Look what you started for the last couple of pagesMaybe we should have a religion thread. Should cause a few bust ups!
EDIT: I really don't think that would be a good idea so please don't.
Off Topic Politics Thread
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And the worst thing? It's done for reasons of love. They do it because they love you; that's the worst poison of all. They have been brainwashed as children and they genuinely believe that it's good for you if they do the same to you. They think they are saving you from eternal damnation. And if a bit of free thought and rationality makes you doubt whether they are right, they shun you (for reasons I've never quite got, what with their claim to owning the world's supply of compassion and tolerance). It's also odd that it's always the religious ones (the ones armed with compassion and tolerance) who turn away from the atheists, not the other way round.
Religion turns love for your fellow man into a reason not to talk to them. How unutterably, ineffably pathetic. If there really is a god who designed all this*, he's royally f***ed it up.
Vin
* I await evidence
Soon as religions don't see LGBT+ people as a lower form of life then "straight people" , is when I start respecting them a little more. Until then meh.
I'm agnostic (was baptised a Catholic but never confirmed) and I'm interested in the topic of religion and belief. For me atheism (and by "atheism" I mean the active belief that there is no God; I suspect that many people who say they're atheists are actually agnostics) is just as illogical and just as much of a belief as any religious position. There's no evidence either way on the existence of God so the only logical position is agnosticism.
As for religion being the root of all evil and the idea that eliminating it will make the world a better place, I'm not sure about that. There have been a number of countries that have practised state atheism and it's generally not gone too well. A quick look at wikipedia produces the following list: the Soviet Union, Albania, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, China, Cuba, North Korea. Hmmm, not the best advert for state atheism.
As I say I'm not religious myself but I do think religion has played a very important role in creating the society we live in. Our laws have evolved out of Christian beliefs and many people still "feel" Christian somehow even if they don't practise - lots go to church at Christmas and/or Easter when they wouldn't at any other time. Another concern is also that the absence of some sort of God figure as a superior moral authority undermines any attempt to create a common morality - why should I accept your moral position is superior to mine? - and ultimately leads to the adoption of "might is right".
As for religion being the root of all evil and the idea that eliminating it will make the world a better place, I'm not sure about that. There have been a number of countries that have practised state atheism and it's generally not gone too well. A quick look at wikipedia produces the following list: the Soviet Union, Albania, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, China, Cuba, North Korea. Hmmm, not the best advert for state atheism.
As I say I'm not religious myself but I do think religion has played a very important role in creating the society we live in. Our laws have evolved out of Christian beliefs and many people still "feel" Christian somehow even if they don't practise - lots go to church at Christmas and/or Easter when they wouldn't at any other time. Another concern is also that the absence of some sort of God figure as a superior moral authority undermines any attempt to create a common morality - why should I accept your moral position is superior to mine? - and ultimately leads to the adoption of "might is right".
Religion as I see it started out as a way of explaining the unexplainable, then became a tool to create an obedient society and eventually morphed into a way of maintaining the power of the ruling classes. I see no need for any of the religious organisation to have any real power in this age of man.
If somebody gets comfort from believing in an imaginary "greater power" then that's great for them, however if that view is then imposed in any shape or form on someone who doesn't believe, then it becomes destructive and devisive. I don't believe any religion has the right to own the "good" values that allow a society to function, as the majority of societal mores make complete logical sense in maintaining stability and don't need any type of God to justify them.
I have never understand the concept of faith, and quite frankly am the type of personality that doesn't like being told what to do by anybody so one thing I am grateful for is that I live somewhere that is mostly secular in government, and little real interference from religious organisations. I hope it stays that way as I react badly to people who try to force me to believe in magic, or even try to make me toe a line drawn by people who do.
The fact that this subject is being discussed without anybody getting a loud knocking on their door is a good sign, long may it continue.
If somebody gets comfort from believing in an imaginary "greater power" then that's great for them, however if that view is then imposed in any shape or form on someone who doesn't believe, then it becomes destructive and devisive. I don't believe any religion has the right to own the "good" values that allow a society to function, as the majority of societal mores make complete logical sense in maintaining stability and don't need any type of God to justify them.
I have never understand the concept of faith, and quite frankly am the type of personality that doesn't like being told what to do by anybody so one thing I am grateful for is that I live somewhere that is mostly secular in government, and little real interference from religious organisations. I hope it stays that way as I react badly to people who try to force me to believe in magic, or even try to make me toe a line drawn by people who do.
The fact that this subject is being discussed without anybody getting a loud knocking on their door is a good sign, long may it continue.
I've had a similar thing Beddy. My older sister became a born again, and clumsy attempts to help me see the light ensued over a number of years. I found this insulting and undermining to my integrity and intelligence. We have an utterly formal relationship, and there is an emotional distance between my sister and my parents too. It's sad on different levels.
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One definition of atheism is "lack of belief in the existence of god or gods". That's where I sit. No evidence, so I don't believe it. I also have a lack of belief in fairies, leprechauns or alien abductions. No evidence, so I don't believe them. The onus of proof lies with the one making the claim.
A discussion of morality would be huge but I would suggest that relying on religions* (believed to be over 10,000 currently) to come up with a common morality would be rather hopeful, to say the least. Secular morality could be summed up as "create a world you'd want to live in regardless of how the dice fall on who you are when you're born" would have much more commonality in my opinion.
Vin
*To clarify the scope of the problem, at least one religion specifically condones slavery.
Man I so sympathise...............My sisters husband was even worse than her. While he was alive every conversation was turned somehow into a religious quote. He treated my sister well so I had no complaints on that front but boy oh boy there were times he was lucky I have good control of my temper. He so riled me at times with his constant religious quotes and chants.
Even when I was in the forces he was constantly berating me and quoting the commandments. When I reminded him the only time I was prepared to kill was if someone was trying to kill me. It made no difference. He claimed if I hadn't joined the armed forces I wouldn't have been put in harms way. Needless to say when I said that I and others were in a way defending his right to have free speech and to worship who he wants. He was of the opinion there wasn't such people!!!
Religion certainly blinds some people to reality............
I missed this response earlier. It's spot on imo. Atheism is, in effect a religion. Which explains the tendancy of some of it's proponents towards fundamentalism and an excess of dogmatic piety
Look what you started for the last couple of pages
Yes and I was right we are better off not discussing it. A lot of people cry foul at prejudices, and quite rightly, but there are some on here sailing very close to the wind when it comes to religion. People are entitled to their beliefs and most religious people are good people. People do bad things in the name of religion but look carefully at the religions and you will see what they claim to be following is not there.
I thought this was the politics thread. Trump has been thwarted and I am smirking about that........for the moment.
Well said Whiteley, I agree entirely. When it comes to religion, whatever we might feel, other people are entitled to believe whatever they want. And this is the Politics thread after all!
Did anyone see the Tracey Ullman show? Excellent impersonations of Angela Merkel and Nicola Sturgeon.
I missed this response earlier. It's spot on imo. Atheism is, in effect a religion. Which explains the tendancy of some of it's proponents towards fundamentalism and an excess of dogmatic piety
OK, I'll rise to the bait.
I'll assume you're Christian. Presumably that means you don't believe in Shiva, Zeus or Wotan. (You're an atheist too. I'm just atheist about one more god than you.)
My lack of belief in Yahweh being a deity is identical in every respect to your lack of belief in Zeus being a deity. You may want to reread that as it exactly identifies how I feel.
Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who thinks that. Go on, give it a go. Consider your feelings about Zeus not being a deity. It's not hard, is it? It doesn't require a world view, structure or dogma not to believe in Zeus. You don't need a book or any of the trappings of a religion not to believe in Zeus. You can do it just with the power of your mind. No evidence, no belief. You don't need a creed or someone to tell you how not to believe in Zeus.
Hopefully then you'll see just how daft it is to call atheism a religion.
Vin
Very topical. I got accused today (out of the blue) of being an idiot by my brother because I didn't want to go to church tomorrow.
Brother: "Mum would be turning in her grave"
Me: "No, we cremated her"
Brother: "Well she would anyway. She is with god and would want you to be there to talk to her"
Me: "Do you still believe in Father Christmas?"
The convo really went downhill after that. It was saved by football...till half time.
Brother: "Mum would be turning in her grave"
Me: "No, we cremated her"
Brother: "Well she would anyway. She is with god and would want you to be there to talk to her"
Me: "Do you still believe in Father Christmas?"
The convo really went downhill after that. It was saved by football...till half time.
That is bit of a strange call IMO. Suicide bombers are convinced that their action will take them to "the promised land." You can argue that they have been brainwashed by people who are using religion to persuade them to undertake that course of action but there is no question that the suicide bomber is following their religious beliefs.
It's quite a co-incidence really. Like a poster above I was "forced" to go to Church (catholic) every Sunday despite being an unbeliever from "god knows how young." I am both baptised and confirmed. I liked a girl who was being confirmed when I was 14 and so at the time it was of course a no brainer.
It was just routine. Sunday morning family goes to mass. Age 14 I convinced my Dad to let me go on my own to the later mass and of course went cycling round the woods every week until I got caught out when my Dad went to the late mass himself and asked me where I had been. Then I was frogmarched agina for 6 months until I was 16 and I said I wasn't going any more because now I could make my own chances. Unlike other posters my Dad said "fair enough, you;re an adult now" and that was the end of it. He still talks about religion and things surrounding church a lot to me but not in a "preachy" way. It's more what people say, sometimes something in a sermon and how it relates to what we are talking to. A bit like what I am saying about a co-incidence where he will say "thats funny, On Sunday..........."
I say it is a bit of a co-incidence because I chose to send my kids to the local catholic school, not for the belief side of things, more the discipline side and am quite comfortable in that decision. They can make the same choice as I did and they aren't baptised.
Anyway my youngest son (10 years old) wanted to go to the school activity session today which of course was religious and then at the end parents went for a bit of tea and then.......mass. My first mass for 25 years. So we all went, my 3 children, my wife and I. My Portuguese wife is actually baptised catholic as well which is amusing in regards to what the content of the latter of this post will be about. So we were polite, sat through it all. We both know from youth the process and my middle son even read out part of one the readings. He wanted to do this. I don;t know if he believes or not but it is his choice.
We didn't partake in communion although all 3 kids wanted to walk up and be blessed (with the arms crossed across their chests) without taking "holy communion." Got home and not a mention of religion from anyone.
Now the part about my wife. Her mother converted to Jehovah witness after my wife was born. My wife intermittently goes to Jehovahs meetings as more of a social thing because a lot of Portuguese in Lincoln are Jehovahs. Her younger sister (7 years younger than my wife who is 7 years younger than me) is a full on Jehovah (no birthdays and no Christmas) but we get on really well (No I don't mean dirty old 41 year old eyeing up the 27 year old sister in law...although she is a pretty girl.)
Because of this social circle I often have occasions where we do have dinner sometimes with Jehovah guests and of course they ask if they can say their prayers before we eat. So of course we wait for them and then we all eat and everybody is happy.
On one occasion though one pair of guests we had round talked about nothing else than religion. I didn't have a problem with that so much but they kept on badgering my eldest son about his "beliefs" doing the whole persuasion thing, selling it, questioning why he didn't believe with every sentence beginning with "but..."
After a few minutes I said the man "He isn't religious mate, can we move onto a different subject." but the guy wouldn't give up wit his "but....." sentences. So I said "we aren't religious and I'd rather we changed the subject if that is OK." The guy looked as if I had just insulted him in the worst way, told his wife to pick up her bacg and coat and then marched to the door saying "we will show ourselves out." Caused a bit of a problem after the event because of course my wife gets the evils from a few of them when she goes to the meetings now.
I don;t call myself an atheist. I don't believe in any god but then it isn't a subject I talk about nor do I feel the need to convince others that there is no god. people are free to believe what they want as long as they aren't trying to do a salesman job on my kids and I'll even listen to others preaching to me and try to keep the smirk from my face. It's their choice.
It was just routine. Sunday morning family goes to mass. Age 14 I convinced my Dad to let me go on my own to the later mass and of course went cycling round the woods every week until I got caught out when my Dad went to the late mass himself and asked me where I had been. Then I was frogmarched agina for 6 months until I was 16 and I said I wasn't going any more because now I could make my own chances. Unlike other posters my Dad said "fair enough, you;re an adult now" and that was the end of it. He still talks about religion and things surrounding church a lot to me but not in a "preachy" way. It's more what people say, sometimes something in a sermon and how it relates to what we are talking to. A bit like what I am saying about a co-incidence where he will say "thats funny, On Sunday..........."
I say it is a bit of a co-incidence because I chose to send my kids to the local catholic school, not for the belief side of things, more the discipline side and am quite comfortable in that decision. They can make the same choice as I did and they aren't baptised.
Anyway my youngest son (10 years old) wanted to go to the school activity session today which of course was religious and then at the end parents went for a bit of tea and then.......mass. My first mass for 25 years. So we all went, my 3 children, my wife and I. My Portuguese wife is actually baptised catholic as well which is amusing in regards to what the content of the latter of this post will be about. So we were polite, sat through it all. We both know from youth the process and my middle son even read out part of one the readings. He wanted to do this. I don;t know if he believes or not but it is his choice.
We didn't partake in communion although all 3 kids wanted to walk up and be blessed (with the arms crossed across their chests) without taking "holy communion." Got home and not a mention of religion from anyone.
Now the part about my wife. Her mother converted to Jehovah witness after my wife was born. My wife intermittently goes to Jehovahs meetings as more of a social thing because a lot of Portuguese in Lincoln are Jehovahs. Her younger sister (7 years younger than my wife who is 7 years younger than me) is a full on Jehovah (no birthdays and no Christmas) but we get on really well (No I don't mean dirty old 41 year old eyeing up the 27 year old sister in law...although she is a pretty girl.)
Because of this social circle I often have occasions where we do have dinner sometimes with Jehovah guests and of course they ask if they can say their prayers before we eat. So of course we wait for them and then we all eat and everybody is happy.
On one occasion though one pair of guests we had round talked about nothing else than religion. I didn't have a problem with that so much but they kept on badgering my eldest son about his "beliefs" doing the whole persuasion thing, selling it, questioning why he didn't believe with every sentence beginning with "but..."
After a few minutes I said the man "He isn't religious mate, can we move onto a different subject." but the guy wouldn't give up wit his "but....." sentences. So I said "we aren't religious and I'd rather we changed the subject if that is OK." The guy looked as if I had just insulted him in the worst way, told his wife to pick up her bacg and coat and then marched to the door saying "we will show ourselves out." Caused a bit of a problem after the event because of course my wife gets the evils from a few of them when she goes to the meetings now.
I don;t call myself an atheist. I don't believe in any god but then it isn't a subject I talk about nor do I feel the need to convince others that there is no god. people are free to believe what they want as long as they aren't trying to do a salesman job on my kids and I'll even listen to others preaching to me and try to keep the smirk from my face. It's their choice.
I know some don;t like the Spectator but this one is worth reading and quite topical r.e. the above:
Who will protect Nigeria’s northern Christians?
Nigerians have their own view as to what is really going on: a suspicion fuelled again as I leave one IDP camp at sunset and news comes in that another camp to the east has just been bombed by the Nigerian military, killing and maiming scores of people.
The army later apologises for this ‘error’.But the bigger picture is not about error. If the international community meant anything by its promises such as the UN’s ‘responsibility to protect’ doctrine, then what is happening could not go on. But the international community is uninterested. Governments like ours are uninterested. The world’s media is uninterested.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/who-will-protect-nigerias-northern-christians/
Who will protect Nigeria’s northern Christians?
Nigerians have their own view as to what is really going on: a suspicion fuelled again as I leave one IDP camp at sunset and news comes in that another camp to the east has just been bombed by the Nigerian military, killing and maiming scores of people.
The army later apologises for this ‘error’.But the bigger picture is not about error. If the international community meant anything by its promises such as the UN’s ‘responsibility to protect’ doctrine, then what is happening could not go on. But the international community is uninterested. Governments like ours are uninterested. The world’s media is uninterested.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/who-will-protect-nigerias-northern-christians/
Most of your assumptions in the first paragraph are wrong.
The main difference between you and I on this subject appears to be your absolute insistance that you are right and anyone with a different set of beliefs is wrong; an attitude typically exhibited either by religious zealots or, er, atheists.
Which brings me back to my original point; atheism often manifests as a form of thinking similar in many ways to religious fundamentalism. Hence the intolerance for other belief systems.
I am a atheist. But I wouldn't give a **** if a person worships Mr Blobby. As long as a person respects and treats others as a human being I have no problem if they are religious or not. The problem is many people sadly use religion as a way to spew hate speech at others ( such as lgbt+ etc).
Moving away from religion (yep I know I am as guilty for the topic) and back onto politics (lol, in the 'real world' two conversations you try not to have at a dinner party), who can believe what Donald Trump is up to now?
His order gets overturned but he tweets that he will get it changed again and he warned that "many very bad and dangerous people may be pouring into our country". This is the hatred he is trying to drum up. I cannot see how the president of the USA can openly try to drum up so much hatred. American people what have you done electing this idiot to lead you?
His order gets overturned but he tweets that he will get it changed again and he warned that "many very bad and dangerous people may be pouring into our country". This is the hatred he is trying to drum up. I cannot see how the president of the USA can openly try to drum up so much hatred. American people what have you done electing this idiot to lead you?