Off Topic Politics Thread

[The Ides of March]

Of course it can be argued definitively that Brexit has slowed the economy! You are the first person I’ve seen to even try and deny it.

I think your previous post may have hit the nail on the head as to why I disagree with you so fundamentally.

You said (I’m paraphrasing as I’m on my phone so can’t scroll back a page) ‘to some people there are things more important than money’.

That is where i disagree completely. To me, when voting on a decision about the future, money is my main motivating factor. I want the country to be as prosperous as possible, as I believe more problems can be solved the more wealthy we are as a nation. I believe it is sheer folly to do otherwise and let emotions cloud that.

I do agree, however, that we have debated this a lot more successfully than parliament

How come on this board, most are Remainers with two exceptions. Why did the country not follow our lead?

 

[Beddy]

Osvaldo...........We surely have debated it more than parliament that's for sure...........Although in truth the debate has been a little more one sided. The only people that are really causing a down turn in our economics is the MP's. Quite frankly most of them wanted to stay in the EU. May has made too many mistakes. The Labour Party thinks all it has to do is make a nuisance of itself and it will soon be in power. The Lib Dems just want to try and get a few more voters voting for them. The vast majority of MP's seemingly have forgotten what they are supposed to be doing.
It doesn't matter which party you vote for (IMO) You have to acknowledge it wouldn't matter who was negotiating IE Labour or the conservative the whole thing would still be a mess. Corbyn, May or whoever........Would have been on a hiding to nothing.
I think May will call for another referendum but it won't be what everyone wants. I think it most likely to be an Except the deal or leave.......I don't think there is an alternative.
I also think a change in our constitution may be needed to avoid the kind of thing we are going through again if ever it is needed. I'll leave the percentage needed IE 5%-6% or whatever for it to be carried.
I know a lot of you think we should stay as is your right. You mainly have seen my views on the subject. The truth is no matter which way things go in the future None of us are truly going to know which side would have been better off. Naturally the winner will.........When we joined all those years ago.....I said then this would end in tears.
In one of my eldest son's schools there is a time capsule that will eventually prove that I said that, which was buried just after we fully joined. Although to be fair most disagreed with me then so I was just as isolated as I am on here.
I won't be bullied into things and Im afraid that is how I see the EU with their negotiating. There is little doubt now that things are going to hit us hard.......trust me though it is going to hit the EU just as hard if not harder. Especially if we pull out with a no deal!!
No I don't have any figures or charts to back up what I feel and I certainly don't have a crystal ball like some of you seem to......just a gut feeling after listening to a few of my European contacts I'm still in touch with. Especially when they have to find the Billions that the UK used to contribute. Not immediate maybe but quite soon after mark my words........

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Osvaldo...........We surely have debated it more than parliament that's for sure...........Although in truth the debate has been a little more one sided. The only people that are really causing a down turn in our economics is the MP's. Quite frankly most of them wanted to stay in the EU. May has made too many mistakes. The Labour Party thinks all it has to do is make a nuisance of itself and it will soon be in power. The Lib Dems just want to try and get a few more voters voting for them. The vast majority of MP's seemingly have forgotten what they are supposed to be doing.
It doesn't matter which party you vote for (IMO) You have to acknowledge it wouldn't matter who was negotiating IE Labour or the conservative the whole thing would still be a mess. Corbyn, May or whoever........Would have been on a hiding to nothing.
I think May will call for another referendum but it won't be what everyone wants. I think it most likely to be an Except the deal or leave.......I don't think there is an alternative.
I also think a change in our constitution may be needed to avoid the kind of thing we are going through again if ever it is needed. I'll leave the percentage needed IE 5%-6% or whatever for it to be carried.
I know a lot of you think we should stay as is your right. You mainly have seen my views on the subject. The truth is no matter which way things go in the future None of us are truly going to know which side would have been better off. Naturally the winner will.........When we joined all those years ago.....I said then this would end in tears.
In one of my eldest son's schools there is a time capsule that will eventually prove that I said that, which was buried just after we fully joined. Although to be fair most disagreed with me then so I was just as isolated as I am on here.
I won't be bullied into things and Im afraid that is how I see the EU with their negotiating. There is little doubt now that things are going to hit us hard.......trust me though it is going to hit the EU just as hard if not harder. Especially if we pull out with a no deal!!
No I don't have any figures or charts to back up what I feel and I certainly don't have a crystal ball like some of you seem to......just a gut feeling after listening to a few of my European contacts I'm still in touch with. Especially when they have to find the Billions that the UK used to contribute. Not immediate maybe but quite soon after mark my words........

If there is another referendum then one of the choices will be to remain, and that will win.

I love the way you rejoice in the fact that the EU will be worse off than us following a hard Brexit. It seems you see the EU as the enemy, rather than our number 1 trading partner for the last 40 years and the main force for keeping the peace in the European continent. Sorry but it completely baffles me.

 

[Missing Lambo]

How come on this board, most are Remainers with two exceptions. Why did the country not follow our lead?

I refer the honourable member to Vin's previous witty answer.

If there is another referendum then one of the choices will be to remain, and that will win.

I love the way you rejoice in the fact that the EU will be worse off than us following a hard Brexit. It seems you see the EU as the enemy, rather than our number 1 trading partner for the last 40 years and the main force for keeping the peace in the European continent. Sorry but it completely baffles me.

All this, Chilco and the force that enabled the restoration of Liverpool. Just had some friends up from London who need oxygen if they travel north of Watford. They couldn't believe how amazing Liverpool is today - and so much of it down to EU money. There is abundant evidence that it would have been left to rot by UK governments. Oh, sorry. Heseltine gave it the Garden Festival, the patronising ****.

EDIT: Liverpool is not the only example. A number of regions and cities have been developed thanks to EU money.

 

[Beddy]

If there is another referendum then one of the choices will be to remain, and that will win.

I love the way you rejoice in the fact that the EU will be worse off than us following a hard Brexit. It seems you see the EU as the enemy, rather than our number 1 trading partner for the last 40 years and the main force for keeping the peace in the European continent. Sorry but it completely baffles me.

I'm not sure how we can include remain.......We had that vote already. You just can't ignore it because it didn't suite you. There was a clear majority.
I agree you may have some people changing their minds........As you always do in these type of situations. If they do have another vote then I hope they at least will have changed the constitution for a greater majority for the outcome.
I don't rejoice in the EU will be worse off. I got that from some of our EU partners direct that is how they see it.
I certainly do not see the EU as an enemy but I do see them as bullying us and have done for quite a while. You may not agree but I promise I have good reason to believe that. I think that if any party were to completely ignore that first referendum would be in serious trouble. It doesn't bother me having another one as I think the vote will be the same.........Although maybe with a smaller majority..........Hence why I think the constitution needs to be changed. Had this been done in the first place we wouldn't be having this discussion at all........However it still wouldn't have changed my mind........

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I refer the honourable member to Vin's previous witty answer.


All this, Chilco and the force that enabled the restoration of Liverpool. Just had some friends up from London who need oxygen if they travel north of Watford. They couldn't believe how amazing Liverpool is today - and so much of it down to EU money. There is abundant evidence that it would have been left to rot by UK governments. Oh, sorry. Heseltine gave it the Garden Festival, the patronising ****.

I remember seeing Virginia Bottomley on Question Time from Liverpool back in the 80’s. She started off by saying how much she enjoyed visiting Liverpool. “It’s a wonderful city, it’s got, er, a river....” before drying up completely.

 

[Beddy]

I refer the honourable member to Vin's previous witty answer.


All this, Chilco and the force that enabled the restoration of Liverpool. Just had some friends up from London who need oxygen if they travel north of Watford. They couldn't believe how amazing Liverpool is today - and so much of it down to EU money. There is abundant evidence that it would have been left to rot by UK governments. Oh, sorry. Heseltine gave it the Garden Festival, the patronising ****.

EDIT: Liverpool is not the only example. A number of regions and cities have been developed thanks to EU money.

You can look at that way .......or perhaps you can look at it as a return on the UKs contribution.......which means we paid for it indirectly.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I'm not sure how we can include remain.......We had that vote already. You just can't ignore it because it didn't suite you. There was a clear majority.
I agree you may have some people changing their minds........As you always do in these type of situations. If they do have another vote then I hope they at least will have changed the constitution for a greater majority for the outcome.
I don't rejoice in the EU will be worse off. I got that from some of our EU partners direct that is how they see it.
I certainly do not see the EU as an enemy but I do see them as bullying us and have done for quite a while. You may not agree but I promise I have good reason to believe that. I think that if any party were to completely ignore that first referendum would be in serious trouble. It doesn't bother me having another one as I think the vote will be the same.........Although maybe with a smaller majority..........Hence why I think the constitution needs to be changed. Had this been done in the first place we wouldn't be having this discussion at all........However it still wouldn't have changed my mind........

I can’t understand why having a second vote on something is somehow undemocratic. Of course we can ignore the first vote because the picture of how disastrous leaving would be wasn’t as clear then as it is now.

You have obviously had some bad experience related to the EU which you don’t want to talk about, and I respect that. All I can say is that the vast majority of people I know have had no such experience. Members of my family have travelled, worked, and lived in various EU countries without any problems and I want my grandchildren to have that same freedom of movement. Other people I know who are in business shudder at the prospect of leaving, with or without May’s deal, and the effect it will have on their overseas trade. When the Health Secretary announces proudly that he has become the world’s largest buyer of fridges to stockpile medicines you know something is going badly wrong.

 

[The Ides of March]

One possible outcome in the New Year is that if May´s deal is rejected, and MPs in the House will not support a "no deal" we may well see a merger of elements from the Conservatives such as Glieve, and Nicky Morgan, around 60% of Labour MPS, the Lib Dems and SNP and PC merging to form a "crisis" government to avoid the "Hard Brexit" crash. A similar scenario happened in around 1846 with the Repeal of the Corn Laws under the stewardship of Robert Peel. At the time the Conservative party was torn between its landed aristocratic element and a more bourgeoise faction. As we know, Peel was not in favour of their repeal but reluctantly enacted their repeal which resulted in the fall of the then Conservative Government to be replaced by the Whigs joined by some Conservatives with Peel at the helm.

We often talk about history repeating itself. What´s the risk? There will be massive peaceful demonstrations by pro-Brexit supporters, with a few thugs threatening to beat up Parliamentarians for denying the "will of the people."
There were certainly a nasty few guys bullying, I think, Aubrey as she was on her way to the House the other day. IMO, MPs will have to ride out the storm because as far as I can see, a Hard Brexit will be extremely damaging.

 

[Beddy]

I can’t understand why having a second vote on something is somehow undemocratic. Of course we can ignore the first vote because the picture of how disastrous leaving would be wasn’t as clear then as it is now.

You have obviously had some bad experience related to the EU which you don’t want to talk about, and I respect that. All I can say is that the vast majority of people I know have had no such experience. Members of my family have travelled, worked, and lived in various EU countries without any problems and I want my grandchildren to have that same freedom of movement. Other people I know who are in business shudder at the prospect of leaving, with or without May’s deal, and the effect it will have on their overseas trade. When the Health Secretary announces proudly that he has become the world’s largest buyer of fridges to stockpile medicines you know something is going badly wrong.

I agree..........It could be argued though that the 2 years has been wasted in not preparing properly for what the people voted for.........We didn't have any shortages before we went in to the common market, so why should we have a problem now.........?The only difference is when we went in suddenly we weren't allowed to use our commonwealth countries to supply us with butter, meats or vegetables etc. We were forced to change to the EU suppliers. Eventually same happened with the medical supplies which I understand came from Canada mainly as well as the states.
Just as I guess it could be argued that no party had a fall back plan should the vote go against them. They were so adamant and cock sure that they would win the remain vote. Maybe a hard lesson to learn here........
The one consensus among us all is the whole things a bloody great mess!!!

 

[The Ides of March]

This mess having been created by Cameron caving in to grant a referéndum when there was no need. However, políticos like Farage aided by others wormed away at the emotional mindset of people which worked wonders in "Leave" winning the vote. It is the same with Catalunya´s problem. Catalunya is the most prosperous autonomy in Spain, and compared with other regions, the economic crisis was no where near as severe but Catalan separatists have wormed away at the minds of people in arguing the need for Independence through access to the media (a number of channels broadcast in Catalan) that resulted in the farce of a referéndum, with the PP over-reacting through the use of forcé instead of mediating.

 

[The Ides of March]

I agree..........It could be argued though that the 2 years has been wasted in not preparing properly for what the people voted for.........We didn't have any shortages before we went in to the common market, so why should we have a problem now.........?The only difference is when we went in suddenly we weren't allowed to use our commonwealth countries to supply us with butter, meats or vegetables etc. We were forced to change to the EU suppliers. Eventually same happened with the medical supplies which I understand came from Canada mainly as well as the states.
Just as I guess it could be argued that no party had a fall back plan should the vote go against them. They were so adamant and cock sure that they would win the remain vote. Maybe a hard lesson to learn here........
The one consensus among us all is the whole things a bloody great mess!!!

Cameron´s premiership contrasts starkly with that of Thatcher and Blair. Neither backed down in the face of opposition (Thatcher with Las Malvinas/Falklands and the miners, Blair with Article 3 or 4, and over the invasión of Iraq)

 

[ChilcoSaint]

I agree..........It could be argued though that the 2 years has been wasted in not preparing properly for what the people voted for.........We didn't have any shortages before we went in to the common market, so why should we have a problem now.........?The only difference is when we went in suddenly we weren't allowed to use our commonwealth countries to supply us with butter, meats or vegetables etc. We were forced to change to the EU suppliers. Eventually same happened with the medical supplies which I understand came from Canada mainly as well as the states.
Just as I guess it could be argued that no party had a fall back plan should the vote go against them. They were so adamant and cock sure that they would win the remain vote. Maybe a hard lesson to learn here........
The one consensus among us all is the whole things a bloody great mess!!!

Sorry but you’re just plain wrong. We still trade with the Commonwealth countries, but we do it through the EU. The EU is Australia’s second-largest export destination, and New Zealand’s third-largest, for example. And we have always bought medical supplies from European countries, even before the Common Market started.

What’s changed is that most businesses operate nowadays on a just-in-time basis, because storing things in warehouses costs a fortune. You go to your Audi/VW/Mercedes/Renault dealership wanting a spare part, they order it, and it arrives from the factory in Germany or France on a lorry the next day or so. It’s possible because the Customs declaration is done in the factory before it’s transported. If we leave the EU without a deal the Customs check will have to happen at the port of entry into the UK, and so the thousands of lorries arriving every day will ALL be delayed, for hours and hours and hours. That’ll be great for business, eh?

But at least we won’t be bullied by the nasty EU any more, so it’ll be worth it.

 

[Beddy]

Sorry but you’re just plain wrong. We still trade with the Commonwealth countries, but we do it through the EU. The EU is Australia’s second-largest export destination, and New Zealand’s third-largest, for example. And we have always bought medical supplies from European countries, even before the Common Market started.

What’s changed is that most businesses operate nowadays on a just-in-time basis, because storing things in warehouses costs a fortune. You go to your Audi/VW/Mercedes/Renault dealership wanting a spare part, they order it, and it arrives from the factory in Germany or France on a lorry the next day or so. It’s possible because the Customs declaration is done in the factory before it’s transported. If we leave the EU without a deal the Customs check will have to happen at the port of entry into the UK, and so the thousands of lorries arriving every day will ALL be delayed, for hours and hours and hours. That’ll be great for business, eh?

But at least we won’t be bullied by the nasty EU any more, so it’ll be worth it.

Yes we do now........Now isn't that strange....we used to deal with Europe before we went into the common market? Then why was there a need to join?? Why is there a need to not stay as we were and just trade with who we want?
New Zealand and Australia lost out badly when we joined in the short to med term. As did Canada and a lot of the others. Some had agreements. The others were forced to make agreements if they wanted to supply us. Just remember the Common market wasn't as large then. Then you had the butter mountains etc the Beef park I believe it was called also........So trade was stopped again with these countries and a hell of a lot went to waste. Still that is another argument. I remember the thousands that were put out of work in Aussie because of this.............I cant speak for New Zealand as I didn't have many contacts there then. There was of course other Aussie trades that suffered some very badly. Yet I see you don't call that bullying........ ok........have it your way.......The truth will hit home one day mark my words............

 

[VocalMinority]

I agree..........It could be argued though that the 2 years has been wasted in not preparing properly for what the people voted for.........We didn't have any shortages before we went in to the common market, so why should we have a problem now.........?The only difference is when we went in suddenly we weren't allowed to use our commonwealth countries to supply us with butter, meats or vegetables etc. We were forced to change to the EU suppliers. Eventually same happened with the medical supplies which I understand came from Canada mainly as well as the states.
Just as I guess it could be argued that no party had a fall back plan should the vote go against them. They were so adamant and cock sure that they would win the remain vote. Maybe a hard lesson to learn here........
The one consensus among us all is the whole things a bloody great mess!!!

Our population demographic has change massively with the increase in life expectancy that has had a large impact on our medical needs. Also medical science has advanced and become more complex and demanding.
We're also far more integrated into the EU now so obviously changing system would cause shortages anyway.
But more so when we are switching from a union like the EU where all the various parts can be made, transported and put together cheaply without tarrif than if you try to have it created on the network of commonwealth countries with different trade agreements and checks etc over longsr distances which is far less effecient.

In other words the world has progressed and going backwards causes issues.

You can go back to 1973 medicine if you want but you would be knocking 10 years off your life expectancy.

 

[Onionman]

We often talk about history repeating itself. What´s the risk? There will be massive peaceful demonstrations by pro-Brexit supporters, with a few thugs threatening to beat up Parliamentarians for denying the "will of the people."

Sadly it's already resulted in more than threats. Jo Cox MP was murdered.

And don't worry, someone will be on here in a while to tell you it had nothing to do with Brexit.

Vin

 

[Beddy]

Sadly it's already resulted in more than threats. Jo Cox MP was murdered.

And don't worry, someone will be on here in a while to tell you it had nothing to do with Brexit.

Vin

Strewth Vin you really are not blaming that on the Brexiteers are you? Oh heaven helps......

 

[Onionman]

If there is another referendum then (1) one of the choices will be to remain, and that (2) will win.

1. Guaranteed, because if it goes to a referendum a bill has to pass Parliament. For it to get to a referendum, May's deal will already have to have been defeated, so that's never going to be on the ballot.
2. Possibly. The campaign would have to be a damned sight better this time, perhaps pointing out that Freedom of Movement is a benefit, not a curse, along with highlighting the plethora of things that we gain from membership rather then what we'll lose by leaving. Also no party grandees at the top.

All this assumes that May is a rational actor. I'm losing faith in that. From many years ago she's been obsessed with ending Freedom of Movement so I wouldn't put it past her to jump on the No Deal horse, and all she has to do is delay.

Vin

 

[Onionman]

Strewth Vin you really are not blaming that on the Brexiteers are you? Oh heaven helps......

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-in-leeds-witnesses-report/

I quote: Mrs Cox, a 41-year-old mother of two, was shot three times and repeatedly stabbed by a killer screaming “Britain first”."

Alternatively:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37978582

From which I quote:

"Fazila Aswat, the MP's manager, allegedly heard the defendant shouting, "This is for Britain. Britain will always come first," the prosecution told the jury."

Vin

 

[Beddy]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-in-leeds-witnesses-report/

I quote: Mrs Cox, a 41-year-old mother of two, was shot three times and repeatedly stabbed by a killer screaming “Britain first”."

Alternatively:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37978582

From which I quote:

"Fazila Aswat, the MP's manager, allegedly heard the defendant shouting, "This is for Britain. Britain will always come first," the prosecution told the jury."

Vin

Goodness vin..........Oh yes I remember all that......however you are still blaming the brexiteers for one idiot. Do you really believe the remainers don't have their share of idiots? Ok granted thankfully as far as we know haven't taken anyones life. For goodness sake Vin don't paint us all with the same brush mate come on........