Off Topic Politics Thread

[Osvaldorama]

For the record..............I voted leave as you know...........But have said so many times I accepted at the time when we joined the concept of a common market. None of the stuff since then. If we went back to that kind of agreement with the EU then I would be happy. I have never said to leave without an agreement. However If the EU want to play hardball then leaving without a deal, is the only option. It hurts them almost as much as it hurts us. I'm not sure what the heck the problem is with the borders in NI. I personally don't have a problem with open borders to the EU. If places like Switzerland and the like can have an open border why can't we?
Oh...and for the record also ...........I am no supporter of Boris................But that doesn't mean I don't think he can't get a deal there is one to be had, but not as long as the French keep poking their noses in as I believe they would use their veto again just as they did for years before we joined...........There is nothing anyone can say that will quell my doubts...............As I say I base my feelings on dealings I have had in the past with the EU. I don't trust them...sorry you will just have to except that this man will never be persuaded otherwise

This is what I just don't understand

How many people have to lose their jobs?
How many people have to actually die from medicine shortage?
How many days worth of travel delays for essential goods?

Will you trade to solve this imaginary problem.

We can see now that these are REAL threats. I can't fathom how self centred you have to be to still want brexit at this point.

 

[Beddy]

The point is that the same people who funded the Leave campaign also bet billions in the currency markets on shorting the pound before the referendum, and collected their winnings when the campaign they illegally funded won. That is tantamount to High Treason in my view. If you have evidence that the Remain campaign did anything similar then let’s see it please.

And the EU won’t suffer anywhere near as much as we will, because all their trade deals will still be in place, apart from the one with us. We won’t have any!

If what they did is illegal as you allege then yes they should be brought to book! Do you not honestly think that some who voted remain did not do something similar maybe not Illegally as you allege.The EU is going to suffer as will prove, Ive already agreed we will suffer I just don't believe it be as much of a disaster. Sorry I don't......

 

[ChilcoSaint]

If what they did is illegal as you allege then yes they should be brought to book! Do you not honestly think that some who voted remain did not do something similar maybe not Illegally as you allege.The EU is going to suffer as will prove, Ive already agreed we will suffer I just don't believe it be as much of a disaster. Sorry I don't......

Good luck with that then.

 

[VocalMinority]

There is cast iron evidence the EU did over rule our own courts.....they shouldn't have been allowed to do that at all no matter how often!!

Can you explain why? I've listed political and economic benefits for them being able to override our courts, and it's the same system we use to override our local courts within the UK which you dont seem to disagree with.

 

[Beddy]

This is what I just don't understand

How many people have to lose their jobs?
How many people have to actually die from medicine shortage?
How many days worth of travel delays for essential goods?

Will you trade to solve this imaginary problem.

We can see now that these are REAL threats. I can't fathom how self centred you have to be to still want brexit at this point.

Hey hang on a minute....why am I being self centred because I won't agree with you guys??????? that is total rubbish. It is going to be harder than it need have been granted because of the time wasting. That is purely down to the government I guess we have not made nearly enough arrangements out side of the EU

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

The thing is that is all leavers have 'belief that it won't be a disaster'. It is all 'it will be ok, i think'. Or 'it will be fine, I believe'. I have yet to find an economist who says those words.

There are facts to show it will be a disaster.

Remaining we know won't be a disaster as we have been in the EU for 47 years....

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Hang on @Beddytare I’ve just realised something. When you write of European courts overruling UK courts are you referring to the European Court of Justice, which doesn’t allow the decisions of UK courts to be appealed, or do you mean the European Court of Human Rights, which does?

The ECJ is the EU court ruling on EU law.

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Hey hang on a minute....why am I being self centred because I won't agree with you guys??????? that is total rubbish. It is going to be harder than it need have been granted because of the time wasting. That is purely down to the government I guess we have not made nearly enough arrangements out side of the EU

Self centred because you are putting your own unique personal experience ahead of the overall good of the country.

I know Trade Unions are a good thing overall. In every personal work related incidence I had involving the trade union I was with, that union appeared to cause me more problems than benefits. One even caused me to lose my job when the company wanted to keep me on. That is my unique experience. It took no account that I entered each job in better conditions with a union than without one. So I do think that Trade Unions are very much better than no trade unions. That's my wider view, rather than a self centred one.

Clearly, being part of the EU is better for Britain, for all the reasons posters have given and a few more. Or you could have the worst case view of being "better the devil you know." Leaving the EU is a totally unecessary jump into the abyss. One that will take decades to recover from, while the wider world moves onto better standards of living. Honestly, I find the Leaver stance from everyone who continues it to totally illogical and emotive. If I could see a single shred of evidence to say that the UK will benefit from it I might just understand. Please do point some out to me.

 

[VocalMinority]

Self centred because you are putting your own unique personal experience ahead of the overall good of the country.

I know Trade Unions are a good thing overall. In every personal work related incidence I had involving the trade union I was with, that union appeared to cause me more problems than benefits. One even caused me to lose my job when the company wanted to keep me on. That is my unique experience. It took no account that I entered each job in better conditions with a union than without one. So I do think that Trade Unions are very much better than no trade unions. That's my wider view, rather than a self centred one.

Clearly, being part of the EU is better for Britain, for all the reasons posters have given and a few more. Or you could have the worst case view of being "better the devil you know." Leaving the EU is a totally unecessary jump into the abyss. One that will take decades to recover from, while the wider world moves onto better standards of living. Honestly, I find the Leaver stance from everyone who continues it to totally illogical and emotive. If I could see a single shred of evidence to say that the UK will benefit from it I might just understand. Please do point some out to me.

Don't forget benefitting people outside the UK, both our friends in the EU and outside of it too.

I'm not keen on backing ideas that help UK but hurt everyone else. The entire world would be a far worse place if every country backed those types of decisions.

 

[Archers Road]

I don't know if we would be better off I just feel we wouldn't be any worse off we would do just as well. Although I have a sneaking feeling we would get there a lot quicker with the world as a market place rather than the just the EU. I just think we are being thwarted without that freedom..........I have listened to and read a lot of reasons for staying and some I agree with but we can achieve that if the EU were willing to compromise a bit...........

The highlighted words are the problem. Vital decisions are being taken not on consideration of evidence, or on rational evaluation of fact based arguments, but on feelings.

 

[Beddy]

The highlighted words are the problem. Vital decisions are being taken not on consideration of evidence, or on rational evaluation of fact based arguments, but on feelings.

I except that but in reality when I voted leave I was not influenced by all the rubbish being bandied about.
Nothing anyone has said will persuade me to have a different view. There may be a problem to you but not to me and I have admitted many times that younger people may not understand. It is difficult for people to understand I accept that I just cannot discuss my feelings and why. I have admitted many times that I am not the best judge of the EU because of my past history with them.....what more can I say........

 

[AberdeenSaint]

The point is that the same people who funded the Leave campaign also bet billions in the currency markets on shorting the pound before the referendum, and collected their winnings when the campaign they illegally funded won. That is tantamount to High Treason in my view. If you have evidence that the Remain campaign did anything similar then let’s see it please.

And the EU won’t suffer anywhere near as much as we will, because all their trade deals will still be in place, apart from the one with us. We won’t have any!

If they did, they`d have lost a packet - a bit like the Irish burglar breaking into the bookies and losing £50 !

 

[TheSecondStain]

I except that but in reality when I voted leave I was not influenced by all the rubbish being bandied about.
Nothing anyone has said will persuade me to have a different view. There may be a problem to you but not to me and I have admitted many times that younger people may not understand. It is difficult for people to understand I accept that I just cannot discuss my feelings and why. I have admitted many times that I am not the best judge of the EU because of my past history with them.....what more can I say........

You could say that although your past personal experience of dealings with the EU has not been a good one, you could weigh up the evidence for and against for EVERYONE, not just yourself, and make an informed decision rather than a purely emotive one.

What you are saying is that you are willing to be part of a decision that lowers every person's living standards who doesn't have a finger in the 'self-interest to leave the EU' pie. That's the vast majority of the population - that was me appealing to your emotions. I'll do it once more - I'm asking you NOT to agree to lower my living standard.

Or I could ask you to read all the independent valid evidence for and against and reason the decision out, if you can.

 

[Beddy]

You could say that although your past personal experience of dealings with the EU has not been a good one, you could weigh up the evidence for and against for EVERYONE, not just yourself, and make an informed decision rather than a purely emotive one.

What you are saying is that you are willing to be part of a decision that lowers every person's living standards who doesn't have a finger in the 'self-interest to leave the EU' pie. That's the vast majority of the population - that was me appealing to your emotions. I'll do it once more - I'm asking you NOT to agree to lower my living standard.

Or I could ask you to read all the independent valid evidence for and against and reason the decision out, if you can.

Oh I can see excellent reasons for a deal. I had accepted there might be. I was pleased for the stayers when it was suggested we get one. Surely it must be evident to you guys that I am not totally against the EU. Just certain sections of it on the other hand it wouldn’t break my heart to leave based purely on personal feelings. Not all that voted leave have had my families experience with EU. My one vote didn’t make a scrap of difference and in truth I find it surprising that people had the same inclination to vote out as was everyone else. According to the polls we didn’t stand a chance at the time.

 

[VocalMinority]

I except that but in reality when I voted leave I was not influenced by all the rubbish being bandied about.
Nothing anyone has said will persuade me to have a different view. There may be a problem to you but not to me and I have admitted many times that younger people may not understand. It is difficult for people to understand I accept that I just cannot discuss my feelings and why. I have admitted many times that I am not the best judge of the EU because of my past history with them.....what more can I say........

Actually giving some indication of some actual problems with the EU that have caused you to dislike it? Doesnt have to be evidenced with your personal experience.

For example: the EU has a shortage of medicines due to pharmaceutical patents preventing cheap imports from outside the EU : good and thought provoking. Gives me areas to research.

While : EU has medicine shortages that are nothing to do with Brexit and I have my reasons to believe this and am not going to change my mind : frustrating and anger inducing. Gives me nothing to work with.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

No.10 admits that having an election on October 15th was to restrict the student vote, due to them not being able to give a permanent address until they start at Uni. More than a million new electors have registered since Johnson became the Prime Member.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...ial_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

 

[Beddy]

Actually giving some indication of some actual problems with the EU that have caused you to dislike it? Doesnt have to be evidenced with your personal experience.

For example: the EU has a shortage of medicines due to pharmaceutical patents preventing cheap imports from outside the EU : good and thought provoking. Gives me areas to research.

While : EU has medicine shortages that are nothing to do with Brexit and I have my reasons to believe this and am not going to change my mind : frustrating and anger inducing. Gives me nothing to work with.

I agree it must be frustrating you all that I will not give my main reasons. Please accept they are very, very personal to me and my family. Our experience is not likely to have been the norm and most probably not experienced by too many in this country. Although I don't know that as fact. It was an unusual situation...but non the less it happened.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I agree it must be frustrating you all that I will not give my main reasons. Please accept they are very, very personal to me and my family. Our experience is not likely to have been the norm and most probably not experienced by too many in this country. Although I don't know that as fact. It was an unusual situation...but non the less it happened.

To be honest, that is fair enough and I will apologise for venting my frustration out on you. Everyone has their own reasons for voting and a personal one is as valid as any.

My real anger/rage is at people like my parents, who have no reason to dislike the Eu aside from believing everything they read in the daily mail. To those sort of people, which is the large majority, I will never forgive them if no deal is as bad as yellowhammer suggests.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I agree it must be frustrating you all that I will not give my main reasons. Please accept they are very, very personal to me and my family. Our experience is not likely to have been the norm and most probably not experienced by too many in this country. Although I don't know that as fact. It was an unusual situation...but non the less it happened.

I sort of take what you say. However, that is like me saying in the past I was chased down the road and then beaten up by guys with shaven heads and now I won't ever work with bald people. Sounds ridiculous, but that is what it sounds like to me. They are personal reasons and I accept that, but is a bad experience that as you admit above isn't repeated to everyone.

 

[SaintinSerbia]

I agree it must be frustrating you all that I will not give my main reasons. Please accept they are very, very personal to me and my family. Our experience is not likely to have been the norm and most probably not experienced by too many in this country. Although I don't know that as fact. It was an unusual situation...but non the less it happened.

if you were writing a suspense thriller ..... you'd be the Stephen King of not606 ... if there's no twist at the end?