Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

oops double post

 

[King Grimlock]

that was an actual "WOW" moment on Question time. "Hands up who thinks HS2 should go ahead?" No-one (other than the chap from Milton Keynes.

Wonder if the government will pay any attention to it?

Never should have started it, Could've used the money and infrastructure to connect Devon and Cornwall to the rest of the U.K, Currently there's one line in and out which is always at danger of being swept into the sea, (Dawlish is lovely by the way) I have family in Poole and live in Plymouth, The journey by train takes 5.5 hours and up to 3 transfers. And my experiences is in no way unique, its being repeated in "forgotten" parts of the U.K.

 

[shoot_spiderman]

Can;t speak for benditlikebanana but I don't think it is genetic nor anything "directly" to do with ethnicity. It think ethnicity is just one tool that influential people use to make sure that these attitudes are nurtured.
There may well be a problem here but if people with influence (from within the community or outside) keep telling a demographic that there is a huge problem then eventually they will believe it. Whether it is true or not. I have said on many subjects (not just this subject) the same thing.
Rather than deal with those actually in poverty there seems to be more interest in increasing the demographic and dilute what you can actually achieve.
Rather than deal with racism or discrimination they do the same.
And you are right about going into hiding however, I disagree with the phrase "before it disappear" because these things will never disappear. They can be minimised by attitudes evolving but they can never be eradicated because there will always be that minority that are of that mind.
I think a lot of things we could deal with these days are distracted from the actual problem by others that spend much more time trying to widen the target demographic of the problem which then stops anything from working because when they try and widen the demographic they eventually have a much larger group of people that are "affected" and thus it looks much more of a problem within that demographic because of the "new" numbers.
I suppose you could pin the Brexit result on this as well if you want to think about it in that way. It is the same across all politics these days. The name on these policies is "progressive" but the reality is that politically they are not trying to achieve what the title on the policy says, they are trying to fill up the target group with as many people as possible in order to herd votes/funds/agendas in a particular direction.

In brief:
My mention of genetics was provocative

Disadvantage is real if you’re black and or poor. Dont get diverted by others agendas because we end up not talking about the problem. Whatever anyone says there’s a problem that needs addressing and you’re in danger of being associated with those who say it’s ALL exaggerated

 

[shoot_spiderman]

i do not think any kind of thought is genetic, its how the kid is bought up, 95% of British Muslims have children that identify as Muslim, 95% of Southampton fans have kids that are initially Saints fans until they decide that want to support Utd, kids want to please their parents so fall into line with their parents.
Black youth problems with the police is fairly new in England,past generations had a respect for the police, but todays youth, white and arab as well are now in a much more aggressive environment so they are more likely to exposed to police.
The growth of gangs, drugs and music making thug life look like a career move.
my mate was stationed out of Peckham, which was bad enough, then they disbanded the police station in the next borough and gave it to Peckham. Thankfully pistols are hard to get or the murder rate would go through the roof

Gang life is clearly a viable career choice for these kids. The question is why are they not choosing less risky careers. It’s as though they don’t feel those options are open to them

I think you’ll find past generations of black people had more of a fear of the police rather than respect

 

[Missing Lambo]

that was an actual "WOW" moment on Question time. "Hands up who thinks HS2 should go ahead?" No-one (other than the chap from Milton Keynes.

Wonder if the government will pay any attention to it?

It was a good moment, and an opinion with which I concur. I did find it funny to think of the NIMBYs of Ayelesbury suddenly having "empathy" with us folks up north. The argument that the money should be spent improving the transport infrastructure in the North of England is a good one, but I did get the feeling the main argument was that they didn't want it so someone else could have the money. Had they wanted it the North probably wouldn't have got much of a mention - apart from the Wigan MP, of course. Lest you think I am simply resorting to sterotypes, I lived in Aylesbury once. Only for a year, as I was then released for good behaviour. My experience is that most people wouldn't have found the North with a compass!

 

[StJabbo]

but it's a funny old world, I started work in a factory. I joined the union. Within 10 years I was promoted to top management. I still went to the union meetings. The shop floor said "why is the management in our meeting?". The directors said "why are you in their meeting?" ah **** it. I took redundancy

I did an apprenticeship at a government research establishment in the '60s became a shop steward and made enough of a nuisance of myself to be offered a new career in personnel management. I declined, left and made a good living in the oil industry. I was a bit of an eye opener to see some of the deals done by the TU suits.

 

[Archers Road]

Never should have started it, Could've used the money and infrastructure to connect Devon and Cornwall to the rest of the U.K, Currently theirs one line in and out with is always at danger of being swept into the sea, (Dawlish is lovely by the way) I have family in Poole and live in Plymouth, The journey by train takes 5.5 hours and up to 3 transfers. And my experiences is in no way unique, its being repeated in "forgotten" parts of the U.K.

We had some wonderful caravan holidays in Dawlish Warren, when I was a kid in the sixties. Then, thanks to Thomas Cook and the advent of the package deal, it became cheaper and quicker to fly to Benidorm (where it never rains in summer).

 

[ImpSaint]

In brief:
My mention of genetics was provocative

Disadvantage is real if you’re black and or poor. Dont get diverted by others agendas because we end up not talking about the problem. Whatever anyone says there’s a problem that needs addressing and you’re in danger of being associated with those who say it’s ALL exaggerated

You are misreading me. I agree there is a problem. What I am talking about is that there are politicians, groups with vested interests or an agenda that take that problem and extend their scope to try and "capture" more than those that they should be helping which then ends up making it much much harder to deal with the problem they were supposed to be trying to address.

And then over time because this much larger group has constantly been told that they are part of this group then the group itself starts to believe the problem includes them and thus resentment builds because now it is such a large group.

I have long talked about this. Diluting the help that should have been focused on those that really do have the problem, no matter what the problem is, whatever subject.

I am not saying the problem itself is exaggerated. I am saying that certain groups or agendas are taking a problem but then trying to expand their target to make out more people are affected. the problem is still there. they aren't exaggerating the problem itself, they are just trying to develop more "customers / clients" because there is so much money involved or it is politically / strategically advantageous.

 

[ImpSaint]

It was a good moment, and an opinion with which I concur. I did find it funny to think of the NIMBYs of Ayelesbury suddenly having "empathy" with us folks up north. The argument that the money should be spent improving the transport infrastructure in the North of England is a good one, but I did get the feeling the main argument was that they didn't want it so someone else could have the money. Had they wanted it the North probably wouldn't have got much of a mention - apart from the Wigan MP, of course. Lest you think I am simply resorting to sterotypes, I lived in Aylesbury once. Only for a year, as I was then released for good behaviour. My experience is that most people wouldn't have found the North with a compass!

The problem is though that all these projects are pushed "because folks at the top think it is what people need or want."

Here in Lincoln (and a lot of Lincolnshire) there is constant talk from politicians about our trainlines still not being electrified. The people aren't bothered though. They want reliable trains that run on time. And we have that. Normal folks in this area don;t even think about the trains. they are quite happy with the service here.

Three is also a constant push and promotion of any progress made towards a direct link with London (once electrified.) Promoted without any thought about the folks of Lincoln that it would open Lincoln up to be a viable commuter town.......for people to work in London. It amazes us that politicians think this is a selling point because IF that happened then house prices would rise. This in a city where house prices are much lower than down South but so are the wages / salaries.

These politicians just don't seem to realise that these things they see as key selling points are not seen the same way as the locals. That what they praise as being a good thing are actually seen as a bad thing by most.

They are so focused on how long a train journey takes, how quickly you can get to London, whether the trains are electrified etc. If I want to go to Manchester Airport (or London) then yes I will have to change once at least to get onto the electrified lines. Sometimes twice. So what? will it get me there? will it be on time and get me there on time? That's what I care about. Never had a problem.

The obsession about HS2 is nothing to do with the North. It is all about a high speed line to take people from along the line into London to work. And of course a vehicle to push billions of state funds into their favoured friends pockets.

If people want to work in London then they know how long it takes to get there. It is their choice when they take the job. That £100bn could completely eradicate homelessness from the UK for a generation at least. Much better spent that way.

 

[StJabbo]

Led by donkeys @bydonkeys well worth a look at the billboard posters being put up by these chaps. Brexit predictions of our leaders.

 

[Saints_Alive]

We had some wonderful caravan holidays in Dawlish Warren, when I was a kid in the sixties. Then, thanks to Thomas Cook and the advent of the package deal, it became cheaper and quicker to fly to Benidorm (where it never rains in summer).

I lived just down the road in Teignmouth in the 60s (moved to Southampton in '69) and had the whole Summer on the beach...
The Summers then used to go on forever...very happy days.

 

[Missing Lambo]

The problem is though that all these projects are pushed "because folks at the top think it is what people need or want."

Here in Lincoln (and a lot of Lincolnshire) there is constant talk from politicians about our trainlines still not being electrified. The people aren't bothered though. They want reliable trains that run on time. And we have that. Normal folks in this area don;t even think about the trains. they are quite happy with the service here.

Three is also a constant push and promotion of any progress made towards a direct link with London (once electrified.) Promoted without any thought about the folks of Lincoln that it would open Lincoln up to be a viable commuter town.......for people to work in London. It amazes us that politicians think this is a selling point because IF that happened then house prices would rise. This in a city where house prices are much lower than down South but so are the wages / salaries.

These politicians just don't seem to realise that these things they see as key selling points are not seen the same way as the locals. That what they praise as being a good thing are actually seen as a bad thing by most.

They are so focused on how long a train journey takes, how quickly you can get to London, whether the trains are electrified etc. If I want to go to Manchester Airport (or London) then yes I will have to change once at least to get onto the electrified lines. Sometimes twice. So what? will it get me there? will it be on time and get me there on time? That's what I care about. Never had a problem.

The obsession about HS2 is nothing to do with the North. It is all about a high speed line to take people from along the line into London to work. And of course a vehicle to push billions of state funds into their favoured friends pockets.

If people want to work in London then they know how long it takes to get there. It is their choice when they take the job. That £100bn could completely eradicate homelessness from the UK for a generation at least. Much better spent that way.

Great post. You are so right about those local trains. We have a fast train to Euston in Chester. It now takes only slightly more time than the fastest train to Manchester! We now have London commuters, and to add to the issue of prrice inflation a number of companies decided to re-locate here and bought London staff with them. These people discovered that the sale price of their two bedroom terrace in Londonnow bought them North Wales. So young people in attractive places like Llangollen have discovered that a small cottage there will require a mortgage of about 30x their income.

Don't you just love the way these things are thought through!

 

[ImpSaint]

Great post. You are so right about those local trains. We have a fast train to Euston in Chester. It now takes only slightly more time than the fastest train to Manchester! We now have London commuters, and to add to the issue of prrice inflation a number of companies decided to re-locate here and bought London staff with them. These people discovered that the sale price of their two bedroom terrace in Londonnow bought them North Wales. So young people in attractive places like Llangollen have discovered that a small cottage there will require a mortgage of about 30x their income.

Don't you just love the way these things are thought through!

The main difference would be so easy to research if only they bothered.

If you asked a councillor or local politician what improvements could be made to Lincoln(shire) train services they would focus on direct trains, high speed to major cities and electrification.

If they asked a resident of Lincoln(shire) they would moan about the direct trains we already have (that politicians want more of) that don't stop at all the village stations anymore.

 

[ImpSaint]

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[VocalMinority]

The problem is though that all these projects are pushed "because folks at the top think it is what people need or want."

Here in Lincoln (and a lot of Lincolnshire) there is constant talk from politicians about our trainlines still not being electrified. The people aren't bothered though. They want reliable trains that run on time. And we have that. Normal folks in this area don;t even think about the trains. they are quite happy with the service here.

Three is also a constant push and promotion of any progress made towards a direct link with London (once electrified.) Promoted without any thought about the folks of Lincoln that it would open Lincoln up to be a viable commuter town.......for people to work in London. It amazes us that politicians think this is a selling point because IF that happened then house prices would rise. This in a city where house prices are much lower than down South but so are the wages / salaries.

These politicians just don't seem to realise that these things they see as key selling points are not seen the same way as the locals. That what they praise as being a good thing are actually seen as a bad thing by most.

They are so focused on how long a train journey takes, how quickly you can get to London, whether the trains are electrified etc. If I want to go to Manchester Airport (or London) then yes I will have to change once at least to get onto the electrified lines. Sometimes twice. So what? will it get me there? will it be on time and get me there on time? That's what I care about. Never had a problem.

The obsession about HS2 is nothing to do with the North. It is all about a high speed line to take people from along the line into London to work. And of course a vehicle to push billions of state funds into their favoured friends pockets.

If people want to work in London then they know how long it takes to get there. It is their choice when they take the job. That £100bn could completely eradicate homelessness from the UK for a generation at least. Much better spent that way.

This isn't a social project, it's an economic one. The idea is it provides a return on investment so your arguments are somewhat off base. IIRC, The government were arguing you would see a £2.5 return on every £1 invested(which I'm pretty sure is bollocks). So if you invested £100b you would then have £250b to spend on ending homelessness or reopening unprofitable train stations or w/e else you think the public want.

So rather than focusing on the social impacts, which are really only side effects, like you are it would be better to focus on the really poor planning and budgetting and questioning its return on investment and whether there are better investments they could make.

 

[ImpSaint]

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[ImpSaint]

This isn't a social project, it's an economic one. The idea is it provides a return on investment so your arguments are somewhat off base. IIRC, The government were arguing you would see a £2.5 return on every £1 invested(which I'm pretty sure is bollocks). So if you invested £100b you would then have £250b to spend on ending homelessness or reopening unprofitable train stations or w/e else you think the public want.

So rather than focusing on the social impacts, which are really only side effects, like you are it would be better to focus on the really poor planning and budgetting and questioning its return on investment and whether there are better investments they could make.

My beef with HS2 isn't so much to do with anything other than it being sold as being for the North when it is solely designed to bring people into London and allied with Crossrail and Crossrail2 to shift those it brings in to their workplace. Lord Adonis' brainchild but then he has a lot of vested interests in the projects seeing as he was on the lobbys of them, then on the consultations of them and now on the boards of those involved as well.

As for the economics vs social part, yes I understand that. Despite the "dodgy numbers" are you happy for the economic model to be everybody earning money in London and bringing it up North?

Is it a "social" argument to prefer that the policies should try and take business to other places and not just London?

Rather than explain that kind of speculate to accumulate part to me it would be more useful directed at Ocasia Cortez in the US who seems to think not giving Amazon tax breaks on money they haven't earnt yet means there are billions now available to spend elsewhere.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

Gang life is clearly a viable career choice for these kids. The question is why are they not choosing less risky careers. It’s as though they don’t feel those options are open to them

I think you’ll find past generations of black people had more of a fear of the police rather than respect

i would not say fear, generally the black population from the 50,60and into the 70s commited a lower % of crimes than they do now so stayed off the police radar. if you are only .05 of the population then you kinda stand out if you are a criminal.
I have fair hair, green eyes and pink skin so i would be picked up by police over here in Colombia in a New York second if i did something stupid

 

[VocalMinority]

My beef with HS2 isn't so much to do with anything other than it being sold as being for the North when it is solely designed to bring people into London and allied with Crossrail and Crossrail2 to shift those it brings in to their workplace. Lord Adonis' brainchild but then he has a lot of vested interests in the projects seeing as he was on the lobbys of them, then on the consultations of them and now on the boards of those involved as well.

As for the economics vs social part, yes I understand that. Despite the "dodgy numbers" are you happy for the economic model to be everybody earning money in London and bringing it up North?

Is it a "social" argument to prefer that the policies should try and take business to other places and not just London?

Rather than explain that kind of speculate to accumulate part to me it would be more useful directed at Ocasia Cortez in the US who seems to think not giving Amazon tax breaks on money they haven't earnt yet means there are billions now available to spend elsewhere.

Actually decentralization is prevalent currently so this is wrong.
Benefits to doing both though.

Centralisation is more efficient, it creates more jobs and generates more income while decentralisation allows for more specialisation of the product for the local market.

 

[ImpSaint]

Actually decentralization is prevalent currently so this is wrong.
Benefits to doing both though.

Centralisation is more efficient, it creates more jobs and generates more income while decentralisation allows for more specialisation of the product for the local market.

It is prevalent in words but no actions in reality.