Off Topic Politics Thread

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VocalMinority said:
Yeah? i have nothing against having a referendum to implement a law, just having a law that says this decision cant be changed either with another vote or through an elected representative.

The majority of people MP's in parliament have been coming up with ways to leave Europe so binding that part wouldn't have changed anything anyway.
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Sorry I really don’t understand what you’re saying, let’s leave it.
 
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Rorschach's Journal said:
A straight 2 choice question - leave or remain? I hope that people will get off their arses and vote for that, especially the millions who didn't bother last time and I'd certainly be prepared to use it to settle the whole hash.

The problem we'll have still though is that if the vote went heavily towards remain (which I think it would given the young vote and the politicisation of some of the apathetic ) then we will have millions of original leave voters who will be furious that their democratic vote was ignored and then overturned. That being the case, a second referendum will be damaging because of the first, fraudulently fought referendum.

I'm quite prepared to put up with angry voters though, as the majority of the population would be pretty happy with a stay result.
I don't blame leavers for the mess we are in, even stubborn ignorant ones, I blame their political masters for using the population to achieve Party goals.
Dave Pigfucker Cameron first for his complacency
Then Maybot for pulling the pin on the Article 50 process so quickly - which she didn't need to do as the referendum was just advisory - rather than putting plans into place, checking viability of options and then doing the whole Art50 thing
Boris is the worst of the PMs though because I think the other 2 had principles whereas Boris has no redeeming characteristics.

And finally the movers and shakers behind every one of the above mentioned political pawns are the worst of all. They are the only ones who benefit from Brexit and it would have been at the expense of the entire economy and population of the country to achieve this...
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He's chubby! Isn't that a redeeming factor? Well, not in Johnson's case!!!
 
So we have the UK f***** up, Catalunya f****** up, all because of desperate politicians seeking popularity, the Tories in the UK's case, the Catalanists regarding the latter. Catalunya has been given a lot of self/determination. Compared with other parts of Spain it is prosperous. Pre-the present situation, its economy was doing well. I feel the present crisis had its roots 10 years ago after the crash, and obviously the state needed cash. Now we all pay our taxes to fund essential services provided by the state. However, the Catalanists decided to arouse people's emotions who live in the region, and their antipathy regarding the Spanish state,a build a momentum for Independence, something which Catalunya has never had. But hey ho, they built the momentum for protests, ran an illegal independece vote, knowing that the Spanish authorities would not countenance this, knowing that the riot pólice would come and bash people about, so it worked perfectly for them. Now we are in a situation which is rapidly getting out of control. Next weekend El Clasico has been postphoned. To reiterate again, it is solely the responsibility of the Catalanist politicians who are responsible for the situation, creating a crisis when there wasn't one. The latest protests stem from the sentencing of Catalanists politicians. If only people could think and reflect before being consumed by their emotions.

PS: I feel it is the same with people who voted Leave in the 2016 referéndum. The emotions of "patriotism", getting back control resonated with many, who failed to engage in logic, or indeed the wider picture.
 
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VocalMinority said:
I'm pretty sure what beddy is saying by binding is that we cant change our mind after the referendum, even democratically. If not i apologise.
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The point I was trying to make is..........what’s the point of having another referendum if it is not a legally binding referendum on this subject? Not necessary for all future referendums. They have them to see what people think then decide if the people are wrong and then set out to change people’s minds. Which to me seems wrong.
 
Beddytare said:
The point I was trying to make is..........what’s the point of having another referendum if it is not a legally binding referendum on this subject? Not necessary for all future referendums. They have them to see what people think then decide if the people are wrong and then set out to change people’s minds. Which to me seems wrong.
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In this country Parliament is the sovereign legislature. Not the EU, not opinion polls, not the courts, not referenda, Parliament. We had an advisory referendum in 2016, which the 2015 Parliament decided to act upon and set the wheels in motion to leave the EU.

But then a strange thing happened. In September 2017 Theresa May decided she needed a stronger mandate to pursue her idea of Brexit, and held a General Election. She lost her majority, and the public, that’s the same people who had voted in the referendum, elected a House of Commons with widely differing views on what Brexit meant, or indeed, whether Brexit should happen at all. You could argue that the current House of Commons are broadly representative of what the public think, or at least, what we thought 2 years ago. Some are out-and-out Leavers, some are out-and-out Remainers, and some are more pragmatically trying to make the best of a bad job.

Opinion polls aren’t reliable because of their small sample size, but most say the public would now vote to Remain. Holding an election, because of the strange way our system works, wouldn’t necessarily tell us whether the polls are right, but a second referendum would. If the current deal, as amended by Parliament, was put before the public in a Deal/Remain choice, I would happily make it a legally binding vote.
 
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ChilcoSaint said:
In this country Parliament is the sovereign legislature. Not the EU, not opinion polls, not the courts, not referenda, Parliament. We had an advisory referendum in 2016, which the 2015 Parliament decided to act upon and set the wheels in motion to leave the EU.

But then a strange thing happened. In September 2017 Theresa May decided she needed a stronger mandate to pursue her idea of Brexit, and held a General Election. She lost her majority, and the public, that’s the same people who had voted in the referendum, elected a House of Commons with widely differing views on what Brexit meant, or indeed, whether Brexit should happen at all. You could argue that the current House of Commons are broadly representative of what the public think, or at least, what we thought 2 years ago. Some are out-and-out Leavers, some are out-and-out Remainers, and some are more pragmatically trying to make the best of a bad job.

Opinion polls aren’t reliable because of their small sample size, but most say the public would now vote to Remain. Holding an election, because of the strange way our system works, wouldn’t necessarily tell us whether the polls are right, but a second referendum would. If the current deal, as amended by Parliament, was put before the public in a Deal/Remain choice, I would happily make it a legally binding vote.
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I agree I have never taken much notice of opinion polls but would agree about the referendum...........Its the peoples vote that got us into this mess....so why not let the people finally decide after all the differences and by doing this take the heat off whoever has to implement it. I'm pretty sure it is the most fair way of settling this issue..........Deal or stay............why not??
 
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The Ides of March said:
So we have the UK f***** up, Catalunya f****** up, all because of desperate politicians seeking popularity, the Tories in the UK's case, the Catalanists regarding the latter. Catalunya has been given a lot of self/determination. Compared with other parts of Spain it is prosperous. Pre-the present situation, its economy was doing well. I feel the present crisis had its roots 10 years ago after the crash, and obviously the state needed cash. Now we all pay our taxes to fund essential services provided by the state. However, the Catalanists decided to arouse people's emotions who live in the region, and their antipathy regarding the Spanish state,a build a momentum for Independence, something which Catalunya has never had. But hey ho, they built the momentum for protests, ran an illegal independece vote, knowing that the Spanish authorities would not countenance this, knowing that the riot pólice would come and bash people about, so it worked perfectly for them. Now we are in a situation which is rapidly getting out of control. Next weekend El Clasico has been postphoned. To reiterate again, it is solely the responsibility of the Catalanist politicians who are responsible for the situation, creating a crisis when there wasn't one. The latest protests stem from the sentencing of Catalanists politicians. If only people could think and reflect before being consumed by their emotions.

PS: I feel it is the same with people who voted Leave in the 2016 referéndum. The emotions of "patriotism", getting back control resonated with many, who failed to engage in logic, or indeed the wider picture.
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Appeals to sentiment are always easier, especially in times of crisis or hardship, than appeals to the intellect. Phoney Nationalist sentiment, which depends on stirring up resentment against one’s neighbors, is incredibly powerful tool for manipulating an angry population. Despots have known this for centuries.
 
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