries who do recognise that fact. Palestinian statehood has nothing to do with the heinous crimes that Hamas have and are continuing to commit.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I repeat as you seem to have a problem understanding plain English. What the **** has where I live got to do with the fact that State of Palestine exists and is recognised by the UN. Your post is 100% bullshit. I'll add there are 130 other countries who do recognise that fact. Palestinian statehood has nothing to do with the heinous crimes that Hamas have and are continuing to commit.

There is no need for insults, especially as you are so clearly and obviously wrong.
We do not recognise Palestine here in the UK.

Sadly I don’t think any evidence of it will exist after this week anyway. Looks like Israel are preparing to go in

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

It is worth pointing out that a lot of Palestinians hate Hamas, by the way. The two shouldn't necessarily be conflated, much as Afghanis aren't Taliban, and Iraqis aren't AQI/ISIS.

 

[Osvaldorama]

It is worth pointing out that a lot of Palestinians hate Hamas, by the way. The two shouldn't necessarily be conflated, much as Afghanis aren't Taliban, and Iraqis aren't AQI/ISIS.

Why did they elect them as leaders of the country?

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Why did they elect them as leaders of the country?

Because the other option was Fatah, who are equally awful.

The point being, hating on Hamas (fair enough) is different and needs to be stated so to hating on Palestine/Palestinians.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

This is the most reasonable thing I’ve read.

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[StJabbo1]

There is no need for insults, especially as you are so clearly and obviously wrong.
We do not recognise Palestine here in the UK.

Sadly I don’t think any evidence of it will exist after this week anyway. Looks like Israel are preparing to go in

I'm not wrong clearly and obviously not. The UK and some other governments don't recognise the Palestinian state not the entire populations.
"The State of Palestine has been recognized by 139 of the 193 UN members and since 2012 has had a status of a non-member observer state in the United Nations."

"On 29 November 2012, in a 138–9 vote (with 41 abstentions and 5 absences),[62] the United Nations General Assembly passed resolution 67/19, upgrading Palestine from an "observer entity" to a "non-member observer state" within the United Nations System, which was described as recognition of the PLO's sovereignty.[39][40][63][64][65] Palestine's new status is equivalent to that of the Holy See.[66] The UN has permitted Palestine to title its representative office to the UN as "The Permanent Observer Mission of the State of Palestine to the United Nations."
Scroll down to "International Recognition". Nothing could be clearer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sta... of Palestine has,state in the United Nations.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I'm not wrong clearly and obviously not. The UK and some other governments don't recognise the Palestinian state not the entire populations.
"The State of Palestine has been recognized by 139 of the 193 UN members and since 2012 has had a status of a non-member observer state in the United Nations."

"On 29 November 2012, in a 138–9 vote (with 41 abstentions and 5 absences),[62] the United Nations General Assembly passed resolution 67/19, upgrading Palestine from an "observer entity" to a "non-member observer state" within the United Nations System, which was described as recognition of the PLO's sovereignty.[39][40][63][64][65] Palestine's new status is equivalent to that of the Holy See.[66] The UN has permitted Palestine to title its representative office to the UN as "The Permanent Observer Mission of the State of Palestine to the United Nations."
Scroll down to "International Recognition". Nothing could be clearer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#:~:text=The State of Palestine has,state in the United Nations.

Do you live in the UK? Are you a UK citizen? Do you abide by UK laws or UN laws?

 

[Gregm1988]

Why did they elect them as leaders of the country?

Come now. You know better than this. A majority didn’t. Just like a majority of our country did not elect the current shower we have. That’s not how electoral politics works. I know you are astute enough to know this. So why make the above comment?

Also I can’t seem to see that there has been an election since 2006. Their elections were postponed indefinitely in 2021

So the more accurate answer to “why did they elect them” is “they didn’t”. Especially given what I am hearing about how low the life expectancy is there.

 

[StJabbo1]

Do you live in the UK? Are you a UK citizen? Do you abide by UK laws or UN laws?

No I don't live in the UK as posts passim, yes I am a UK citizen registered as an overseas voter I think you know that. By what law should I be abiding by in the UK or in the country I'm living in that also doesn't recognise Palestine and to what UN law are you referring? There isn't one it's nonsense to suggest there is. Non recognition by the UK doesn't mean there isn't a Palestinian State how can you not grasp that? Your original post "Palestine was never actually a sovereign nation btw". Is not true. Perhaps this along with all the other proofs I've posted will help you understand. I won't be holding my breath waiting for the apology I deserve. "In 1974 the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence, sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People and conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in UN conferences." https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=In 1974 the General Assembly,, sovereignty, and to return.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Come now. You know better than this. A majority didn’t. Just like a majority of our country did not elect the current shower we have. That’s not how electoral politics works. I know you are astute enough to know this. So why make the above comment?

Also I can’t seem to see that there has been an election since 2006. Their elections were postponed indefinitely in 2021

So the more accurate answer to “why did they elect them” is “they didn’t”. Especially given what I am hearing about how low the life expectancy is there.

Another big question is why do Egypt not open the borders? Why do no other Islamic countries want to help the Palestinians re-settle?

I find the entire thing so hard to comprehend from all sides.

But one thing I know for sure is that if you go waaay back in time, Christianity was in this region in the 1st Century AD. The oldest buildings in the region are actually churches, then synagogues and only then will you find mosques. Muslims didn’t actually arrive until some 500 years later. So there are claims upon claims upon claims to all of these ancient lands.

You can find historic links and reasons to look for hatred anywhere you look in this world. There is simply never any excuse for violence and slaughtering innocents.

It feels like breaking point. Hamas went too far and this is the end of the road for them. I just hope as few civilians get caught up in this as possible.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Another big question is why do Egypt not open the borders? Why do no other Islamic countries want to help the Palestinians re-settle?

I find the entire thing so hard to comprehend from all sides.

But one thing I know for sure is that if you go waaay back in time, Christianity was in this region in the 1st Century AD. The oldest buildings in the region are actually churches, then synagogues and only then will you find mosques. Muslims didn’t actually arrive until some 500 years later. So there are claims upon claims upon claims to all of these ancient lands.

You can find historic links and reasons to look for hatred anywhere you look in this world. There is simply never any excuse for violence and slaughtering innocents.

It feels like breaking point. Hamas went too far and this is the end of the road for them. I just hope as few civilians get caught up in this as possible.

Trouble is, this attack has bugger all to do with Palestine in reality, and bugger all to do with territory. Hamas (and by inference Hezbollah and notably Iran) are basically terrified that Israel has been making strides in doing business and improving relations (bit by bit) with the UAE and most importantly, Saudi Arabia.

Iran and their little proxy terrorist armies are getting left behind, so they want to create a situation where Israel overreacts (much as the US and it's cohorts did to 9/11) and that in turn disrupts this progress they've been making with the other Arab states. It's a desperate, grim move, but that's the reason behind it. Nothing really to do with Palestine. It's just provoking Israel to do something that halts the good stuff.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Trouble is, this attack has bugger all to do with Palestine in reality, and bugger all to do with territory. Hamas (and by inference Hezbollah and notably Iran) are basically terrified that Israel has been making strides in doing business and improving relations (bit by bit) with the UAE and most importantly, Saudi Arabia.

Iran and their little proxy terrorist armies are getting left behind, so they want to create a situation where Israel overreacts (much as the US and it's cohorts did to 9/11) and that in turn disrupts this progress they've been making with the other Arab states. It's a desperate, grim move, but that's the reason behind it. Nothing really to do with Palestine. It's just provoking Israel to do something that halts the good stuff.

Yeah that seems like a good take on the situation.

But like I said it feels like they went too far this time. This only ends with either the extinction of Hamas or the extinction of Israel. This was the 9/11 or pearl harbour.

For all of Israel’s faults I truly believe they thought peace could be an option down the road, but that is off the table now with the grotesque scenes we have witnessed.

Sad times

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Yeah that seems like a good take on the situation.

But like I said it feels like they went too far this time. This only ends with either the extinction of Hamas or the extinction of Israel. This was the 9/11 or pearl harbour.

For all of Israel’s faults I truly believe they thought peace could be an option down the road, but that is off the table now with the grotesque scenes we have witnessed.

Sad times

There is no "too far" for them though. There's only "too far" in terms of Israel's reaction (which may then turn Saudi Arabia etc against them). What really needs to happen now is a proportionate response, but (going against the natural reaction) a response that's considered and contained. That's going to be hard for them to do/stomach (particularly when it's a twat like Netanyahu in charge).

 

[StJabbo1]

Analysis of the problems Israel would have with invading.
Ground invasion of Gaza is no silver bullet against Hamas threat

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Frank Gardner

Security correspondent

There is an assumption in some quarters that the threat to Israel from Hamas can somehow be eliminated once and for all with a full-scale invasion on the ground.

History would suggest this is unlikely to be the silver bullet some are hoping for.

When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014, more than 2,000 Palestinians were killed, with each funeral generating ever more radicalised young men.

Since then, Hamas has continued to fire rockets across the border.

Its armed wing is believed to number around 30,000 fighters, most of them fanatical in their determination to defend Palestinian land. They know their tunnels, cellars, bunkers and backstreets better than the invaders.

Such a densely populated piece of territory is no place for tanks, which would be highly vulnerable to ambush.

From a purely military standpoint, a ground assault could result in short-term success, eliminating most of Hamas’s commanders.

But in the absence of a lasting peace deal, Hamas would likely regenerate itself, calling up a new generation of angry, radicalised young fighters.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explaining what a ground attack may look like.
"Israel has a much larger military but Hamas has adapted in recent years to take advantage of the urban environment".
Concluding paragraph:-
"A full re-occupation of Gaza would be profoundly challenging and probably beyond Israel’s capacity to administer in the long term, which suggests that if Israel does go for a full invasion its objective is more likely to be a comprehensive defeat of Hamas."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aeli-ground-offensive-in-gaza-could-look-like

The eradication of Hamas and/or Hezbollah is not at all likely. Their end, if it ever happened, would produce a vacuum that would be quickly filled. How this endless cycle of violence can be ended and peaceful coexistence established is way beyond me and I think anyone however experienced in peace negotiations they may be.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

Another big question is why do Egypt not open the borders? Why do no other Islamic countries want to help the Palestinians re-settle?

I find the entire thing so hard to comprehend from all sides.

But one thing I know for sure is that if you go waaay back in time, Christianity was in this region in the 1st Century AD. The oldest buildings in the region are actually churches, then synagogues and only then will you find mosques. Muslims didn’t actually arrive until some 500 years later. So there are claims upon claims upon claims to all of these ancient lands.

You can find historic links and reasons to look for hatred anywhere you look in this world. There is simply never any excuse for violence and slaughtering innocents.

It feels like breaking point. Hamas went too far and this is the end of the road for them. I just hope as few civilians get caught up in this as possible.

I can give a basic answer to that without much detail I'm afraid. It needs researching more thoroughly which I don't have the inclination to do just now.

As I understand it there is an organisation within Egypt called something like The Moslem or Islamic Brotherhood. The Egyptian authorities believe they have connections to Hamas and are keeping the border closed to prevent an amalgamation/mutual support. That's all I can tell you.

 

[......loading......]

Analysis of the problems Israel would have with invading.
Ground invasion of Gaza is no silver bullet against Hamas threat

You must log in or register to see images

Frank Gardner

Security correspondent

There is an assumption in some quarters that the threat to Israel from Hamas can somehow be eliminated once and for all with a full-scale invasion on the ground.

History would suggest this is unlikely to be the silver bullet some are hoping for.

When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014, more than 2,000 Palestinians were killed, with each funeral generating ever more radicalised young men.

Since then, Hamas has continued to fire rockets across the border.

Its armed wing is believed to number around 30,000 fighters, most of them fanatical in their determination to defend Palestinian land. They know their tunnels, cellars, bunkers and backstreets better than the invaders.

Such a densely populated piece of territory is no place for tanks, which would be highly vulnerable to ambush.

From a purely military standpoint, a ground assault could result in short-term success, eliminating most of Hamas’s commanders.

But in the absence of a lasting peace deal, Hamas would likely regenerate itself, calling up a new generation of angry, radicalised young fighters.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explaining what a ground attack may look like.
"Israel has a much larger military but Hamas has adapted in recent years to take advantage of the urban environment".
Concluding paragraph:-
"A full re-occupation of Gaza would be profoundly challenging and probably beyond Israel’s capacity to administer in the long term, which suggests that if Israel does go for a full invasion its objective is more likely to be a comprehensive defeat of Hamas."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aeli-ground-offensive-in-gaza-could-look-like

The eradication of Hamas and/or Hezbollah is not at all likely. Their end, if it ever happened, would produce a vacuum that would be quickly filled. How this endless cycle of violence can be ended and peaceful coexistence established is way beyond me and I think anyone however experienced in peace negotiations they may be.

The solution is simple. Just need that God guy to come and sort it out. He has done it loads of times before. Doesn’t make sense that he has fallen asleep now!

 

[All_Southampton_FC]

Do you live in the UK? Are you a UK citizen? Do you abide by UK laws or UN laws?

Abiding by UK law? I'm not going to spend time going through all your posts on here but I'm fairly confident you've spoken about the right for peaceful protest in the UK for example, which our govt are trying to clamp down on with the public order bill. Do you live in the UK? Do you abide by it? Just because you live somewhere you don't have to agree with everything that's law. With respect, you of all people should know that.

 

[StJabbo1]

The solution is simple. Just need that God guy to come and sort it out. He has done it loads of times before. Doesn’t make sense that he has fallen asleep now!

Someone has to have god on their side.

I take the Stephen Fry attitude to god:-
“How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain.”

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[Osvaldorama]

Abiding by UK law? I'm not going to spend time going through all your posts on here but I'm fairly confident you've spoken about the right for peaceful protest in the UK for example, which our govt are trying to clamp down on with the public order bill. Do you live in the UK? Do you abide by it? Just because you live somewhere you don't have to agree with everything that's law. With respect, you of all people should know that.

True, it’s your duty to disobey immoral laws.

I don’t know how i feel about this though. Everything I find about Palestine history makes me question how legitimate their claims to the land actually are. There was no proper country there before.

It seems as though Palestine as a nation is a direct result of the creation of Israel. Which I guess was to be expected if you just plonk a load of people there and call it a country. Everything since then has compounded on top of violence.

Do they have any claim to that land? Not really. Any land is up for grabs. You are only entitled to that which you can defend. If Israel is more powerful then they will take it. This is the sick truth of humanity.

All in all it’s an absolute **** show.