Off Topic Politics Thread

[Onionman]

Point fairly spectacularly missed there Vin. Thatcher declared war on those communities and on the Trade Union movement in general. Mining as an industry was in decline - it’s how that decline was managed that’s being discussed.

As for the loss of the steel industry which was so closely linked to mining - that was a result of a deliberate policy of prioritising investment capitalism over manufacturing; for political reasons (bankers don’t join trade unions)

As you know, I'm not fond of black/white arguments, so I merely pointed out that the narrative of 'Thatcher destroyed mining all on her own' is simplistic.

Well now you've brought steel into it. I'm from Sheffield so I do know a little bit about this.

1. My brother worked for British Steel. At Orgreave, as it happens. He spent five years working double shifts. A double shift was 16 hours. He worked four hours then slipped into his sleeping bag for 12 hours' kip. (He can sleep for England). So he did four hours' work, then slept for four hours while he was paid, then for another eight hours while he was paid time and a half. He would stress that everyone was working similarly. Could/should that have continued?

2. Sheffield employs very few people in steelmaking. Tragic. About twelve years ago - so I don't know how true it is today - Sheffield was producing more steel than it did in its (level of employment) heyday. Good.

It's never as simple as people would have you believe. Life is nuanced. Accept it and turn your back on slogans and simple, one-cause explanations.

Vin

 

[Archers Road]

As you know, I'm not fond of black/white arguments, so I merely pointed out that the narrative of 'Thatcher destroyed mining all on her own' is simplistic.

Well now you've brought steel into it. I'm from Sheffield so I do know a little bit about this.

1. My brother worked for British Steel. At Orgreave, as it happens. He spent five years working double shifts. A double shift was 16 hours. He worked four hours then slipped into his sleeping bag for 12 hours' kip. (He can sleep for England). So he did four hours' work, then slept for four hours while he was paid, then for another eight hours while he was paid time and a half. He would stress that everyone was working similarly. Could/should that have continued?

2. Sheffield employs very few people in steelmaking. Tragic. About twelve years ago - so I don't know how true it is today - Sheffield was producing more steel than it did in its (level of employment) heyday. Good.

It's never as simple as people would have you believe. Life is nuanced. Accept it and turn your back on slogans and simple, one-cause explanations.

Vin

All fair comments, I'll concede. I've heard similar (apocryphal) stories about the docks in their heyday, and no, of course those practices shouldnot have been allowed to continue.

Margaret Thatcher took a sledgehammer to crack a nut though, did deliberate and vindictive damage to hundreds of communities , and bequeathed a legacy of resentment that certainly contributed to the tragedy of Brexit.

That, anyway , is my take on it.

On steel - when I was at school in Southampton in the 1970s, I remember a geography teacher saying to us "when you go to the canteen for lunch, have a look at what is written on every one of your knives and forks." Every one of them had the word "Sheffield " stamped on them .

 

[Saints_Alive]

Christ sake, having an opinion and criticising the Israel Government about its' actions in Gaza is not being "anti-semitic". People are not complaining because they are Jewish it is because what they are doing is just wrong in some people's opinion. Are we not free to have an opinion about any Government in any country in the World without accusations of being prejudiced against their whole race?.
The whole Corbyn/ Labour anti-semitic row feels like a bit of a witch hunt to me.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Christ sake, having an opinion and criticising the Israel Government about its' actions in Gaza is not being "anti-semitic". People are not complaining because they are Jewish it is because what they are doing is just wrong in some people's opinion. Are we not free to have an opinion about any Government in any country in the World without accusations of being prejudiced against their whole race?.
The whole Corbyn/ Labour anti-semitic row feels like a bit of a witch hunt to me.

Spot on SA. Some of the Israeli government’s actions with regard to their Palestinian population in the last 70 years have bordered on war crimes, and these things need pointing out, not suppressing.

 

[Onionman]

Christ sake, having an opinion and criticising the Israel Government about its' actions in Gaza is not being "anti-semitic". People are not complaining because they are Jewish it is because what they are doing is just wrong in some people's opinion. Are we not free to have an opinion about any Government in any country in the World without accusations of being prejudiced against their whole race?.
The whole Corbyn/ Labour anti-semitic row feels like a bit of a witch hunt to me.

I think the problem is that people aren't blaming Israel, they are blaming Jews. Plenty of Jews in the UK have very clear views on the evil being done by Israel and resent being attacked wholesale with Israel.

Here's an example:

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Vin

 

[VocalMinority]

I think the problem is that people aren't blaming Israel, they are blaming Jews. Plenty of Jews in the UK have very clear views on the evil being done by Israel and resent being attacked wholesale with Israel.

Here's an example:

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Vin

I agree. The thing is the parts of this anti seminitsm 'definition' that Labour supposedly hasn't adopted says Isreal and not Jews.

For example :

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis"

Now I compare every nation's policies to those of the Nazi's including our own so if i don't do that im holding isreal to a higher standard than any other nation which seems to contradict this:

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

I just think this definition needs to be worked on.

 

[San Tejón]

Christ sake, having an opinion and criticising the Israel Government about its' actions in Gaza is not being "anti-semitic". People are not complaining because they are Jewish it is because what they are doing is just wrong in some people's opinion. Are we not free to have an opinion about any Government in any country in the World without accusations of being prejudiced against their whole race?.
The whole Corbyn/ Labour anti-semitic row feels like a bit of a witch hunt to me.

The witch hunt bit is probably the key part.
Corbyn’s ratings need to be attacked and weakened, especially with a potential election in the air.
I think it has all become very orchestrated with the Conservative supporting media being only too pleased to give it plenty of air time, almost on a loop.
I am sure, were the media to look, they would find an equal amount of issues between the Conservatives and the Muslim community.

 

[Saints_Alive]

The witch hunt bit is probably the key part.
Corbyn’s ratings need to be attacked and weakened, especially with a potential election in the air.
I think it has all become very orchestrated with the Conservative supporting media being only too pleased to give it plenty of air time, almost on a loop.
I am sure, were the media to look, they would find an equal amount of issues between the Conservatives and the Muslim community.

Windrush was a far bigger concern to me, some of them really were being treated appallingly through Government policy.

 

[Saints_Alive]

I think the problem is that people aren't blaming Israel, they are blaming Jews. Plenty of Jews in the UK have very clear views on the evil being done by Israel and resent being attacked wholesale with Israel.

Here's an example:

You must log in or register to see media

Vin

I would never blame a Jewish person living here for what is happening in Gaza, as I 'm sure most normal thinking people wouldn't.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552

Here's the BBC's guide to what's going on.

 

[Saints_Alive]

This statement is a bit melodramatic in my view...

Last week the UK's three main Jewish newspapers published the same front page, warning that a government led by Mr Corbyn would pose an "existential threat to Jewish life".

What are that expecting to happen to Jews in this country under Corbyn, burning of Synagogues and Jewish properties?. The truth is that they will have the same rights under the same law as any other UK citizen.

 

[Whiteley Saint]

This statement is a bit melodramatic in my view...

Last week the UK's three main Jewish newspapers published the same front page, warning that a government led by Mr Corbyn would pose an "existential threat to Jewish life".

What are that expecting to happen to Jews in this country under Corbyn, burning of Synagogues and Jewish properties?. The truth is that they will have the same rights under the same law as any other UK citizen.

Yes, it's difficult to know what they mean unless you've read the papers and seen the detail. The opposition would be huge so they wouldn't be in Government for long!

 

[San Tejón]

This statement is a bit melodramatic in my view...

Last week the UK's three main Jewish newspapers published the same front page, warning that a government led by Mr Corbyn would pose an "existential threat to Jewish life".

What are that expecting to happen to Jews in this country under Corbyn, burning of Synagogues and Jewish properties?. The truth is that they will have the same rights under the same law as any other UK citizen.

A genuine question.
Do the Jewish papers lean towards the right of politics, like several other papers, giving them an alternative reason for the attacks on Corbyn?
As I say, this is a genuine question and not an attempt to smear or belittle what they consider to be genuine concerns.

 

[greensaint]

This statement is a bit melodramatic in my view...

Last week the UK's three main Jewish newspapers published the same front page, warning that a government led by Mr Corbyn would pose an "existential threat to Jewish life".

What are that expecting to happen to Jews in this country under Corbyn, burning of Synagogues and Jewish properties?. The truth is that they will have the same rights under the same law as any other UK citizen.

I just gave up with an interview of a couple on the Today Programme last week. Claiming they were 'terrified' as the Labour Party was like the Nazis around 1935. Erm.

There is so much wrong with Labour, Corbyn and indeed a lot of our political system at present. To cry wolf hysterically, with a political agenda, doesn't help remedy it.

The lady interviewed might've worried more about a party who doesn't expel a member calling women 'sugar tits' explaining it's just high spirits.

 

[greensaint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45034092

Trump shows how he's in touch with the rest of Americans.

Actually it's a bit grim at Sainsburys (Ferndown) these days. M/C helmets set the alarm off all the bloody time. I now just walk away saying 'send the police around'.
They've not turned up yet.

 

[San Tejón]

I just gave up with an interview of a couple on the Today Programme last week. Claiming they were 'terrified' as the Labour Party was like the Nazis around 1935. Erm.

There is so much wrong with Labour, Corbyn and indeed a lot of our political system at present. To cry wolf hysterically, with a political agenda, doesn't help remedy it.

The lady interviewed might've worried more about a party who doesn't expel a member calling women 'sugar tits' explaining it's just high spirits.

According to one of my sisters, Corbyn is so far left he is a Russian.
I really, really should have referred her to the amount of money the Conservative Party receives as donations, from a variety of Russians, but I really couldn’t be bothered.
She gets all her political news from the Express.

 

[benditlikeabanana]

I have yet seen anyone propose a deal that Palestinians would agree to , except the handing over to all land and all Jews leaving. Different offers ( 6 now since 1946) have been rejected by them. Israel have bent over backwards to get a deal, but now they are probably thinking **** em, anything we propose they will reject. Its like a divorce when one of the party will not agree to anything the other proposes. if anyone has seen what the Palestinians propose I would be interested in reading it

 

[SaintinSerbia]

I have yet seen anyone propose a deal that Palestinians would agree to , except the handing over to all land and all Jews leaving. Different offers ( 6 now since 1946) have been rejected by them. Israel have bent over backwards to get a deal, but now they are probably thinking **** em, anything we propose they will reject. Its like a divorce when one of the party will not agree to anything the other proposes. if anyone has seen what the Palestinians propose I would be interested in reading it

just ..... wow

 

[SaintinSerbia]

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[ImpSaint]

I thought that their membership was on the increase due to how Brexit is being handled. I know nothing of the leader, but if they have a strong leader that Ukip supporters can get behind then they cause some upsets. They need a Farage type of person who looks for a fight and does not back down, both May and Corbyn come across as weak and not willing to fight the EU. You may not like their views, but your average Jo Blog on the street may relate to Ukip more than the other parties.

I think it is very easy to assume UKIP's rise is all down to how Brexit is going but that is the usual "straight line" correlation that the "bubble" assumes and very dangerous because it ignores what has really happened all in the space of a few weeks.

The Brexit shambles undoubtedly added to it both from Tory and Labour voters at the last election (tribal Labour voters aren't overly happy.)

However it ignores 2 completely contradictory happenings!!

Firstly Farage hinted at a return and whether you like him or not he is a big draw to many.
Secondly Batton (their current leader) jumped on the "islam bashing" bandwagon.

Now the reason I say they are contradictory is because Farage refused to take that route and voiced concerns over that kind of move. He doesn't agree with it at all.

So pinning that rise purely on Tory failings r.e. Brexit is the usual hands over eyes and fingers over ears that has caused so many problems already.

Ian Thurwood is right. The centre is dead in terms of mass appeal and it is now a battle of left v right. The problem here is that everybody is banging on about the Tories covering the right, when in reality they are desperately trying to cover as much centre as possible oblivious to the change in voters. Even to a vast amount of Tory voters they are not right wing anymore and that is why Corbyn is doing so well. His team (obviously on the same theme as Trump and other movements that gain ground quickly) have clearly interpreted things correctly and are not bothering with the centre. They are focusing on the left. Lib Dems do the centre and aren't getting many votes (in terms of diluting the "left" vote.)

The Tories are trying to cover the centre and losing masses of votes to UKIP (and abstention.)

Laughable to keep hearing people banging on about the Tories covering the right wing though. They are full on Blair type centrists desperately trying to cling on the 90s.