Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
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You are letting your own personal interpretation of another person’s comments influence your response, in this case.
I wasn’t implying that anyone was an idiot.
I was implying that some people were sold an idea by some politicians who knew it to be an untruth. They were duped.
The lie was perpetuated in the media and as often happens, an often repeated lie, in some people’s mind, becomes a truth.
That the idea was repudiated didn’t stop the bus from featuring regularly in news bulletins and in photos in the press, keeping the thought in the minds of those that don’t use other means to check for accuracy, other than their daily paper or the news bulletins.
And I very much doubt that the Brexit supporting press made a big show of pointing out that the bus lie, was indeed a lie.
I honestly believe that this lie had a bigger effect on the vote than others may believe.
Personal opinion.
Well that might have been useful on the side of a bus a while ago dontyathink!
The bus falsely stated the whole amount ignoring the rebate - We agree
The remain numbers stated the net contribution after the EU spend some of our contribution on us - We don't agree.
Both parties used misleading amounts when detailing what we pay which should have been the £350m - rebate and not including what the EU chooses to spend here that we have no control over.
The lie was not perpetuated in the media. For months every time a remainer was on the media questioned the £350m figure virtually before any other questioning. Even Farage admitted every time the £350 figure was wrong. It was probably the most scrutinised item of both sides through the whole campaign continually being corrected at every news bulletin, panel show, debate etc. The "net" contribution never received the same scrutiny despite it being fact that the money coming back to us was "our money" anyway and not in our control to decide where we spend it.
The reality is that the money we will "gain" will be the £350m (or whatever it is) minus the rebate.............and once we have stopped paying that we can "fund" all sorts of things that our governments choose. Whether that be £18bn (£350m x 52 weeks) or the £14bn that most suggest. It will not be £8.6bn that the remain camp stated (£13.1bn - 4.5bn.)
The argument/discussion we are actually having though is not about those numbers up there because both sides misled on the real number. It is about you thinking it had a massive impact on the voting intentions directly through the numbers quoted and your assertion that people thought it meant the whole contribution would be going to the NHS instead.
You think loads were "duped." I think that not many at all were duped.
The general idea that people thought "yes we should be spending that money on other things instead" I have no problem with. Just the assertion that people's votes were swung on the figure quoted or interpreted the message as it all going to the NHS.
I think (my opinion) it had vastly smaller impact on voting intention than the "fear factor" had on people who might have thought "better vote remain."
I still cannot get my head around the constant banging on about the printed press. The BBC alone has one of (No1?) the most viewed websites in the country and the dominant news channel. Sky news regularly "debunked" the £350m, Radio is dominated by the BBC. They regularly "debunked" the £350m.
The most likely demographic to actually read the printed press are also the demographic most likely to be listening to BBC radio.
So we have differing opinions on this. I respect your personal opinion. I just don't agree with it.
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This is a very good read but very long. written last month by a professor of politics. Pretty much echoes what I have said over the past couple of years. (No I am not him. maybe he reads my posts. lol)
Britain’s Populist Revolt
"More than two years have passed since Britain voted for Brexit. Ever since that moment, the vote to leave the European Union has routinely been framed as an aberration; a radical departure from ‘normal’ life."
https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/
Britain’s Populist Revolt
"More than two years have passed since Britain voted for Brexit. Ever since that moment, the vote to leave the European Union has routinely been framed as an aberration; a radical departure from ‘normal’ life."
https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/
Wow, that’s unnecessarily catty. You’d think a politician leading the leave campaign may have considered what may happen. That is my biggest grumble and was at the time, not a “we lost” grumble.
Imps, that’s a stretch and your interpretation. I know lots of people that voted because they told me that more money would be available for NHS. They’re not stupid, but they did believe that message. They believed a politician - now that may have been stupid!
Really Fats.......I wasn't aware that there had been any announcement the government were not going to follow through on that? When did that happen?
Never, ever forget that at one person on here voted "leave" literally as a result of the toss of a coin.
Two customers of mine who voted leave gave me their reasons: one "I'm old and I thought it would be fun to see what happened if we voted leave" and one "I've had enough of Dave (Cameron)".
But no-one was taken in by a lie on a bus that appeared on TV every night.
Yeah, the British population certainly isn't stupid. They read and balanced the evidence for a Single Market exit, a Norway-type deal, a Canada-type deal and then analysed the probable effect of a no-deal WTO exit then made a careful decision. My arse.
Vin
Two customers of mine who voted leave gave me their reasons: one "I'm old and I thought it would be fun to see what happened if we voted leave" and one "I've had enough of Dave (Cameron)".
But no-one was taken in by a lie on a bus that appeared on TV every night.
Yeah, the British population certainly isn't stupid. They read and balanced the evidence for a Single Market exit, a Norway-type deal, a Canada-type deal and then analysed the probable effect of a no-deal WTO exit then made a careful decision. My arse.
Vin
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...br-fiscal-sustainability-report-a8450731.html
Government's own independent spending watchdog has said it's bollocks.
Vin
They said basically straight away that the bus wasn't true and they werent bound by any of the promises the leave campaign made as it wasn't related to the government.
Either way the brexit dividend is going to pay back the 39 billion we've agreed to pay the EU which won't be paid off until 2023. Government had promised increased budgets for the NHS after that but what our economy will be like that far ahead is just guesswork.
That is exactly what I said. I am not questioning that people thought "more money would be available for the NHS." I have no problem with that assertion. That is not what is always said though. Like above where you describe my statement as "catty" the remain argument is always stating "people were duped into believing £350m a week would be going to the NHS" which is not true.
Yes people believed money would be available for the NHS and all sorts of other things. But that is not what those on the remain side say. They assert that people were led to believe £350m would go to the NHS and that people voted entirely because of that "lie", thus that people were stupid and gullible. This of course is without a hint of irony that many voted remain based on the "fear factor."
I also think the effect "vote leave" had on the result is massively overplayed as is the "right wing press" narrative. vote leave might as well have not bothered with their campaign because they were useless. Most of the "influence" on the referendum for leave was on social media or on the street. Vote leave might have had their 5 minute snippets on the TV news but not many people actually saw a bus or a stall in the street.
The campaign was won despite remain having much more airtime on the TV channels because remain sold a message of negativity (be scared, be very scared) whereas leave sold a message of positivity.
I do not accept that we are where we are now through leave incompetence (alone, yes there is some.) We are where we are now because rather than accept the result the remain side have been fighting the result, asking for a second referendum that they said there wouldn't be pre-referendum, saying it didn;t mean leaving the SM/CU when they said it did before the referendum and saying t'other side lied with a straight face without accepting that they lied too and saying leave voters were duped by those "lies" without ever considering that remain voters were duped (scared) into voting remain too.
As we keep hearing (or used to hear) people do fear change and they do tend to vote for the status quo (play it safe.) It is highly likely because of that more people voted remain through the fear factor than were duped by any "false" claims made by the leave side. We never hear that though. Only the stupid leave voters could have been duped, not the remain side because they voted for the "right" outcome.
All the leave side's fault. Brexiters fault we are in this mess. Never ever any discussion about the input/effect the constant "sabotage" from the remain side has had on the last couple of years. All the leave side's fault, nothing to do with us.
OBR - The "independent" body set up by George Osborne.........why not just ask the moneymen or Gina Miller or Clegg/Mandelson/Kinnock.
Your statement ignores that we never had to pay that £39bn. Our government decided to negotiate that despite it not being a legal obligation. There was no talk of a "divorce bill" before the referendum. If it were ever thought that would happen the remain camp would have been on it all the time, but they didn't because it only came up when the opportunistic EU tried their luck and found that UK politicians fell for the line straight away.
The whole "there will be no Brexit dividend is nothing to do with what we send to the EU. There will of course be a dividend because we will keep what we would have sent. The talk of "no Brexit Dividend" is to do with it being assumed that the saving will be cancelled out by economic losses.
We would be here for weeks arguing about whether economists are right on the losses or not but most of them are influenced by their blind allegiance to the remain cause.
I wouldn't worry. The City boys will rub their hands as Mark Carney prints a load more money to make us normal folks even worse off and that will then be blamed on Brexit.
Of course I ignored it as it's not in any way relevant to the discussion about where the money is going but anyway the EU mentioned they would ask for it during the referendum and it was the leave campaign simply criticised the EU for interfering in 'our' election. Who knew the EU would actually be a big part of Brexit.
Ah the old "ad hominem". Don't attack the content, attack the author's reliability. It's an independent spending watchdog. But that's OK, attack this lot as well. Make sure you attack them as unreliable rather than the facts of what they are saying:
https://fullfact.org/europe/does-brexit-dividend-exist/
https://www.ft.com/content/0322d13c-73ce-11e8-b6ad-3823e4384287
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13086
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/no-such-thing-as-a-brexit-dividend/
You really need to avoid your alt-right news feeds. They lie.
Anyway, I've had enough of responding to you so you're back on ignore. Go for it, I won't contradict anything you say so you can make anything up.
Vin
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Your post means one of two things:
1. Either Imps was wrong and they did mean they intended to spend that on the NHS, or
2. Imps is right and You believe the message they said on the bus and in which case, Imps must be reading this thinking you are stupid.
