Off Topic Politics Thread

[Schad]

Are you on a wind up or do you not understand the written word....

".....they had two options. Negotiate a ceasefire with Russia and an eventual peace deal, or fight"

I have pointed this out numerous times, but they did this. Ukraine negotiated a deal with Dmitry Kozak, Russia's emissary. It would have provided Russia with guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO, among other things. Putin rejected it, because Putin wanted to annex large parts of Ukraine.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-...eace-deal-recommended-by-his-aide-2022-09-14/

 

[Kaito]

You're becoming very personal and moderately aggressive here and I don't know why. I asked what they should do in a situation where the options were, effectively, negotiate or fight. Your answer was "negotiate or fight". Forgive me but that doesn't really sound helpful.

I appreciate that you think I'm stupid because I disagree with you but frankly I'm just very bored of people dodging the question. Whether you like it or not, you appear to be doing the same.

You clearly don't want to answer so, in the interests of not angering you any more, I'll disengage.

Vin

Sorry Vin, you asked this - "Once the Russians were over the border for the second time in six years and rolling tanks toward Kyiv with the stated intention of removing the Ukrainian government, what should Ukraine have done? Should they have negotiated?

I replied with this - ".....they had two options. Negotiate a ceasefire with Russia and an eventual peace deal, or fight"

For the life of me I do not know why you don't understand my answer. It's simple, it's written in English and it's the only two options that I can think of.

Unless of course you are expecting to give you a roadmap to negotiations or a military plan to fight the Russians?

 

[Onionman]

Here Dave, when Che was through on goal last night, what should he have done?

Shot or passed.

I know. We all know that, but which should he have done?

You deaf? he should have shot or passed, you idiot.

You're not really answering the question.

Can't you parse even basic English? He should have shot or passed. Are you expecting exact details on how he should have shot or ****ing passed, you tosser?

Enough.

 

[Kaito]

I’m not sure how you negotiate a sensible peace with a country that doesn’t believe you should exist? Did you read Medvedev’s tweet? And Putin has been saying it for ages, and from before the invasion.

How can you say that when you know that is just not correct, and you even recommended (quite correctly) we all watched that brilliant programme your father-in-law made with the BBC -

The MI5 Spy and the IRA: Operation Chiffon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001kl8p/the-mi5-spy-and-the-ira-operation-chiffon

There was little hope of peace in Northern Ireland and yet some people found a way to continuing to reach out to each other, and to maintain contact while working towards peace.

There is always hope for peace, and not everything written and broadcast in the Western Media is true or unbiased.

Peace just takes brave people with a vision and a desire for the killing to stop, for it to sometimes happen in rather miraculous ways.

 

[Kaito]

Here Dave, when Che was through on goal last night, what should he have done?

Shot or passed.

I know. We all know that, but which should he have done?

You deaf? he should have shot or passed, you idiot.

You're not really answering the question.

Can't you parse even basic English? He should have shot or passed. Are you expecting exact details on how he should have shot or ****ing passed, you tosser?

Enough.

You should ease off the alcohol before it eats any more of your brain cells.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I think Ukraine should have negotiated but ensured that it was a negotiation sponsored by the likes of UN whereby they would have had sufficient backing to make Putin think again. I am not sure that it would have worked but we are now in a situation whereby Russia's military might has been shown to be a sham and even Putin's tried and tested method of conducting warfare by flattening the opposition is not bringing about the successes seen in places like Syria. If there are any "winners" in this conflict, then I would have to saw it is NATO who now have more members and have seen a potential adversary humiliated and China who will benefit from seeing Russia significantly diminished. The fact that China can now be more emboldened is potentially more scary.

I would tend to think that the war will eventually play itself out to a stale mate with Ukraine effectively levelled and the Russian military / political system in a state of such shambles that Putin will be ousted and other parts of the former USSR will fancy their chances. I cannot see a resolution for a long while and you wonder what victory for Ukraine would look like after Putin has finished. I would argue that if Ukraine had let the Russians invade, they would have been incapable to retaining these lands on the long term. Putin has effectively ensured his early demise. The leaks publish on line with week are suggestive that we are coming to an end game with neither sides capable to serving the coup de grace.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

How can you say that when you know that is just not correct, and you even recommended (quite correctly) we all watched that brilliant programme your father-in-law made with the BBC -

The MI5 Spy and the IRA: Operation Chiffon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001kl8p/the-mi5-spy-and-the-ira-operation-chiffon

There was little hope of peace in Northern Ireland and yet some people found a way to continuing to reach out to each other, and to maintain contact while working towards peace.

There is always hope for peace, and not everything written and broadcast in the Western Media is true or unbiased.

Peace just takes brave people with a vision and a desire for the killing to stop, for it to sometimes happen in rather miraculous ways.

Extraordinarily different set of circumstances. That’s not even apples and oranges, it’s apples and golf balls.

At the onset of this invasion, Russia had absolutely no interest in negotiating. They didn’t (and still don’t) believe Ukraine has a right to exist. It’s more akin to saying that the Jews should have negotiated with the Nazis (and please don’t bother throwing Godwin nonsense at me as a get-out for that). As Schad said, they did try and negotiate, and the Russians weren’t interested.

Now that circumstances have changed, should we/they/whoever be trying to negotiate? Yes, absolutely, and the likes of Macron have been pushing for that.

 

[Kaito]

Extraordinarily different set of circumstances. That’s not even apples and oranges, it’s apples and golf balls.

At the onset of this invasion, Russia had absolutely no interest in negotiating. They didn’t (and still don’t) believe Ukraine has a right to exist. It’s more akin to saying that the Jews should have negotiated with the Nazis (and please don’t bother throwing Godwin nonsense at me as a get-out for that). As Schad said, they did try and negotiate, and the Russians weren’t interested.

Now that circumstances have changed, should we/they/whoever be trying to negotiate? Yes, absolutely, and the likes of Macron have been pushing for that.

So now that circumstances have changed and the West/Nato see there is no way of beating Russia in a proxy war it's ok to consider negotiating?

Pick a fight, realise you can't win and then think it's time to talk?

The intelligent version is -

Talk because you can't win and there's no point in picking a fight.

Macron has started pushing for talks because the major supplies of nuclear fuel for the French nuclear power stations comes from Russia and France has continued trading with Russia despitet the sanctions. In addition, the EU recognise that the agreement between China and Russia is likely to be a very chilly wind that blows across Europe next winter when the US $ is no longer the default petro-currency.

The West will deal with Russia when it suits us and that dialogue will be hastened when America is focusing on China, and has lost interest in Ukraine because it knows it can't bring about regime change in Russia.

 

[......loading......]

So now that circumstances have changed and the West/Nato see there is no way of beating Russia in a proxy war it's ok to consider negotiating?

Pick a fight, realise you can't win and then think it's time to talk?

The intelligent version is -

Talk because you can't win and there's no point in picking a fight.

Macron has started pushing for talks because the major supplies of nuclear fuel for the French nuclear power stations comes from Russia and France has continued trading with Russia despitet the sanctions. In addition, the EU recognise that the agreement between China and Russia is likely to be a very chilly wind that blows across Europe next winter when the US $ is no longer the default petro-currency.

The West will deal with Russia when it suits us and that dialogue will be hastened when America is focusing on China, and has lost interest in Ukraine because it knows it can't bring about regime change in Russia.

I think this is all based on hot air, Kaito. Macron has always had a soft spot for Russia because it suits him, not the world. Everyone is ready to negotiate with Russia, but they cannot be given more than they had before this war, or the world will suffer. Russia has committed dreadful acts against world peace because the man who runs the country is a machiavellian psychopath, not because he was forced into it.

Russia is ****ing itself harder than the west is being ****ed. Why would we bend in that situation?

 

[Kaito]

I think this is all based on hot air, Kaito. Macron has always had a soft spot for Russia because it suits him, not the world. Everyone is ready to negotiate with Russia, but they cannot be given more than they had before this war, or the world will suffer. Russia has committed dreadful acts against world peace because the man who runs the country is a machiavellian psychopath, not because he was forced into it.

Russia is ****ing itself harder than the west is being ****ed. Why would we bend in that situation?

Even a quick Internet search throws up this lot, and the only hot air is blowing out of Macron's arse.....


https://www.rfi.fr/en/international...as-france-continues-to-import-russian-uranium

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/ukr...quietly-importing-russian-nuclear-energy.html

https://www.investigate-europe.eu/e...ro-nuclear-exports-untouched-by-eu-sanctions/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scie...ce-russia-nuclear-fuel-ukraine-war-greenpeace

https://ukrainetoday.org/2022/12/04...putins-war-effort-by-buying-his-nuclear-fuel/

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

So now that circumstances have changed and the West/Nato see there is no way of beating Russia in a proxy war it's ok to consider negotiating?

Pick a fight, realise you can't win and then think it's time to talk?

The intelligent version is -

Talk because you can't win and there's no point in picking a fight.

Macron has started pushing for talks because the major supplies of nuclear fuel for the French nuclear power stations comes from Russia and France has continued trading with Russia despitet the sanctions. In addition, the EU recognise that the agreement between China and Russia is likely to be a very chilly wind that blows across Europe next winter when the US $ is no longer the default petro-currency.

The West will deal with Russia when it suits us and that dialogue will be hastened when America is focusing on China, and has lost interest in Ukraine because it knows it can't bring about regime change in Russia.

What? Nobody is saying “don’t negotiate”. What people are saying, and that you’re ignoring, is that you couldn’t negotiate with Russia at the beginning, and THEY DID TRY. But Russia wasn’t interested in negotiation, because they (and by they, I mean Putin and some of his cronies) don’t recognise Ukraine’s right to exist (again).

The reason there may be (or may not be) room to now negotiate, is that it hasn’t gone terribly well for Putin. So maybe (or maybe not) he may now be open to the negotiation he wasn’t open to when he decided to invade a neighbour. Nothing to do with the West realising that Russia can’t be defeated.

And they didn’t pick this fight ffs. Putin did.

 

[StJabbo1]

This is ****ing awful.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ing-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules
"Trigger Cut say their passports were confiscated and they were kept in a room for verification at Calais, before a Border Force officer asked them for a “certificate of sponsorship” (COS) from each venue they were due to play.

Ralph Schaarschmidt, Trigger Cut’s guitarist, wrote on Facebook: “Months of planning, 1,750km of driving to Calais and back to Stuttgart, van hire costs, paid for expensive customs declarations, ferry ticket – all for nothing. We are sitting in a deep dark hole emotionally right now, this is a nightmare … I think I’ve never felt so degraded, sad and bad as I do today.”

 

[Kaito]

What? Nobody is saying “don’t negotiate”. What people are saying, and that you’re ignoring, is that you couldn’t negotiate with Russia at the beginning, and THEY DID TRY. But Russia wasn’t interested in negotiation, because they (and by they, I mean Putin and some of his cronies) don’t recognise Ukraine’s right to exist (again).

The reason there may be (or may not be) room to now negotiate, is that it hasn’t gone terribly well for Putin. So maybe (or maybe not) he may now be open to the negotiation he wasn’t open to when he decided to invade a neighbour. Nothing to do with the West realising that Russia can’t be defeated.

And they didn’t pick this fight ffs. Putin did.

There's no point in dragging this on because it will never end in us agreeing on very much regarding this conflict.

You, and many others, only see it from where we are today and you conveniently disregard the history that has led to this catastrophy. Shout at me, swear at me and get frustrated at me but unless you understand the history and the duplicity the West has employed in its dealings with Russia you will only ever see a distorted view of the reality.

You believe what you read in the mainstream media but you need to widen your material sources because you and the rest of us are being lied to, day in and day out about many of the things which have a profound affect on our lives.

You feel this conflict isn't going terribly well for Putin? Keep watching the news and see just how much the narrative changes over the coming weeks.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

There's no point in dragging this on because it will never end in us agreeing on very much regarding this conflict.

You, and many others, only see it from where we are today and you conveniently disregard the history that has led to this catastrophy. Shout at me, swear at me and get frustrated at me but unless you understand the history and the duplicity the West has employed in its dealings with Russia you will only ever see a distorted view of the reality.

Agreed there’s no point, and I don’t want to argue with you. But let’s not disregard equally Putin’s well documented feelings and approach toward Ukraine and other satellite states, and his dealings with the West. Duplicity works at the very least both ways.

Worth reading Putin’s People by Catherine Belton. It’s heavy going, but a fascinating, and intricately researched book.

 

[StJabbo1]

Hoot from Holland for the striking doctors, well a ring of my bike bell, we haven't got a car. A link to more practical support below.
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/introducing-the-bma-strike-fund

 

[saintrichie123]

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[Lemons and Oranges]

Well thank goodness for the Brexit Boost, otherwise we'd be in real trouble

 

[San Tejón]

I have a guilty secret - I like and respect Baroness Sayeeda Warsi. There, I’ve said it.
She talks sense, when I have listened to her, as she does in this video, in which she talks about Suella Braverman.

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[StJabbo1]

PE Issue 1595: Lookalikes.
Sir,
Fans of the ‘60s show The Munsters will
have been pleased to see GB News recent attempt to reintroduce the comic-horror genre to TV screens. This time the main participants appear to be Dan Wootton and Priti Patel.

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[The Ides of March]

Aren't we lucky? Two Bank Holidays on the first two Mondays in May! I hope people remember why we have the first and it would be nice if the media has programmes that spelt out the message of the importance of the Trade Union Movement in helping to transform working conditions for millions of people across the UK and beyond.