Off Topic Politics Thread
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Even if Nissan's move isn't directly related to Brexit, it still calls into question the wisdom of leaving EU. You are losing a bunch of jobs that are not because immigrants took them, or because the EU makes it too difficult for companies to do business. Furthermore, if Nissan is leaving then perhaps you don't have the leverage you think. Right? Because the whole deal was that England was so economically powerful, they could get better deals on their own than they could under the EU. But here's a company that has no qualms about leaving and focusing their efforts on different markets.
In a way, you could say it's unfair to blame Nissan leaving on Brexit. But in another way, it's completely fair. Because this wasn't supposed to happen if England voted to leave. Everything was supposed to turn out incredibly awesome. This is what happens when you lie and over promise. If you promise on **** you can't deliver, then you will get criticized when your lies are discovered.
I'm sure they did vote. There just weren't enough of them. And in fact probably some of them voted to Leave. A vote to leave the EU is all THAT crazy. I mean, there's an exit clause, you can use it. But to vote because of the lies that Boris Johnson and Farage told is not very reasonable. They're just liars and nasty people, and you saw how quick they exited when they actually won because they knew the mess they'd just created.
People like to think that everyone who voted on their side is reasonable and everyone who votes against it was not. But most people are idiots on both sides. In the US, I'd say that at least 75% of the voters really have no grasp of the issues and don't pay any attention. That's why it's so easy to influence them. They don't follow politics, they just watch Fox News or CNN or read the Guardian or Telegraph and take their opinions from there. Now with social media, it's even worse.
Things are probably a bit better over there. Maybe only half the voters are fools. But it still leads to bad policy decisions.
If Nissan or any other manufacturer of anything in the EU says "we're not selling much in the EU, we may as well go back home and concentrate on bigger markets" that can't be blamed on Brexit.
The points you are making are entirely separate. "This wasn't supposed to happen if England voted to leave." What wasn't? A global slowdown? European economies on their knees again? The European market being seen as small fry and not worth it to large companies that are choosing to focus on markets they can sell in?
You can call this circumstance, you are trying to link 2 events. The reality is that Europe is not this big mega market it pretends to be. If Brexit had not happened that would not have made a difference to this change in market conditions where Europe is still trying flog a dead horse with tariff walls around it protecting it's old world setup.
We can't keep on blaming Brexit for slow growth, for trade moving when the reality is that Europe itself is stuck in a deadzone of the past, proclaiming how free and great it is yet erecting vast tariff worlds to protect its product while calling Trump out for doing the same.
The whole blaming everything on Brexit defeats the remainer's argument, which while I don't agree with has some merit at least, because they just look stupid when they try and ignore market conditions, real world changes, real world growth stagnation within the EU blaming anything that happens in the UK on Brexit as if the UK was in some bubble where anything that happens must be because of Brexit. If so then maybe the growth we still have, no matter how small, while the EU stagnates again is because of Brexit?
Most of this has been brought on by the EU and European heads of state playing the short game, protecting the EU as a product rather than evolving it and harping on about growth that is only brought about by printing money. Growth that would actually have meant a recession a few years old if they had not been printing money. It is not growth. It is amazing how the UK has managed to grow when it stopped QE as a constant measure a long time ago while people bang on about growth in the Eurozone that was make believe growth purely created by the ECB and their 2.5trn blast of made up money.
If we keep on blaming Brexit we are up **** creek. These companies are leaving because we (and the EU model) is done. Sooner or later the whole of Europe is going to need a major overhaul or it will be dead and buried on the world stage but no, our governments are more worried about their population getting angry about not being able to live the instagram life and thus there isn't any money to spend on the future. Just snaky words about looking after the future when the future will have nothing to look forward to as this juggernaut of regression still protecting outdated products.
But hey, in 20 years we can still blame anything on Brexit. If that Brexit hadn;t happened, yadda, yadda, while we ignore that the whole of Europe is in the same ropey state.
But if you rephrase that sentence, it's pretty much exactly how I feel about Brexiters.
"We can't keep on blaming EU for slow growth, for trade moving when the reality is that England itself is stuck in a deadzone of the past, proclaiming how free and great it is yet erecting vast tariff worlds to protect its product while calling Trump out for doing the same."
You can't blame everything that's wrong on the EU. So when it turns out many of the problems have nothing to do with EU, then it's only fair people call you out on it.
The Leaver beef against the EU was never that we need more global trade and EU trade protectionism didn't work. It was that it was TOO global and TOO free. It wasn't an argument rejecting regionalism for globalism, it was rejecting regionalism for nationalism.
The theory was that the UK was better than the rest of the EU, and they were the ones dragging you down. Now they're finding out how wrong they were.
"We can't keep on blaming EU for slow growth, for trade moving when the reality is that England itself is stuck in a deadzone of the past, proclaiming how free and great it is yet erecting vast tariff worlds to protect its product while calling Trump out for doing the same."
You can't blame everything that's wrong on the EU. So when it turns out many of the problems have nothing to do with EU, then it's only fair people call you out on it.
The Leaver beef against the EU was never that we need more global trade and EU trade protectionism didn't work. It was that it was TOO global and TOO free. It wasn't an argument rejecting regionalism for globalism, it was rejecting regionalism for nationalism.
The theory was that the UK was better than the rest of the EU, and they were the ones dragging you down. Now they're finding out how wrong they were.
Did I hear things correctly? JC is going to find agreement from sectors, apart from the DUP and ERG, of the HoC to find a solution that was obviously far beyond the reach of Theresa May. It will probably be a Brexit, but an orderly one, and one that keeps us in the Customs Unión and preserves the sanctity of the Good Friday Agreement.
Why Theresa May didn´t follow this approach is beyond me. I suspect if this is the case she will have her resignation ready.
Why Theresa May didn´t follow this approach is beyond me. I suspect if this is the case she will have her resignation ready.
The points you are making are entirely separate. "This wasn't supposed to happen if England voted to leave." What wasn't? A global slowdown? European economies on their knees again? The European market being seen as small fry and not worth it to large companies that are choosing to focus on markets they can sell in?
You can call this circumstance, you are trying to link 2 events. The reality is that Europe is not this big mega market it pretends to be. If Brexit had not happened that would not have made a difference to this change in market conditions where Europe is still trying flog a dead horse with tariff walls around it protecting it's old world setup.
We can't keep on blaming Brexit for slow growth, for trade moving when the reality is that Europe itself is stuck in a deadzone of the past, proclaiming how free and great it is yet erecting vast tariff worlds to protect its product while calling Trump out for doing the same.
The whole blaming everything on Brexit defeats the remainer's argument, which while I don't agree with has some merit at least, because they just look stupid when they try and ignore market conditions, real world changes, real world growth stagnation within the EU blaming anything that happens in the UK on Brexit as if the UK was in some bubble where anything that happens must be because of Brexit. If so then maybe the growth we still have, no matter how small, while the EU stagnates again is because of Brexit?
Most of this has been brought on by the EU and European heads of state playing the short game, protecting the EU as a product rather than evolving it and harping on about growth that is only brought about by printing money. Growth that would actually have meant a recession a few years old if they had not been printing money. It is not growth. It is amazing how the UK has managed to grow when it stopped QE as a constant measure a long time ago while people bang on about growth in the Eurozone that was make believe growth purely created by the ECB and their 2.5trn blast of made up money.
If we keep on blaming Brexit we are up **** creek. These companies are leaving because we (and the EU model) is done. Sooner or later the whole of Europe is going to need a major overhaul or it will be dead and buried on the world stage but no, our governments are more worried about their population getting angry about not being able to live the instagram life and thus there isn't any money to spend on the future. Just snaky words about looking after the future when the future will have nothing to look forward to as this juggernaut of regression still protecting outdated products.
But hey, in 20 years we can still blame anything on Brexit. If that Brexit hadn;t happened, yadda, yadda, while we ignore that the whole of Europe is in the same ropey state.[/QUOTE]
Imp please, never mind Nissan in a changing world for the automotive industry, where's the list of benefits financial, social or cultural that leaving will bring? It's been asked for many times on many forums. Explain what you mean with sources and links by "the EU model is done" and what would replace it or how the UK could better do it alone. How about your political discussions with those in high places? Any eureka moments, glimpses of the brave new world you can share?
Jab
You can call this circumstance, you are trying to link 2 events. The reality is that Europe is not this big mega market it pretends to be. If Brexit had not happened that would not have made a difference to this change in market conditions where Europe is still trying flog a dead horse with tariff walls around it protecting it's old world setup.
We can't keep on blaming Brexit for slow growth, for trade moving when the reality is that Europe itself is stuck in a deadzone of the past, proclaiming how free and great it is yet erecting vast tariff worlds to protect its product while calling Trump out for doing the same.
The whole blaming everything on Brexit defeats the remainer's argument, which while I don't agree with has some merit at least, because they just look stupid when they try and ignore market conditions, real world changes, real world growth stagnation within the EU blaming anything that happens in the UK on Brexit as if the UK was in some bubble where anything that happens must be because of Brexit. If so then maybe the growth we still have, no matter how small, while the EU stagnates again is because of Brexit?
Most of this has been brought on by the EU and European heads of state playing the short game, protecting the EU as a product rather than evolving it and harping on about growth that is only brought about by printing money. Growth that would actually have meant a recession a few years old if they had not been printing money. It is not growth. It is amazing how the UK has managed to grow when it stopped QE as a constant measure a long time ago while people bang on about growth in the Eurozone that was make believe growth purely created by the ECB and their 2.5trn blast of made up money.
If we keep on blaming Brexit we are up **** creek. These companies are leaving because we (and the EU model) is done. Sooner or later the whole of Europe is going to need a major overhaul or it will be dead and buried on the world stage but no, our governments are more worried about their population getting angry about not being able to live the instagram life and thus there isn't any money to spend on the future. Just snaky words about looking after the future when the future will have nothing to look forward to as this juggernaut of regression still protecting outdated products.
But hey, in 20 years we can still blame anything on Brexit. If that Brexit hadn;t happened, yadda, yadda, while we ignore that the whole of Europe is in the same ropey state.[/QUOTE]
Imp please, never mind Nissan in a changing world for the automotive industry, where's the list of benefits financial, social or cultural that leaving will bring? It's been asked for many times on many forums. Explain what you mean with sources and links by "the EU model is done" and what would replace it or how the UK could better do it alone. How about your political discussions with those in high places? Any eureka moments, glimpses of the brave new world you can share?
Jab
Just fyi. The Japanese trade deal means increased efficient for creating the car in japan for Japanese manufacturers with their main plant there due to centralisation. and allows for cheaper export to Europe. by the same token it allows European manufactures in increase their efficiency in exporting to japan with centralisation in Europe. This is what Nissan meant by consolidation in its statement. This creates a comparative net gain (reduced loss in this case) in jobs for both parties due to increased efficiency even if jobs are lost locally due to the transition. The improved efficiency also mean they can make products more cheaply which benefits the consumers of both parties (which will benefit us unless we have tariffs to raise it back up)
Of course we are no longer in the EU so we don't gain the benefit of this, just the loss.
Of course we are no longer in the EU so we don't gain the benefit of this, just the loss.
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It also protects workers rights, and is something for which the EU would probably extend the leave date, as they have already indicated, following a meeting with Corbyn, that his proposal is something they could work with.
y
Let´s hope he can work some magic very quickly as an agreed deal needs to be in place for the EU to extend Article 50, or so it seems.
Let´s hope he can work some magic very quickly as an agreed deal needs to be in place for the EU to extend Article 50, or so it seems.
Who is the replace her in the Conservative party. They need to find a candidate who can unite that party again and that isn´t going to happen until Brexit is resolved. They need to look outside the immediate party, and recruit a European conservative. Alberto Rivera of Ciudadnos would be good for them. And Central Office wants to get its act together and remove the cáncer of ERG that could well take over the soul of the party.
Sunday would be perfect timing!Ides.
An appropriate time to assassinate the leader.
Step forward Brutas.
It is very hard for you to understand what I mean. It is very hard for each side of this argument to understand each other. You talk about globalism as for example UK just being a base for global companies to setup in. All investment coming from outside. What you are talking about here is not what I call globalism. Who is in control of it? The companies that jump around the world. Globalism is just a term for business getting their own way and f***ing people, countries regions over. Who cares, its all about the desperate theoretical money grab. The growth and GDP figures. It isn't anything at all in reality to do with the actual people it pretends to be such a carer about. Just short term headlines based on financials that normal people don;t even see because those taxes they paraded are then pushed into cronies, fake shell companies, NGOs and anything else they can filter the money to instead of actually doing what they pretend they want to do.
This is nothing to do with just the UK and not the EU. It is the whole of the political, business and ruling class across the board.
Your argument holds no weight at all. You can moan all you like about people being angry and it being a protest vote and you can even question their analysis but tn the end their analysis isn't that far off the money. they are being f***ed over by short termists on the make and companies that will jump all over the place every 10 years for the best deal. That deal may not just be financial. It could be technical, infrastructural etc. What do we and others have in Europe? History. Thats it. the infrastructure everywhere is outdated. The products we have built a hundred years of dominance on are now on the way out. All those massive global companies? How many of them that will survive into the future are British? How many of the big globals that are European will survive?
Do you think 20, 30, 50 years from now Germany will still be boasting about their auto industry? Or will Japan/China have taken over the market? Do you think European banks will dominate forever? What are the EU and European governments doing to support the future? Nothing. They are busy trying to protect what they have. The only thing they do about the future is green policy. policy that is a pure political lie because in reality they are still promoting this great life with houses full of as much electrics as possible, every house with a car (electric cars will still need charging.) The only investment in the future is the green policy. Everything else is just for now. keep things ticking along and hope for the best.
You can keep pulling soundbites out if you want but it is a fact that the EU is a hindrance to anyone that might want to actually look to the future. It most definitely is not forward looking unless they can sound nice about green stuff in one speech with nobody batting an eyelid when they promote more flights, more cars etc.
You look through the prism of the (supposedly) liberal mind. The prism that is just annoyed with what happens yet does not analyze why it happens. Trump happened because the "liberals" thought they could blag the people forever and keep on syphoning off the money. Same with Brexit (UK governments and the EU doing the same.) This whole globalisation model sold as something for all, freedom for the people yet it is about nothing more than fooling you and I into welcoming the next big company to come and f*** us over. These companies are the new version of the colonists that we supposedly now hate. They come, and mine all the minerals from your land and then once they've wasted it or it is costing too much to extract more they pi** off and do it somewhere else. Hurrah for the new imperialists form Davos.
You can argue all you like about Trump/Brexit/Liga being the wrong solutions but the reasons they are are real. And the reason they have happened is because those that are supposed to be the carers, the guardians have spent decades trying to tell people that there is no problem, that they are imagining things, and recently telling them they are not allowed to be X, not allowed to think Y and not allowed to do Z. Deviation from the course is outlawed. You must be assimilated.
The farce in parliament today? We have a vote not to allow no deal? Another non binding vote. no deal is not a thing. It is a default. The whole narrative is designed to whip up the hopes of remainers with talk of extensions, 2nd referendums, no deal off the table. Virtually all of this ends up with destruction politically. IT is a joke. Not caused by these "orrible" leavers or a band of Tories or stupid David Cameron. It was caused by the decades of ignorance by certain people (mostly in powerful positions) that they could just ignore people forever and never actually deal with anything if it was a deviation from the accepted path of Davos thinking.
Even on this thread there are people blaming Cameron and the Tories as if this subject would have gone away. They (all politicians) would have just ignored the concerns and kept on spinning to earn their mates money. It would never have gone away. Politics needs to change. not to be reactionary as it has become, reactionary only when boiling point is reached. It needs to become pro-active and actually try to understand humanity rather than just palm off the subject while talking about it. Stupid or not the electorate have 1 vote each. It isn't means tested on brainpower (although I daresay many would like to score a vote on how liberal you are.) Everybody needs to be listened to not ignored.
Anyway 16 days to go. tick, tock. not long for people to see just how much their vote (and thus they themselves) are worth to those in charge of things.
Why? So you can denounce them because it doesn't fit your liberal mind? Europe is stuck in a timewarp. It really is that simple and they can;t see it.
My discussions are not really with people "in high places." Historians, political commentariat etc. It is pretty similar to here. There is one side that can only see the now, react to the now and there are others that know we have to change things but as to how or what, that is a worthless argument because it comes up against the same brick wall that the liberal minds (even those that think they are socialists but are following this same model as if it is gospel) refuse to accept is not working and will not work.
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This is short term thinking in reality. We are basing an "EU net gain" on the current situation. In 10 year's time will Japan or the far east still want to buy EU cars in the same volumes? It is based on how things are now with a belief that "it will always be this way."
The Nissan factor in that article is much more that they only sold 5,400 of that model in the whole of Europe last year!!! It just is not worth having a plant building it in the UK or in Europe for that kind of volume.
Your analysis of what the deal should mean is correct. In reality do you really believe that in 10-20 years time there is going to be that much going the other way? Or will it be massively outweighed by Japanese stuff coming our way?
And yes it will make things cheaper for us..........but if we aren't making anything then we won;t have the money to buy these cheaper goods.
Now the comeback will be reverting again to the Brexit has caused car jobs to leave the UK ignoring the reality. It is a never ending cycle of people blaming Brexit, ignoring the real reasons, then blaming Brexiteers and leavers for losing jobs that have actually been lost because of those in power's inability to look any further forward than a few years.
We've just had ten years of the globalists making a massive problem with their attempts to make more and more money for themselves, which was then shouldered by the taxpaper once with the bailouts and then again with all the QE making us even poorer.
What exactly are we going to sell to the Japanese in these deals? French cheese made at a loss paid for out of EU funding?