Off Topic Politics Thread
- Thread starter ChilcoSaint
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45433403
British born boy that was on holiday with friends of family in Belgium being denied entry back in to the UK because his passport was revoked and his mother can't leave the UK to go to him for the same reason.
British born boy that was on holiday with friends of family in Belgium being denied entry back in to the UK because his passport was revoked and his mother can't leave the UK to go to him for the same reason.
and the serious political news of the day, Boris
http://newsthump.com/2018/09/07/bor...fter-discovering-he-****ed-an-entire-country/
http://newsthump.com/2018/09/07/bor...fter-discovering-he-****ed-an-entire-country/
Most telling news of the day is the "co-incidence" of Blair talking about a new centrist party...........at the same time Vince Cable decides to start describing Labour and Tories as being "extremist entryists."
And then Vince Cable not ruling out (by not even answer the question) by News reporters suggesting "moderates" from other parties joining the Liberal party!!!
Oh and the announcement he will "stand down after Brexit" as a carrot for any "moderates" with ambitions of leading a party to think about jumping.
Blind centrists see the Macron example as feasible in Britain.
yeah, I thought that too but how Boris does in his divorce settlement has to be more amusing!
I found Donald Tusk's Bond movie trailer much more amusing:
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Or more seriously you could look at the current state of "no-confidence" votes against Labour MPs by their constituency memberships.
They went after the "4 brexiteers"...........and it worked for them on Field and Hoey but in the heartlands they failed on Mann and Stringer.
Not content with their much publicised anti-semite problems they also held no-confidence votes (and succeeded) against Joan Ryan (chair of Labour's Friend's of Israel group) as well as Gavin Shuker.
So its no secret anymore. Momentum are not just purging moderates or Brexiteers. They are attempting to purge all Jewish or pro-Israel MPs as well.
With Iranian twitterers (including Press TV from Iran) broadcasting these votes live!!!!
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I'm confused ... The Remainer Chuka Umunna is criticising no-confidence votes on Brexiteer MPs?
No-confidence votes in pro-Israel MPs are reported to imply that these are anti-semitic, especially when one of the MPs is Jewish
Blair won't keep out of it and states that Labour is now permanently lost to who?
If they're left of him then they might just as easily be actual Socialists as Communists and Trotskyites
Just another demonstration of the way Labour can't help attempting self-destruction alongside a press which is only to happy to magnify any issues?
Is the Tory Party completely free of anti-semitism? Given some members and MPs views on 'Johnny-Foreigner' I have to sincerely doubt that, they're just better at hiding it?
No-confidence votes in pro-Israel MPs are reported to imply that these are anti-semitic, especially when one of the MPs is Jewish
Blair won't keep out of it and states that Labour is now permanently lost to who?
If they're left of him then they might just as easily be actual Socialists as Communists and Trotskyites
Just another demonstration of the way Labour can't help attempting self-destruction alongside a press which is only to happy to magnify any issues?
Is the Tory Party completely free of anti-semitism? Given some members and MPs views on 'Johnny-Foreigner' I have to sincerely doubt that, they're just better at hiding it?
Time to throw Momentum supporters out of the Labour Party. Time to rid the party of pro-Brexit supporters. Time to remove anti-Semitism from within the ranks. Time for Labour to cleanse itself of this filth. Time for Chuka Umuna to become the leader and hopefully the next PM.
So the labour party needs to reform itself into what YOU think it should be, to exclude members who may have different views to YOU and it must become a pro- europe, anti-brexit party...sounds democratic as ****.
Whatever your opinions about Brexit, it is going to happen and continually banging on about what needs to happen to suit your own agenda is just howling at the moon.
What we need is a valid opposition party to counter how the Tories think the world should operate, and if that means Labour becomes a more traditional socialist party like it used to be in order to oppose the government then so be it.
We've had New Labour, imho it was just a watered down Tory clone run by self serving career politicians - personally I think we're well rid of that version of labour.
I agree with your second point about being a serious opposition party. Regarding Brexit, IMO, JC would have been better to have kept his counsel over Brexit, and allowed his MPs to make up their own minds regarding Brexit. And if it meant large chunks of his party opposing Brexit, whilst he abstained on the issue, that would have been so much better.
As for Labour being anti-Semite, I do not think so for one minute that it is.
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“Is the Tory Party completely free of anti-semitism? Given some members and MPs views on 'Johnny-Foreigner' I have to sincerely doubt that, they're just better at hiding it?”
They don’t need to hide it.
The media hides it for them.
Labour itself isn't I agree but it is now controlled by Momentum who are. They also have some "moderates" like Naz Shah, who has a habit of re-tweeting anti semitic posts. Not just historically. She had to "apologise" again last year for one that could not ever be "misunderstood." One that stated the victims of the "Rotherham and elsewhere should shut their mouths. For the good of diversity"
That statement was from a parody account but she "liked" and re-tweeted it. There is most definitely an anti-semite mood within Momentum and with a select few MPs that aren't associated with Momentum. That doesn't mean the bulk of the party are anti-semite though.
And of course as said above the Tories are not clean from forms of racism whether casual or not. The difference being that it is nowhere near the level of Labour.
The 'extremists' Blair says Labour may be permanently lost to, are the ordinary working people who started the Labour Movement in the first place.
That said, there is a vacuum at the centre of British politics at the moment. Not sure Blair or Cable are the men to fill it.
Labour is not controlled by Momentum, that's a nonsense. The party is a completely democratic entity, more so than it has ever been. It's the grassroots of the party that has become increasingly enfranchised in recent years.
I have yet to meet a self declared member of Momentum in my local branch, but it has witnessed an upsurge in grass roots activism.
I didn't even mention anti-semitism because although it exists, it's not policy by any of the parties and the various accusations of it are just weapons to disrupt and divide any chance of party solidarity.
I don't agree that JC should keep his opinions to himself as leader. He's a long-time euro sceptic so it would be hypocritical and weak of him to sit back and not try and steer the party towards his way of thinking. He didn't accept the leadership to be a figurehead, he took the job on to actually lead.
Everything you say on this matter is skewed by the fact that you are a remainer, and so you'll never accept any situation that doesn't promise an end to Brexit. That's your right of course, however continually trying to shoehorn the world into an image that fits this desired outcome is naive and ultimately pointless because things are going to change regardless and persisting with Brexit denial is why we are in the ****ty position the country finds itself regarding our negotiations.
If Umunna wants to start a new centrist party then good luck to him and everyone else who supports it, but saying you want to do it and instead using all your time in fighting the current leadership doesn't make sense - we end up with a fractured, weak and divided opposition that can't carry out the role it should be doing.
Umunna is an opportunist, and would hitch onto any ideology that would give him power. As Blairism isn't likely to make a swift return to the labour party, if he has any character he will leave the Labour party and actually set out to do what he says and start a new party like the closet Tory that he actually is.
My idea of Labour is to continue being part of the Social Democratic grouping of parties in the EU. I am sure is it the belief of Chuka Umunna and countless other Labour voters. I believe the Labour movement is stronger within the EU than being cut adrift. With a leader that is a eurosceptic that is going to be difficult. The reason for Umunna remaining in the Labour party is it gives him strength. Sorry we are at loggerheads over this but I am totally behind Chuka and his ilk. I´ll let it rest there.
I will throw one other bomb at you. Do you notice Theresa May smirking these days? I just wonder if she is plotting to put the proverbial "bomb" under her entire party by pulling off one of the best political stunts ever and asking Brussels to drop Article 50 as near as possible to 29 March if her party, and indeed the House of Commons fails to fall into line with her Chequers deal. She will resign, leaving the Conservatives with no time to elect a new leader to proceed with Brexit for the 29 March deadline.
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If she resigns trying to force a "suspension" of article 50 then you are assuming that Labour numbers AND Tory remainers will vote it through. We have just seen confidence motions against Labour MPs voting in favour of the government yet they would have to vote to "prop the Tory party up" if they vote in favour of a suspension.
Will it not get the same vociferous faux-outrage from Labour "members" as the "Brexit 4?"
Will it not get the same vociferous faux-outrage from Labour "members" as the "Brexit 4?"
Happy to look as stupid as you wish if we don't utterly wreck the economy with the no-deal exit that the nutters are now aiming for. It'll be catastrophic.
Being thought stupid costs nothing. A recession literally kills people.
Vin
But it doesn't work. It cannot work. The EU has been completely clear that the UK/Eire border cannot be fudged. I know leavers don't want that bit to be true but it's undeniable and cannot be sidestepped. The head of the Northern Irish police service was clear on the implications of that; it'll bring the IRA back. Her plan also ignores, utterly, the trade in services on which our economy relies. We'll also still be subject to the ECJ for many matters, something that won't get through parliament.
The best outcome for the stay camp is that people realise that the Brexit nutters have literally no plan. (None. Look for it. Twice. All they have is that "no deal" will fill their pockets) If people don't notice, the stock market and money markets will (I predict in January, when the prospect of no-deal becomes real, there'll be chaos). Then there's enough of an uproar that we delay leaving, vote to stay and cut immigration under the rules that were and are available in the EU.
Because, let's face it, immigration was a very large part of why people voted leave. Must have been, because there were no other clear plans identified by leave bar the mythical £350m a week for the NHS (an utter and total falsehood), a smooth exit (give me strength) and negotiating trade agreements with countries (with whom we have already have trade agreements via the EU).
Vin
Vin
All I can say is we managed very well before we went into the so called EU. Also when we went in it was just a trade agreement. We managed the irish border then ok when they joined. A lot of new rules have been added since then I gather which is the stumbling block.
I hope you are not suggesting that the only reason the IRA stopped was because they joined the EU?
Immigration did play a big part it is true. In England and Wales the vote statitistics were heavy in favour of leaving the EU. Probably because the people in these areas were taking the brunt of the immigration problem.
Scotland and NI brought the stay vote well and truly into the equation.
I did not take immigration into account when placing my vote I made my choice based on other things.
Just to make things clear you should not assume from this debate that I voted to leave. I just don’t agree with some of the things that have been bandied about on here and their reasonings.
All the major parties wanted to stay in the EU and thought the people would agree to stay in. It is no wonder they had no plans in place the result was a surprise to them all.
It isn’t going to be the best thing if no reasonable compromise is reached it will be just as bad for Europe as us of that there is no doubt. That’s why I think there will be an agreement of sorts.
My only worry is that the party having to negotiate a leave deal doesn’t seem to have a clue as to what to do.
Finally, I totally agree it is going to be chaos come January through March no matter whether we have any deal or not.
All I can say is we managed very well before we went into the so called EU. Also when we went in it was just a trade agreement. We managed the irish border then ok when they joined. A lot of new rules have been added since then I gather which is the stumbling block.
I hope you are not suggesting that the only reason the IRA stopped was because they joined the EU?
Immigration did play a big part it is true. In England and Wales the vote statitistics were heavy in favour of leaving the EU. Probably because the people in these areas were taking the brunt of the immigration problem.
Scotland and NI brought the stay vote well and truly into the equation.
I did not take immigration into account when placing my vote I made my choice based on other things.
Just to make things clear you should not assume from this debate that I voted to leave. I just don’t agree with some of the things that have been bandied about on here and their reasonings.
All the major parties wanted to stay in the EU and thought the people would agree to stay in. It is no wonder they had no plans in place the result was a surprise to them all.
It isn’t going to be the best thing if no reasonable compromise is reached it will be just as bad for Europe as us of that there is no doubt. That’s why I think there will be an agreement of sorts.
My only worry is that the party having to negotiate a leave deal doesn’t seem to have a clue as to what to do.
Finally, I totally agree it is going to be chaos come January through March no matter whether we have any deal or not.