Off Topic Politics Thread

[Ian Thumwood]

I am staggered by the rather ridiculous comments about "black operations" in Ukraine/ How stupid is this ? How are these people goinng to be deployed given that Russia currently has Ukraine surrounded and anything flying over the airspace will be likely to get shot down. By the same token, does no one remember what two agents managed to do in Salisbury a few years ago and not think that this would give the Russians an excuse to do something even worse. ?

 

[Gregm1988]

I am staggered by the rather ridiculous comments about "black operations" in Ukraine/ How stupid is this ? How are these people goinng to be deployed given that Russia currently has Ukraine surrounded and anything flying over the airspace will be likely to get shot down. By the same token, does no one remember what two agents managed to do in Salisbury a few years ago and not think that this would give the Russians an excuse to do something even worse. ?

Leaving aside who does and does not support black ops as I don’t know how serious people were being can I suggest you do a couple of things Ian?

1. Look at a map
2. Actually read about what is going on

Ukraine cannot possibly be surrounded without the Russians having entered Nato territory

And Russia failed to secure control over the air early on. It was on of their big and noticeable early failings that was quite widely discussed but seems to have passed you by. If that has changed it has changed very recently

It is a perfectly reasonable position to be opposed to the black ops situation (it sounds a bit silly to me). But you can stick to actual reasoned critiques rather than losing your head completely

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Are there really that many people like that about these days ?

Yes. But I think you’re getting confused. We’re talking about the actual SAS/SBS types here. Just pretending that they’re a random.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Leaving aside who does and does not support black ops as I don’t know how serious people were being can I suggest you do a couple of things Ian?

1. Look at a map
2. Actually read about what is going on

Ukraine cannot possibly be surrounded without the Russians having entered Nato territory

And Russia failed to secure control over the air early on. It was on of their big and noticeable early failings that was quite widely discussed but seems to have passed you by. If that has changed it has changed very recently

It is a perfectly reasonable position to be opposed to the black ops situation (it sounds a bit silly to me). But you can stick to actual reasoned critiques rather than losing your head completely

Greg

You are getting carried away.

Oddly enough, i have just started reading Adrian Goldsworthy's "In the name of Rome" which is an assessment of the most effective military leaders from the Punic Wars through to late antiquity. I love history albeit I do not necassarily find military history that interesting. Goldsworthy is extremely thorough with regard to Roman politics and administration but the introduction to this book does remind us that military campaigns very rarely go to plan or are totally successful. The German WW1 general Moltke is quoted as saying that in war, even the mediocre is quite an ahceivement. Some journalists have been quick to write off the Russian army and ridicule their logistical problems but these are not unique and are issues that have always dogged all military offensives.

Capturing an British SAS team in the Ukraine would be a massive propaganda coup for Putin regardless of the impractical nature of the situation. i can thnk of little more that you give him the justification to continue any campaign against the West and would also disprove a lot of his doubters domestically. I am shaking my head at the remarks regarding regime change as everyone knows how well that has worked out in Iraq and Libya!

Direct British military involvement in the last 30 years has probably only ever had one clear cut, uniquivocable success and that was in Sierra Leone. All other attempts at British intervention have been little more successful than what the Russians are acheiving now ebem though our amry has been better trained. I totally concur that any asymatrical techniques waged by the Ukrainians will be successful but whether this will ultimately defeat the kind of numbers Russia has to throw at them is debatable. They will have a disproportion effect against the Russian military but I see absolutely no reason for the West to deploy even special operations. Maybe some of the people in here watched too much A -Team in their youth as some of the comments being made are about as realistic.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I am staggered by the rather ridiculous comments about "black operations" in Ukraine/ How stupid is this ? How are these people goinng to be deployed given that Russia currently has Ukraine surrounded and anything flying over the airspace will be likely to get shot down. By the same token, does no one remember what two agents managed to do in Salisbury a few years ago and not think that this would give the Russians an excuse to do something even worse. ?

You really don't understand operations in war, do you Ian? Which is fair enough. But this stuff happens the whole time.

We're not talking about a regiment of soldiers here. We're talking about maybe 10 or so specially picked operatives who go in there to help the Ukrainians out tactically, spread a bit of chaos, potentially take out specific targets (not just human, but bridges etc to sow discord into the Russian offence). That's what happens in a war theatre. And as someone said before, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a few of them there already.

How to get them in there? You do realise that there's a load of Ukrainians pouring through the Polish border right now to escape. They would go through in the opposite direction. Simple really.

What does Salisbury have to do with it? That wasn't during war, and they did it really, really, really badly. You may have also noticed in the last few days, the Russians don't need an awful lot of excuse to do mad things either. In the unlikely event of a couple of special ops guys getting caught alive, they don't sit there and say "yeah, sorry guv, I'm special ops". They're unidentifiable.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Greg

You are getting carried away.

Oddly enough, i have just started reading Adrian Goldsworthy's "In the name of Rome" which is an assessment of the most effective military leaders from the Punic Wars through to late antiquity. I love history albeit I do not necassarily find military history that interesting. Goldsworthy is extremely thorough with regard to Roman politics and administration but the introduction to this book does remind us that military campaigns very rarely go to plan or are totally successful. The German WW1 general Moltke is quoted as saying that in war, even the mediocre is quite an ahceivement. Some journalists have been quick to write off the Russian army and ridicule their logistical problems but these are not unique and are issues that have always dogged all military offensives.

Capturing an British SAS team in the Ukraine would be a massive propaganda coup for Putin regardless of the impractical nature of the situation. i can thnk of little more that you give him the justification to continue any campaign against the West and would also disprove a lot of his doubters domestically. I am shaking my head at the remarks regarding regime change as everyone knows how well that has worked out in Iraq and Libya!

Direct British military involvement in the last 30 years has probably only ever had one clear cut, uniquivocable success and that was in Sierra Leone. All other attempts at British intervention have been little more successful than what the Russians are acheiving now ebem though our amry has been better trained. I totally concur that any asymatrical techniques waged by the Ukrainians will be successful but whether this will ultimately defeat the kind of numbers Russia has to throw at them is debatable. They will have a disproportion effect against the Russian military but I see absolutely no reason for the West to deploy even special operations. Maybe some of the people in here watched too much A -Team in their youth as some of the comments being made are about as realistic.

The WHOLE POINT is that it's not "direct British military involvement". And it's not a British SAS team. It's a handful of operatives who wouldn't all go in there together. They're probably there already (and have been for a pretty long time). (It's also why Zelensky has 'invited' any stragglers to come and help the fight - so that there's an immediate plausible deniability for the British government in the incredibly unlikely event any British nationals get caught).

 

[tomw24]

You really don't understand operations in war, do you Ian? Which is fair enough. But this stuff happens the whole time.

We're not talking about a regiment of soldiers here. We're talking about maybe 10 or so specially picked operatives who go in there to help the Ukrainians out tactically, spread a bit of chaos, potentially take out specific targets (not just human, but bridges etc to sow discord into the Russian offence). That's what happens in a war theatre. And as someone said before, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a few of them there already.

How to get them in there? You do realise that there's a load of Ukrainians pouring through the Polish border right now to escape. They would go through in the opposite direction. Simple really.

What does Salisbury have to do with it? That wasn't during war, and they did it really, really, really badly. You may have also noticed in the last few days, the Russians don't need an awful lot of excuse to do mad things either. In the unlikely event of a couple of special ops guys getting caught alive, they don't sit there and say "yeah, sorry guv, I'm special ops". They're unidentifiable.

Exactly. They're not exactly going to have "I'm British Special Forces" tattooed to their forehead are they!

 

[Archers Road]

I am staggered by the rather ridiculous comments about "black operations" in Ukraine/ How stupid is this ? How are these people goinng to be deployed given that Russia currently has Ukraine surrounded and anything flying over the airspace will be likely to get shot down. By the same token, does no one remember what two agents managed to do in Salisbury a few years ago and not think that this would give the Russians an excuse to do something even worse. ?

It’s a fantasy Ian. Not going to happen.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

It’s a fantasy Ian. Not going to happen.

It's really not. But you two feel free to believe that it's something that only happens in the A-Team. I'm going to go with my source who is...*checks notes*...a military analyst and ex Special Forces soldier (who, by the way, wishes he was still operational because he'd love to be out there right now. It's what they're trained for).


Back to the reality of war - the big concern at the moment is that the longer the Ukrainians hold out, the more chance there is of Putin going full mad bastard, because I don't see an easy way out of this for him now.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Some of you are living in the world of Tom Clancy.

There is no way British citizens will be operating in Ukraine. If they are captured this gives the Russians exactly the propaganda they need. It is pure fiction.

With regard to what happened in Salisbury, this was a botched operation by just two operatives. Lets assume that the Russians really wanted to do some damage, the effects could be catastrophic should they wish it to be.

i detest what Putin has done but it should be left to the people of Russia and Ukraine to sort out the differences even if the Wst dislikes what is happening in the short term. The best position at the moment iis to remain neutral. Putin's rein will come to an end natrually from within and there is no need for the West to try and exacerbate the system. It is a matter of being patient and playing the long game,

Shocked that some of these rather rash comments that have been posted of late are coming from people whose posts I enjoy and admire when it comes to talking about football and music.

 

[Gregm1988]

Greg

You are getting carried away.

Oddly enough, i have just started reading Adrian Goldsworthy's "In the name of Rome" which is an assessment of the most effective military leaders from the Punic Wars through to late antiquity. I love history albeit I do not necassarily find military history that interesting. Goldsworthy is extremely thorough with regard to Roman politics and administration but the introduction to this book does remind us that military campaigns very rarely go to plan or are totally successful. The German WW1 general Moltke is quoted as saying that in war, even the mediocre is quite an ahceivement. Some journalists have been quick to write off the Russian army and ridicule their logistical problems but these are not unique and are issues that have always dogged all military offensives.

Capturing an British SAS team in the Ukraine would be a massive propaganda coup for Putin regardless of the impractical nature of the situation. i can thnk of little more that you give him the justification to continue any campaign against the West and would also disprove a lot of his doubters domestically. I am shaking my head at the remarks regarding regime change as everyone knows how well that has worked out in Iraq and Libya!

Direct British military involvement in the last 30 years has probably only ever had one clear cut, uniquivocable success and that was in Sierra Leone. All other attempts at British intervention have been little more successful than what the Russians are acheiving now ebem though our amry has been better trained. I totally concur that any asymatrical techniques waged by the Ukrainians will be successful but whether this will ultimately defeat the kind of numbers Russia has to throw at them is debatable. They will have a disproportion effect against the Russian military but I see absolutely no reason for the West to deploy even special operations. Maybe some of the people in here watched too much A -Team in their youth as some of the comments being made are about as realistic.

So….you just chose to completely ignore my actual post and reply to something different

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Some of you are living in the world of Tom Clancy.

There is no way British citizens will be operating in Ukraine. If they are captured this gives the Russians exactly the propaganda they need. It is pure fiction.

With regard to what happened in Salisbury, this was a botched operation by just two operatives. Lets assume that the Russians really wanted to do some damage, the effects could be catastrophic should they wish it to be.

i detest what Putin has done but it should be left to the people of Russia and Ukraine to sort out the differences even if the Wst dislikes what is happening in the short term. The best position at the moment iis to remain neutral. Putin's rein will come to an end natrually from within and there is no need for the West to try and exacerbate the system. It is a matter of being patient and playing the long game,

Shocked that some of these rather rash comments that have been posted of late are coming from people whose posts I enjoy and admire when it comes to talking about football and music.

Ian,

We’re not the ones trying to ‘force’ regime change here. It’s Putin’s hubris that’s doing that all by itself.

Would we like it to happen? Yes, of course. He’s a horror story. Will we ‘encourage’ it? Yes.

It’s just so naive to think that we should just sit back and “let them sort it out” though. You even mentioned in one of your previous posts that China will be watching this closely. Do you not think that the fact the West have (finally) stiffened their spine a bit will be precisely the thing that gives them second thoughts about going in to Taiwan? If we’d taken your policy of sitting back and saying “not our problem”, they’d be in there already.

You can believe what you want about the special forces, but I’m not sure what you think the International Brigade is? It’ll be a ragtag mob of mercenaries from all over the world. And the perfect guise to infiltrate some more ‘experienced’ heads as well, under plausible deniability. Why are you so shocked by that?

 

[StJabbo1]

Applying sanctions, supplying weapons and humanitarian aid, giving support short of military intervention can hardly be called neutrality. There may be an international brigade formed that should be seen to be an independent group not part of NATO.

According to the UK refugee council the majority of people fleeing the war will stay in neighbouring countries hoping to return home ASAP. These are people in need of support as are those trying to join family or seek refuge in the UK or elsewhere.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Applying sanctions, supplying weapons and humanitarian aid, giving support short of military intervention can hardly be called neutrality. There may be an international brigade formed that should be seen to be an independent group not part of NATO.

According to the UK refugee council the majority of people fleeing the war will stay in neighbouring countries hoping to return home ASAP. These are people in need of support as are those trying to join family or seek refuge in the UK or elsewhere.

The international brigade has nothing to do with NATO. It was an open invite from Zelensky to anyone that wanted to come in to help defend Ukraine.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

“An unknown number of British and American volunteers…were already in Ukraine before Russia invaded last week”.

What do you imagine this means? Clue: it wasn’t people on holiday.

You must log in or register to see images

 

[StJabbo1]

The international brigade has nothing to do with NATO. It was an open invite from Zelensky to anyone that wanted to come in to help defend Ukraine.

Yes I understand that and it must be seen to be so although arms may well come from NATO members.

 

[Archers Road]

“An unknown number of British and American volunteers…were already in Ukraine before Russia invaded last week”.

What do you imagine this means? Clue: it wasn’t people on holiday.

You must log in or register to see images

I think it means what it says; veterans of the Kurdish war of independence, mercenaries, adventurers.

 

[Number 1 Jasper]

Am I the only one that thinks Putin won’t push the button ?

if he does I can’t see it being the end of the world , but really ?

He is bloody head case !

 

[Archers Road]

Am I the only one that thinks Putin won’t push the button ?

if he does I can’t see it being the end of the world , but really ?

He is bloody head case !

It’s not that hard to believe that he is a) desperate, and b) callous enough to give the order; but if that happened, I’d like to think that the people responsible for carrying out the order would refuse to do so.

 

[Gregm1988]

Am I the only one that thinks Putin won’t push the button ?

if he does I can’t see it being the end of the world , but really ?

He is bloody head case !

Are you disagreeing with yourself within the same post?

Isn’t the middle part supposed to be in blue? Because it kind of would be…