I understand that fats...........Trust me I am not closed minded............My past experiences will never allow a change of mind..........they were bad experiences to the extreme. I just cannot discuss them on a forum..........Trust me I would not use them to influence anyone........they were just my family experiences. Thats all I want to say on the subject.
Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
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I understand that fats...........Trust me I am not closed minded............My past experiences will never allow a change of mind..........they were bad experiences to the extreme. I just cannot discuss them on a forum..........Trust me I would not use them to influence anyone........they were just my family experiences. Thats all I want to say on the subject.
Beddy, Forget the French and distrust of the EU for now, can you refresh me on why you think we’re better out and how/why please?
Do you still feel that with all the recent information?
Do you still feel that with all the recent information?
Take the politics out...The EU should not be the sole market we can sell to or buy from....... take away their right to over rule our Supreme Court..........all the things we used to have in the common Market. That just about sums it ups............
and yet you use the opinion of a government of 50 years ago who will mostly be dead as a reason for not trusting the current one which is a textbook example of prejudice.
Like saying the UK government is anti gay because gay marriage was banned 50 years ago.
If you have current reasons, use them.
I don't remember you every saying anything specific about the makeup of the current French government that I would be able to have a reasoned discussion with you about.
Dont keep saying thinks like how we abandoned the commonwealth in trade to join the EU all those years ago as a reason to do the same to European citizens who had nothing to do with that decision.
It's always going to sound like you are using the past to prejudice the present.
They aren’t the sole market, that’s just absurd. We get favourable trade terms with just about every country in the world BECAUSE we are in the EU.
And the ECJ has overruled our Supreme Court 16 times, out of over 700 disputes between 2003 and 2016. The times they have done have been mostly over the UK not following EU environmental regulations, so in my view it’s a good thing we were overruled. Here’s the report on the ECJ by our own Institute for Government which is well worth a read, it might just open your eyes:
https://www.instituteforgovernment..../publications/IfG_Brexit_ECJ_v10FINAL web.pdf
As for the politics, how on earth would you organise freedom of movement of goods, services, and people without a political organisation to control and regulate it all?
I don't know if we would be better off I just feel we wouldn't be any worse off we would do just as well. Although I have a sneaking feeling we would get there a lot quicker with the world as a market place rather than the just the EU. I just think we are being thwarted without that freedom..........I have listened to and read a lot of reasons for staying and some I agree with but we can achieve that if the EU were willing to compromise a bit...........
EU trade is only 50%, so that parts not true. Ethically I think it's wrong that there should not be a court that can overide a single nations court when a decision involving 2 or more nations is involved, it's the fairest way to make a decision. but that is only a opinion.
If the Eu do not have an agreement with that country we cannot trade with them is my understanding ...every one we trade with has to be approved by the EU.
Trade deals with 52 countries, and another 72 soon to be finalised. How long do you think it takes to form a trade deal between 2 countries?
Yet we had trade deals with most countries prior to joining the common market...something that has been eroded over the years I don't know if those old trade deals need ratifying its true..........but one would suppose they would ..........
Current state of play for EU trade deals
https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-free-trade-deals-has-eu-done/
This is what we walk away from with Brexit.
And this is just trade.
No one's mentioned the scientific, medical and cultural organisations we will no longer be part of, WTO rules wont cover any of that.
Brexit is scrubbing it all away and starting again with nothing.
https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-free-trade-deals-has-eu-done/
This is what we walk away from with Brexit.
And this is just trade.
No one's mentioned the scientific, medical and cultural organisations we will no longer be part of, WTO rules wont cover any of that.
Brexit is scrubbing it all away and starting again with nothing.
That was 47 years ago! Of course they would all need renegotiating, and it will take decades to get back to the position we are in today. In the meantime, we will be worse off, and for what? So that a bunch of disaster capitalists can make a killing? So that super rich people can carrying on avoiding taxation? I honestly can’t think of any other benefits to anyone, but presumably you must do?
Nail on head Chilcs. 47 years ago.
The world has changed in 47 years. We will now be a small Island negotiating for trade deals, rather than a huge economic block.
The world has changed in 47 years. We will now be a small Island negotiating for trade deals, rather than a huge economic block.
And since 1972 we have closed all our coal mines and all our major manufacturing industry, changed our remaining motor industry to a Just In Time basis relying on smooth transportation from Europe, and sold off most of our fishing quotas. Apart from being in the EU, what do we actually have left to trade with?
In a lot of peoples eyes, it would be like admitting we are no longer sustainable as a country, and that is hard to take. We sold off our gold, the pensions, our debt, and we have nothing left to trade. Is this a deliberate bankrupting? Because its starting to feel like it is. But for what purpose, so refugees no longer want to reside here? Is that the big plan? Dangerous times indeed.
We can trade with any country on WTO terms. You're confusing not being able to create individual trade deals with not being able to trade.
A single market requires that the entry points to that market all be on a level playing field. Otherwise all trade would just funnel through the lowest barrier. And with free trade within Europe it could go wherever it wants from there.
Think of it like a bucket with an uneven edge. It would then create a race to the bottom as the funnel would make a tonne more profit than everyone else. And as the barriers reach 0 it starts to defeat the point of a single market. We would lose control of our goods.
So in order to have a single market we ensure that every country inside the EU trades with countries outside on the same terms. Either WTO terms or a EU made deal that effects the whole EU.
The efficiency created by foreign companies being able to export to a single point on the EU and then produce and transport to the rest of the market from there far outweighed the negatives of WTO terms, so it benefits both countries in the EU and outside it.
Once the EU agree a deal, it benefits them even more.
If we leave the common market we will be able to choose our own deals, but the choice on offer will all be worse than the single choice we have within the EU.
Heck Chilcs.........Why on earth would you suppose I would not want someone to pay their taxes? I certainly don't want anyone to make money out of this mess. What the heck has that got to do with Brexit?? I have a feeling you too are reading too much into a lot of the cods wallop that is going around at the moment. Ok you believe it...... I'm just not convinced. You have to admit to being a little biased towards things like we have been seeing. I agree we have been slow to react to the referendum result...after all we could have been well and truly prepared should we not get a deal had we been prepared for the result.
Ok Beddy, I’m not going to give up trying to get you to see reason. You want to deny the cast-iron evidence that’s out in front of you, that’s plain.
Cast-iron evidence that the European Court of Justice doesn’t actually overrule the UK very often.
Cast-iron evidence that the referendum result was swayed by illegal data-hacking funded by illegal donations.
Cast-iron evidence that Johnson lied to the Queen about closing down Parliament.
Cast-iron evidence that Johnson’s financial backers, the ones that funded Vote Leave and gave huge donations to his leadership campaign, have staked BILLIONS of pounds on a no-deal Brexit happening.
Cast-iron evidence that no deal will be a disaster for practically everyone in the UK, not least those in Northern Ireland.
You just don’t want to believe it because it doesn’t fit with your view of the world.
There is cast iron evidence the EU did over rule our own courts.....they shouldn't have been allowed to do that at all no matter how often!! If it can be proved that there was Data hacking going on from outside Or that Johnson lied to the queen to get his own way. Then yes I agree parliament should be recalled. I wonder though what he lied about?? If it can be proved that the referendum is flawed by illegal methods then yes it should be rendered null and void and agains yes we should have another one. I don't believe in the long term it would be such a disaster as you describe it. Nobody actually knows it is speculation although I agree both the EU and we will suffer.
I am no supporter of BJ I don't like his methods and I don't like him!!! As for his backers making a lot of money from betting what is so strange about that. Do you honestly think that remainers too have not bet on that?
The point is that the same people who funded the Leave campaign also bet billions in the currency markets on shorting the pound before the referendum, and collected their winnings when the campaign they illegally funded won. That is tantamount to High Treason in my view. If you have evidence that the Remain campaign did anything similar then let’s see it please.
And the EU won’t suffer anywhere near as much as we will, because all their trade deals will still be in place, apart from the one with us. We won’t have any!