Off Topic Politics Thread

[San Tejón]

I heard a terrific comment the other day. The only way to see the sense in Brexit is to realise that every single thing that's been done so far (even back to the decision to hold the referendum) has been done in order to keep the Tory Party in one piece. It makes literally no sense economically but it keeps them whole. Which is all they care about. Generally wealthy, the people at the top of the Tories are utterly insulated from the economic effects so they can focus on keeping power.

Vin

Not sure if this claim is tongue in cheek or genuine, but you only have to see the way the Tory MPs vote, to know that party always trumps people.
Just one recent example is the number of Tory MPs who spoke out in condemnation of Universal Credit, who then voted against releasing the results of the government’s own survey on the impact it was having on people.
Self preservation should be their motto.

 

[ImpSaint]

That is the whole point. They have nothing to compare the last decade to.

As with all young people then.

I remember being 18-21. Had zero money. The world was grey. 90s was very dreary until the middle of it.

Compare that era to now? Life in poverty seems quite easy these days.

 

[ImpSaint]

An example of interventionist industrial policy would be, say, ensuring that when the railways updated all their rolling stock, a British company, such as Bombardier, gets the contract.

Thus creating jobs in the UK, rather than buying trains made in Germany that are then transported through the channel tunnel. If you leave everything to the free market, investors get a better deal but the taxpayer often doesn't - even when the investor is the taxpayer.

What trains that are made in Germany would these be? You mean the ones Siemens won the contract for to built in a purpose built factory in Hull?

 

[ImpSaint]

Doesn't really matter who the parent company is. The point is Bombardier have several plants in the UK, and that's where the manufacturing jobs would have been created.

Siemens are a massive employer in the UK. They have plants everywhere.

 

[ImpSaint]

Bombardier is of course a Canadian company.

Who (ironically) are headquarter in Berlin.........which is in erm..........Germany.

 

[Archers Road]

What trains that are made in Germany would these be? You mean the ones Siemens won the contract for to built in a purpose built factory in Hull?

No Imps, I mean the BR Class 700 trains built by Siemans in Krefeld in Germany, now being rolled out across the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern Networks.

 

[Archers Road]

Siemens are a massive employer in the UK. They have plants everywhere.

They have built maintenance plants in Hornsey and Three Bridges, for the trains they have manufactured in, er, Germany.

 

[ImpSaint]

They have built maintenance plants in Hornsey and Three Bridges, for the trains they have manufactured in, er, Germany.

Siemens employs 15,000 people in the UK. They are into much more than trains. And Bombardier are always in court if they lose a tender or contract. Then bang on about risks to jobs despite having more contracts at the moment than they could dream of.

There are a few train companies setting up (or hinting at setting up) in the UK since the DfT changed their policy wanting "new" trains instead of refurbished or old models and of course there is also the money spinner of HS2 on the horizon.

Bombardier won a massive contract off Siemens last year.....did Siemens take them to court?

 

[Archers Road]

Siemens employs 15,000 people in the UK. They are into much more than trains. And Bombardier are always in court if they lose a tender or contract. Then bang on about risks to jobs despite having more contracts at the moment than they could dream of.

There are a few train companies setting up (or hinting at setting up) in the UK since the DfT changed their policy wanting "new" trains instead of refurbished or old models and of course there is also the money spinner of HS2 on the horizon.

Bombardier won a massive contract off Siemens last year.....did Siemens take them to court?

I don't know Imps, not sure what point you're trying to make. There has been no change of policy regarding new and old trains, that I am aware of. Most of the rolling stock being replaced is approaching 40 years old, so further refurbishment isn't really an option any more.

My original point was that a government contract - via Network Rail - to build a new generation of rolling stock across the UK rail network was awarded to a company that had no manufacturing plant in the UK. Consequently all the Class 700 trains currently being rolled out on our railways were built in Germany and brought in to the UK via the channel tunnel. I think it's almost inconceivable that the German govt would have contemplated a similar arrangement to operate in reverse.

 

[ImpSaint]

I don't know Imps, not sure what point you're trying to make. There has been no change of policy regarding new and old trains, that I am aware of. Most of the rolling stock being replaced is approaching 40 years old, so further refurbishment isn't really an option any more.

My original point was that a government contract - via Network Rail - to build a new generation of rolling stock across the UK rail network was awarded to a company that had no manufacturing plant in the UK. Consequently all the Class 700 trains currently being rolled out on our railways were built in Germany and brought in to the UK via the channel tunnel. I think it's almost inconceivable that the German govt would have contemplated a similar arrangement to operate in reverse.

There was a policy of buying replacements rather than new models. like for like etc. The policy has changed now wanting updated stock.

As for the German govt etc. I agree. We are suckers and follow EU rules whereas the Germans and French don't. We could've continued buying British state vehicles but we didn't. We followed the EU competition rules and we ended up buying non British cars.

p.s. Alstom (who built the Queen Mary 2) were bailed out by the French Govt, with EU permission a decade ago!!! Another ironic part of that is that Alstom was Lincoln's largest private employer at the time and sponsored Lincoln City. They ended up having to sell their Lincoln operation at this time and thus our new sponsor was............Siemens............which remains Lincoln's largest private employer to this date. They even work hand in hand with Lincoln's UTC as a gold partner.

I totally agree with you r.e. the Germans. All of our police cars should be Vauxhall and Ford which most likely could've kept those factories over here however we might still be building Transits had the EU not loaned them kaboodles of cash to take it to Turkey.

Don't worry. We can do what we want soon and make sure everything the state buys is British unless we don't make it.

 

[The Ides of March]

There was a policy of buying replacements rather than new models. like for like etc. The policy has changed now wanting updated stock.

As for the German govt etc. I agree. We are suckers and follow EU rules whereas the Germans and French don't. We could've continued buying British state vehicles but we didn't. We followed the EU competition rules and we ended up buying non British cars.

p.s. Alstom (who built the Queen Mary 2) were bailed out by the French Govt, with EU permission a decade ago!!! Another ironic part of that is that Alstom was Lincoln's largest private employer at the time and sponsored Lincoln City. They ended up having to sell their Lincoln operation at this time and thus our new sponsor was............Siemens............which remains Lincoln's largest private employer to this date. They even work hand in hand with Lincoln's UTC as a gold partner.

I totally agree with you r.e. the Germans. All of our police cars should be Vauxhall and Ford which most likely could've kept those factories over here however we might still be building Transits had the EU not loaned them kaboodles of cash to take it to Turkey.

Don't worry. We can do what we want soon and make sure everything the state buys is British unless we don't make it.

These two car companies have lost a lot of the market share that they monopolised decades ago because they produced "c***." Do Ford or Opel produce cars as good as Mercedes, Audi or BMW, or the French car makers Renault, Puegeut, and Citroën. The answer is no. And as for the economy and compact class, the Far East giants produce much better products.

Another point is that Germany invests far more in science and engineering, and management skills that the UK. No wonder the UK is a loser!! And will be after Brexit if it goes ahead.

 

[tomw24]

It will be ****ing hilarious if the Democrats gain control of the Senate and the House of Representatives. Unfortunately the Senate is unlikely but they've got a good chance of getting the House so they can make life difficult for Trump.

 

[The Ides of March]

It will be ****ing hilarious if the Democrats gain control of the Senate and the House of Representatives. Unfortunately the Senate is unlikely but they've got a good chance of getting the House so they can make life difficult for Trump.

We can but hope that this comes about.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

We can but hope that this comes about.

I hooked you guys up.

Not that my vote matters. The Democrat is going to win my district in a landslide in the House, and they called the race for the Democratic Senator before the polls even close.

 

[Schad]

For those unfamiliar with American politics: might be about time to start getting a bit nervous. Overall a good night for the Democrats, but the telling part is that the frothing crazies turned out at an exceptional rate, which meant that the Democrats won in a lot of fairly left-leaning places, but the Republicans also made unexpected gains in fairly right-leaning places. And the lesson from that is going to be taken from this is that there's no such thing as too crazy, because they bolstered the Senate against expectations, and the people who won were in general absolutely bananas.

This is going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Yep. Pretty much.

The Democrats didn't run that many far left candidates. Most of their gains were by moderate leftists in suburban districts. So there wasn't a big shift to the far left.

There was a big shift to the far right, however despite the GOP losing the house. The big losers were moderate conservatives. The most insane, egregiously awful dickheads and blatant cheaters all won easily, and in many cases by larger margins than expected. I think people expected the GOP to pick up seats in the Senate because of the way the map worked out.

It's going to be pretty nasty for the next few years. At this point, the right has dropped all pretense of caring about any other issue than cultural white identity. Everyone in the country knows this. But, the right has also discovered how they can win, despite most of the country despising them. Just stick together and vote for your candidate no matter what, and cheat if you have to. Their path to winning in 2020 became crystal clear last night. Even if 60-65% of the country can't stand them they can win. Trump is going to be farther right than ever.

The liberals are happy today because they are all like "Yay, finally we can subpeona Trump's records and expose him for the sham that he is." What they are overlooking is just how little any of that matters. They think having access to stuff and bringing all this stuff to light is going to change his supporter's minds. It won't.

 

[Archers Road]

It’s alright guys, we already know you’re all nuts over there.

Just keep the giant orange baby restrained, don’t let the Republicans break your Republic, and you’ll get through this. You only got rid of slavery 150 years ago, you’ve come quite a long way since then.

Oh, you should maybe stop shooting each other.

 

[Schad]

It’s alright guys, we already know you’re all nuts over there.

Just keep the giant orange baby restrained, don’t let the Republicans break your Republic, and you’ll get through this. You only got rid of slavery 150 years ago, you’ve come quite a long way since then.

Oh, you should maybe stop shooting each other.

I think restraint has gone out the window. Over the past fifteen years, the GOP has alienated the following groups that were considered swing blocs previously: Latinos, Asians, Middle Easterners and Jewish voters had all seen the share of Democratic votes tick up sharply. Added to the mix now is white college-educated women. That leaves them with one hope: turn out white men and uneducated white women at exceptionally high rates, and the one way they can do that (and did that, in both 2016 and 2018) is by really hammering on race and xenophobia.

Sure, I think that Trump still loses in 2020, but the results have all but guaranteed that the GOP will be running a lot more Trumps in the future. The moderate Republican is extinct, and moderate Democrats in the Senate nearly got wiped out, as well. It's knife fights all the way down now.


Edit: speaking of a lack of restraint, Trump has fired the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General to try to hamstring the Mueller investigation, and is openly threatening to declare war on the Democratic House should they investigate the corruption of his administration. **** this timeline.

 

[Archers Road]

I think restraint has gone out the window. Over the past fifteen years, the GOP has alienated the following groups that were considered swing blocs previously: Latinos, Asians, Middle Easterners and Jewish voters had all seen the share of Democratic votes tick up sharply. Added to the mix now is white college-educated women. That leaves them with one hope: turn out white men and uneducated white women at exceptionally high rates, and the one way they can do that (and did that, in both 2016 and 2018) is by really hammering on race and xenophobia.

Sure, I think that Trump still loses in 2020, but the results have all but guaranteed that the GOP will be running a lot more Trumps in the future. The moderate Republican is extinct, and moderate Democrats in the Senate nearly got wiped out, as well. It's knife fights all the way down now.


Edit: speaking of a lack of restraint, Trump has fired the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General to try to hamstring the Mueller investigation, and is openly threatening to declare war on the Democratic House should they investigate the corruption of his administration. **** this timeline.

Well the move away from the centre seems to be a universal pattern throughout the democratic world right now. But the centre ground is generally where most elections are decided.

I know the Republicans, having failed to deal with their own extremists in the early days of the Tea Party, seem to have a particular problem with their lunatic fringe, but surely there can't be much of a long term future for a political part that appeals exclusively to angry white old men?

 

[Schad]

Well the move away from the centre seems to be a universal pattern throughout the democratic world right now. But the centre ground is generally where most elections are decided.

I know the Republicans, having failed to deal with their own extremists in the early days of the Tea Party, seem to have a particular problem with their lunatic fringe, but surely there can't be much of a long term future for a political part that appeals exclusively to angry white old men?

Likely isn't a long-term future, no. The demographics are steadily moving against them, and while they've energized angry white young men too, it will eventually catch up to them. I's going to be painful until that comes to pass, though.

And the centre certainly used to be where elections were contested, but in the US there simply aren't many persuadable voters left. There are, however, a huge number of habitual non-voters. They don't tend to be pushed to the polls by moderation, but they can be activated for good or ill if they feel that the stakes are high enough. The Democrats have made progress in turning non-white voters out from 2008 on, but over the past two cycles the Republicans have also proven rather adept at turning out white voters by appealing to their basest instincts. There's no going back on that now, I don't think.