Off Topic Politics Thread

[VocalMinority]

Or put in a bank and loaned back to governments who are having to pay tax credits because the money they just got loaned should really have been paid to employees by the employer......and incurred NI.tax employer/employee contributions as well.

No that's paid for by tax. Or at least it should be if the government isn't trying to bail out it's budget. A government taking loans should only go towards projects increasing its income higher than the interest. Same as with buisness.(current Tories dont seem to get this)

In this case the process would be : buisness takes a loan, expands, hires workers, generates wealth. New wealth of workers and buisness is taxed and lower wage workers are topped up with tax credits. Company pays back loan with interest and generates more income to expand or invest while original invester also has more money to expand or invest.
More jobs, bigger economy, less benefits.

If there was no loan they would all be unemployed and taking unemployment benefits hurting everyone.

Where tax credits help over minimum wage(in this context, what they should be paid, as you put it) is that they help struggling buisness as they should pay less tax where such a buisness might go bankrupt under minimum wage hurting everyone.

Obviously moving tax around doesn't help with this but balancing minimum wage and tax credit is about balancing what the government pays to help buisness thrive and ensuring that buisnesses pay their fair share towards it's workers.

 

[Onionman]

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Second tweet here. We're being lied to again folks.

That is all.

Vin

 

[ImpSaint]

No that's paid for by tax. Or at least it should be if the government isn't trying to bail out it's budget. A government taking loans should only go towards projects increasing its income higher than the interest. Same as with buisness.(current Tories dont seem to get this)

In this case the process would be : buisness takes a loan, expands, hires workers, generates wealth. New wealth of workers and buisness is taxed and lower wage workers are topped up with tax credits. Company pays back loan with interest and generates more income to expand or invest while original invester also has more money to expand or invest.
More jobs, bigger economy, less benefits.

If there was no loan they would all be unemployed and taking unemployment benefits hurting everyone.

Where tax credits help over minimum wage(in this context, what they should be paid, as you put it) is that they help struggling buisness as they should pay less tax where such a buisness might go bankrupt under minimum wage hurting everyone.

Obviously moving tax around doesn't help with this but balancing minimum wage and tax credit is about balancing what the government pays to help buisness thrive and ensuring that buisnesses pay their fair share towards it's workers.

IT shouldn't come out of tax. Employers should be paying the extra and not expecting the government to.

And governments aren't taking loans out to "increase its income." They are taking loans out to pay the interest of national debt and pay for PFI/PPP type deals.

Your last sentence just shows you don;t fully understand the change that has happened in the past 20 years where employers now have "investors in people" plaques on their wall despite handing over responsibility for paying decent wages AND training people over to the state..........and not actually doing what their plaques say.

 

[Onionman]

And governments aren't taking loans out to "increase its income." They are taking loans out to pay the interest of national debt and pay for PFI/PPP type deals.

Building a hospital keeps people more able to work.
Building a road allows people and goods to travel more efficiently.
Putting lights on a trunk road reduces accidents (more people working, less wasted money dealing with aftermath) as well as improving the flow of goods.

So, governments borrow in order to make the economy bigger. Which increases their income. Regardless of how its paid for.

And if the national debt interest is increased but by less than the increased tax take because of better infrastructure, etc, then it's not a problem.

This really is basic stuff that I understood when I was a Tory yet so many on the right fail to see it and believe cutting government expenditure is always a good thing.

Vin

 

[ChilcoSaint]

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[San Tejón]

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The way she grabbed her bag and legged it, I thought last orders were being called in one of their subsidised bars.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

The way she grabbed her bag and legged it, I thought last orders were being called in one of their subsidised bars.

The motion is quite cunningly worded to try and appeal to rebels on both wings of the Tory Party as well as the DUP. I can’t see her losing it but it’ll be fun anyway!

 

[----HistoryRepeating----]

To show us how serious they all are about getting a deal sorted, the MP's should cancel Christmas and work instead. Pretend that it matters, and its not just a jolly boys outing. That would make me feel better.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Building a hospital keeps people more able to work.
Building a road allows people and goods to travel more efficiently.
Putting lights on a trunk road reduces accidents (more people working, less wasted money dealing with aftermath) as well as improving the flow of goods.

So, governments borrow in order to make the economy bigger. Which increases their income. Regardless of how its paid for.

And if the national debt interest is increased but by less than the increased tax take because of better infrastructure, etc, then it's not a problem.

This really is basic stuff that I understood when I was a Tory yet so many on the right fail to see it and believe cutting government expenditure is always a good thing.

Vin

Another massive point that’s rarely mentioned is the power of inflation to erode away the governments debt.

They aren’t stupid, they can put up interest rates over time and eventually the debt will dwindle down.

 

[VocalMinority]

IT shouldn't come out of tax. Employers should be paying the extra and not expecting the government to.

And governments aren't taking loans out to "increase its income." They are taking loans out to pay the interest of national debt and pay for PFI/PPP type deals.

Your last sentence just shows you don;t fully understand the change that has happened in the past 20 years where employers now have "investors in people" plaques on their wall despite handing over responsibility for paying decent wages AND training people over to the state..........and not actually doing what their plaques say.

why shouldnt it come out of tax?

They are taking loans out to pay off loans.... thats some good circular logic you've made there . i answered this point in my previous post. unless they are bailing out the budget they shouldnt use tax for this.

Youre last sentence just makes no sense. they are doing what the plaque says. Government provides money and the business grows and gives money back to the government and the public. you are letting your bias against business cloud your judgement here. what you said is a positive, you just haven't thought it through. business getting money is good. people being training and in work is good. economy growing so government get more tax is good. If you use your logic my entire company does nothing...

responsibility lies with whoever can make the biggest improvement, and ofc as in most things the best is a mix to gain the benefits of both and offset the weaknesses.

 

[tomw24]

The motion is quite cunningly worded to try and appeal to rebels on both wings of the Tory Party as well as the DUP. I can’t see her losing it but it’ll be fun anyway!

The government will just dismiss it as it stands. There won't be a vote unless he tables a motion of no confidence against the government when there has to be a vote. Corbyn is playing games at the moment. He will inevitably table the motion against the government when he is confident he will get a general election.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

The government will just dismiss it as it stands. There won't be a vote unless he tables a motion of no confidence against the government when there has to be a vote. Corbyn is playing games at the moment. He will inevitably table the motion against the government when he is confident he will get a general election.

It’s nothing compared to the games May is playing with the country’s future.

 

[ImpSaint]

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[----HistoryRepeating----]

If this rumbles on much longer I'm leaving!!!

 

[ImpSaint]

Building a hospital keeps people more able to work.

So take out a loan instead of handing the money +40%+ to those at the top on PFI/PPP

Building a road allows people and goods to travel more efficiently.

Build what roads? Have you seen the roads? Or are we just talking roads in the rich part of the country?

You are missing the point that they did everything straight away. They chose to make favourable deals with their mates instead of thinking about the best financial decisions for the country. You can't just keep spending forever. And you should be trying to get value for money not just shoving as much as possible up the tree and hope that no-one questions it.

Your if is terrible. We are only just now borrowing less than the interest. And apparently we are in austerity. So in your terms (where we are in austerity) we should be spending a lot more and thus the deficit would be way more than we are and thus accruing more interest.

Last year deficit was reduced to £42bn.........(with everything cut) Interest was £48bn.

Do you ignore the tax take that reduced wages reduced? That the government then had to double up on replacing the difference with tax credits?

 

[ImpSaint]

why shouldnt it come out of tax?

They are taking loans out to pay off loans.... thats some good circular logic you've made there . i answered this point in my previous post. unless they are bailing out the budget they shouldnt use tax for this.

Youre last sentence just makes no sense. they are doing what the plaque says. Government provides money and the business grows and gives money back to the government and the public. you are letting your bias against business cloud your judgement here. what you said is a positive, you just haven't thought it through. business getting money is good. people being training and in work is good. economy growing so government get more tax is good. If you use your logic my entire company does nothing...

responsibility lies with whoever can make the biggest improvement, and ofc as in most things the best is a mix to gain the benefits of both and offset the weaknesses.

It is a ciurcular argument from you or whoever I was replying to. Arguing whether it is coming from the loan or the tax means nothing. If I pay my credit card from my wages but then use the credit card when the wages run out then you can argue it came from my wages if you want but to me I paid for it with the money I had then to borrow at the end of the month.

 

[ImpSaint]

It’s nothing compared to the games May is playing with the country’s future.

Man who makes a speech about wasting time, then tables a vote of confidence that will waste time because it is pretty meaningless. He should have held off until he could do the meaningful one. As it stands all his supporters think he is great but a lot of the knowledgable left have their head in their hands.

Read a twitter post earlier "Corbyn snatches defeat from the jaws of defeat." Conservative Home published an article saying May might have a good Christmas after all. He shouldn't have let the SNP push him into it.

 

[fatletiss]

The motion is quite cunningly worded to try and appeal to rebels on both wings of the Tory Party as well as the DUP. I can’t see her losing it but it’ll be fun anyway!

It worries me that some of our politicians think like this too Chilcs. It’s not really a fun matter; our future and our children’s future is at stake. No fun in seeing that get botched at every twist and turn.

We’re in a mess. May and her actions have caused a lot of this but all I’m hearing at the moment is tactics to gain power or keep power from either side, rather than working together constructively to find a solution

 

[Beddy]

Education is education in my books..............Students shouldn't have to pay to be educated......They never used to...........Why the need now............They would rather go to war in Syria or anywhere else rather than educate our children to the highest level achievable!!

 

[Beddy]

It worries me that some of our politicians think like this too Chilcs. It’s not really a fun matter; our future and our children’s future is at stake. No fun in seeing that get botched at every twist and turn.

We’re in a mess. May and her actions have caused a lot of this but all I’m hearing at the moment is tactics to gain power or keep power from either side, rather than working together constructively to find a solution

Other than just being a bloody nuisance what if anything has Corbyn and co contributed to the nations problems?? I so agree with you......... I believe I have said else where this was never going to work without a cross party consensus.