Off Topic Politics Thread

[Onionman]

It involves everything from state, religion,law and education. You can not say Islam is just a religion- it's so much more , seems some of you thought I was looking for a fight, just saying to a Muslim, Islam is the person's whole life, what he eats, who he should marry, whose his friends are etc. Obviously not all are the same, but those with strong faith will adhere 100% to Thier book and teachings

The bits in green and red are utterly contradictory and the only one of them that's true is the one in red.

I'll nail my colours to the mast. I detest islam as a religion. I detest it exactly as much as I detest all other religions. Religions are the source of so much horror, fear and loathing. They are not based on any rationality whatsoever and they positively encourage people to suspend their rationality so the religion can survive. The world will only find peace after religion has disappeared.

However, despite that I do not detest muslims. And I certainly don't ever say that all muslims are the same. I know muslims who drink. I know muslims who have married outside their religion (lots of them). You know what? They are all people. Like you. And me. So to say what you're saying is just not true.

And we're still missing the enormous elephant in the room. There isn't a unified islamic faith. You want proof? Get a committed shia and sunni in the same room and ask them the attributes of their religion. Then come back and tell us all what "islam" is.

It's utterly ridiculous to say pretty much any sentence that starts "Group X always..." whether it's a race, a religion or a football team's supporters. I don't care who you say it about, you're wrong. Groups are made up of individuals.

Vin

 

[Libby]

The bits in green and red are utterly contradictory and the only one of them that's true is the one in red.

I'll nail my colours to the mast. I detest islam as a religion. I detest it exactly as much as I detest all other religions. Religions are the source of so much horror, fear and loathing. They are not based on any rationality whatsoever and they positively encourage people to suspend their rationality so the religion can survive. The world will only find peace after religion has disappeared.

However, despite that I do not detest muslims. And I certainly don't ever say that all muslims are the same. I know muslims who drink. I know muslims who have married outside their religion (lots of them). You know what? They are all people. Like you. And me. So to say what you're saying is just not true.

And we're still missing the enormous elephant in the room. There isn't a unified islamic faith. You want proof? Get a committed shia and sunni in the same room and ask them the attributes of their religion. Then come back and tell us all what "islam" is.

It's utterly ridiculous to say pretty much any sentence that starts "Group X always..." whether it's a race, a religion or a football team's supporters. I don't care who you say it about, you're wrong. Groups are made up of individuals.

Vin

Cracking post Vin

 

[Onionman]

as far as I can tell Islam and Christianity only differs in as much as Christians believe Jesus was the son of God and Muslims say he was a prophet?

There are other major differences.

Bible is inspired by god. Quran is literal word of god.

There is no concept of original sin in islam. Man is sinful in life. (So they don't believe that everyone's born sinful because god made such a hash of creating humans that a mythical bloke in a garden ate some fruit which was a Bad Thing and so thousands of years later god had to split himself into parts so that one part of him became human so that god could sacrifice himself to himself in order to atone for god's design original mistake in the garden of Eden. Fancy not believing that!)

Christians go to heaven if they have faith in Jesus. Muslims go if their good works and righteousness outdoes their sinfulness.

In islam hell isn't necessarily forever.

Here's an excellent summary:

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Vin

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

The bits in green and red are utterly contradictory and the only one of them that's true is the one in red.

I'll nail my colours to the mast. I detest islam as a religion. I detest it exactly as much as I detest all other religions. Religions are the source of so much horror, fear and loathing. They are not based on any rationality whatsoever and they positively encourage people to suspend their rationality so the religion can survive. The world will only find peace after religion has disappeared.

However, despite that I do not detest muslims. And I certainly don't ever say that all muslims are the same. I know muslims who drink. I know muslims who have married outside their religion (lots of them). You know what? They are all people. Like you. And me. So to say what you're saying is just not true.

And we're still missing the enormous elephant in the room. There isn't a unified islamic faith. You want proof? Get a committed shia and sunni in the same room and ask them the attributes of their religion. Then come back and tell us all what "islam" is.

It's utterly ridiculous to say pretty much any sentence that starts "Group X always..." whether it's a race, a religion or a football team's supporters. I don't care who you say it about, you're wrong. Groups are made up of individuals.

Vin

I totally agree with your entire post Vin. I abhor the idea of organised religion in any shape or form.

 

[Puck]

Unsurprisingly, a US court has (temporarily) blocked Trump's order:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38864253

 

[TheSecondStain]

The bits in green and red are utterly contradictory and the only one of them that's true is the one in red.

I'll nail my colours to the mast. I detest islam as a religion. I detest it exactly as much as I detest all other religions. Religions are the source of so much horror, fear and loathing. They are not based on any rationality whatsoever and they positively encourage people to suspend their rationality so the religion can survive. The world will only find peace after religion has disappeared.

However, despite that I do not detest muslims. And I certainly don't ever say that all muslims are the same. I know muslims who drink. I know muslims who have married outside their religion (lots of them). You know what? They are all people. Like you. And me. So to say what you're saying is just not true.

And we're still missing the enormous elephant in the room. There isn't a unified islamic faith. You want proof? Get a committed shia and sunni in the same room and ask them the attributes of their religion. Then come back and tell us all what "islam" is.

It's utterly ridiculous to say pretty much any sentence that starts "Group X always..." whether it's a race, a religion or a football team's supporters. I don't care who you say it about, you're wrong. Groups are made up of individuals.

Vin

Completely agree with this. In my opinion, organised religion was a method of keeping the vast uneducated mob under control, be it Christianity, Islam, whatever. Religion promotes order within its followers. It worked. It doesn't work now. Nowadays Catholicism, for example, allows a person to be an absolute **** during the week while obtaining absolution on the Sunday, provided they confess their sins beforehand. So it gives the bad an excuse and the already good don't need it. The World won't be free of violence when organised religion eventually gets the heave-ho, but the twisted bitterness will eventually die out when we realise that there are ordinary human values that can be our moral compass.

 

[Beef]

Unsurprisingly, a US court has (temporarily) blocked Trump's order:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38864253

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Not going to last long sadly

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

The first time I went to Europe, I was naive and therefore quite surprised at how unreligious it was.

Like I figured Spain and Italy would be crazily Catholic and you always see the cathedrals in France, etc.

It's not like everyone in the US is super-religious. On the coasts the most religious people are actually foreigners and immigrants. There are still a lot of people who go to church but it is more of a community/social thing.

It's the Bible Belt aka Trump country that really skews things. Not just because of the number of people but also because of the churches, which are all hell-and-brimstone and tend not to be so tolerant of others. That is evangelical country.

Like I said, it is a culture war. Those places are suffering on account of their backwards-ass teachings and everyone is leaving. The irony being it jacks up the voting power of those left because of the goofy electoral college system.

40% of the country wants Trump impeached. That is crazy. We do not have recall elections here. Impeachment is for like, traitors.

Trump's support has budged very little. He's basically got the same minority he always had who will support him regardless. The other 60-70 percent think he's an idiot. It is crazy how unpopular he is and yet he just got elected.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

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Not going to last long sadly

Not accepting refugees/travelled ban is probably constitutional. Power of congress legitimately delegated to President.

US doesn't have to take in anyone we don't want to. We let Trump decide. He is being a dick about it, but it is in accordance with all domestic and international law.

Not allowing green card/visa holders into the country is a fairly blatant violation of Due Process. I have a hard time seeing how that holds up as any sort of permanent thing.

 

[Archers Road]

Why do atheists feel the need to bang on about god and religion all the time?

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Why do atheists feel the need to bang on about god and religion all the time?

Because they are ATHIESTS, a philosophy based on the specific disavowal of God and religion.

 

[Schad]

Why do atheists feel the need to bang on about god and religion all the time?

I probably qualify as an atheist and I really couldn't give less of a damn so long as no is one legislating on that basis. And that includes other atheists.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

An agnostic is someone who claims they cannot know about the existence of God one way or the other. If you could replace the word "know" with "care less" that would describe me.

 

[Onionman]

Why do atheists feel the need to bang on about god and religion all the time?

We live in times when religion is rather affecting the world. Happy to ignore it but it's probably the major reason for:

1. The general activity going on in the USA (look at Trump's supporters, the fact that the religious right voted heavily for him and what that's driving)
   
2. The travel ban in the USA (Christian v Muslim)
   
3. The horror going on in Syria (Sunni v Shia) - and whose fallout helped Brexit over the line
4. Our PM asking god for guidance (wish I was joking)
   
5. Saudi Arabia talking about starting a nuclear programme (They are Sunni, Iran is Shia)
6. The Middle East (Christians, Sunnis, Shias, you name it)
7. War in Nigeria (Muslim v Christian)
8. War across much of the rest of Africa (Ditto)
9. Pakistan v India, Nuclear (Muslim vs Hindu)
10. Most of the terrorism around the world (everyone v everyone)
11. Worst, the fear of terrorism that's making the world's leaders act like idiots

The list goes on and on.

So, tragically, it's impossible to understand much of what's happening in the world without bringing up religion.

Vin

 

[Archers Road]

We live in times when religion is rather affecting the world. Happy to ignore it but it's probably the major reason for:

1. The general activity going on in the USA (look at Trump's supporters, the fact that the religious right voted heavily for him and what that's driving)
   
2. The travel ban in the USA (Christian v Muslim)
   
3. The horror going on in Syria (Sunni v Shia) - and whose fallout helped Brexit over the line
4. Our PM asking god for guidance (wish I was joking)
   
5. Saudi Arabia talking about starting a nuclear programme (They are Sunni, Iran is Shia)
6. The Middle East (Christians, Sunnis, Shias, you name it)
7. War in Nigeria (Muslim v Christian)
8. War across much of the rest of Africa (Ditto)
9. Pakistan v India, Nuclear (Muslim vs Hindu)
10. Most of the terrorism around the world (everyone v everyone)
11. Worst, the fear of terrorism that's making the world's leaders act like idiots

The list goes on and on.

So, tragically, it's impossible to understand much of what's happening in the world without bringing up religion.

Vin

Just about every one of those is a tribal conflict; religion may be co-opted as justification, but it is hardly the cause.

The exception is the US, where the Trump phenomenon can largely be explained by good old fashioned racism.

The roots of the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism lie in the Arab/Israeli conflict, which is again a tribal war the causes of which have little or nothing to do with religion. Unless you think the Nazi's persecution of the Jews was motivated by religious principle (it wasn't, the Nazis were no more Christian than Trump and most of his supporters).

Not quite sure why you have a problem with our current PM's faith. I have a problem with a lot of her policies, but not her belief in god. If Christian principles like compassion and tolerance inform her thinking, then good luck to her; that would mean she has a lot in common with many of the founders of the Labour Party.

 

[davecg69]

The bits in green and red are utterly contradictory and the only one of them that's true is the one in red.

I'll nail my colours to the mast. I detest islam as a religion. I detest it exactly as much as I detest all other religions. Religions are the source of so much horror, fear and loathing. They are not based on any rationality whatsoever and they positively encourage people to suspend their rationality so the religion can survive. The world will only find peace after religion has disappeared.

However, despite that I do not detest muslims. And I certainly don't ever say that all muslims are the same. I know muslims who drink. I know muslims who have married outside their religion (lots of them). You know what? They are all people. Like you. And me. So to say what you're saying is just not true.

And we're still missing the enormous elephant in the room. There isn't a unified islamic faith. You want proof? Get a committed shia and sunni in the same room and ask them the attributes of their religion. Then come back and tell us all what "islam" is.

It's utterly ridiculous to say pretty much any sentence that starts "Group X always..." whether it's a race, a religion or a football team's supporters. I don't care who you say it about, you're wrong. Groups are made up of individuals.

Vin

 

[Onionman]

Just about every one of those is a tribal conflict; religion may be co-opted as justification, but it is hardly the cause.

The exception is the US, where the Trump phenomenon can largely be explained by good old fashioned racism.

The roots of the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism lie in the Arab/Israeli conflict, which is again a tribal war the causes of which have little or nothing to do with religion. Unless you think the Nazi's persecution of the Jews was motivated by religious principle (it wasn't, the Nazis were no more Christian than Trump and most of his supporters).

Not quite sure why you have a problem with our current PM's faith. I have a problem with a lot of her policies, but not her belief in god. If Christian principles like compassion and tolerance inform her thinking, then good luck to her; that would mean she has a lot in common with many of the founders of the Labour Party.

Why are shia groups in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen all be helping one another? They have no tribal affiliation, just religion. Why are sunnis in Saudi funding madrassas in Indonesia? Nothing in common but religion.


The role of religion in the right wing of the USA is almost boundless. Trump is working to give more freedom for churches openly to support politicians by changing the charity rules. That alone is proof that they are intertwined.


I'd prefer a PM who said she based policy on reason and fact rather than on what she hears in her head as responses to questions asked of a supernatural being for which there is no evidence. Compassion and tolerance are not the property of people with religion and it would be awful to suggest they were.

Spoiler: Long bit on Hitler

As for Adolf Hitler, it's odd how Christians love bringing him up to disown him. Here's an example of his "Atheism". Speech delivered April 12, 1922 published in "My New Order":

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice ...

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."


Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In power, he quoted the same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Plus, on a personal level, the catholic church claims me as one of theirs in their numbers on catholics in the UK. They do it because I was baptised catholic. If they get me, they also get Hitler on exactly the same basis.

Vin

 

[davecg69]

Why are shia groups in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen all be helping one another? They have no tribal affiliation, just religion. Why are sunnis in Saudi funding madrassas in Indonesia? Nothing in common but religion.


The role of religion in the right wing of the USA is almost boundless. Trump is working to give more freedom for churches openly to support politicians by changing the charity rules. That alone is proof that they are intertwined.


I'd prefer a PM who said she based policy on reason and fact rather than on what she hears in her head as responses to questions asked of a supernatural being for which there is no evidence. Compassion and tolerance are not the property of people with religion and it would be awful to suggest they were.

Spoiler: Long bit on Hitler

As for Adolf Hitler, it's odd how Christians love bringing him up to disown him. Here's an example of his "Atheism". Speech delivered April 12, 1922 published in "My New Order":

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice ...

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."


Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In power, he quoted the same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Plus, on a personal level, the catholic church claims me as one of theirs in their numbers on catholics in the UK. They do it because I was baptised catholic. If they get me, they also get Hitler on exactly the same basis.

Vin

I'm right there with you, Vin. Religion is the source of almost every conflict since time immemorial. I have no issue with whatever people wish to believe as long as they A) keep their views to themselves and B) don't try to foist their beliefs or way of life on other people.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I have mentioned on more than one occasion I am sure on here that I am a full blown Atheist.

I was brought up a Catholic, went to catholic school, was an altar boy at church, took first communion, was confirmed, went to mass twice a week (once on a wednesday at school in the chapel) and once on a Sunday.

What changed? Well the total indoctrination led me to seek answers outside of the church. I am also very much into the sciences and Astronomy. Once I studied the outer solar system and the universe as a whole, I came to realise that as the late great Carl Sagan said, we are just a pale blue dot in an insignificant part of the solar system, revolving around an ordinary star in an insignificant part of the vast universe. (Again, to me), we evolved through luck, fortune and science, not some super human conceptual being who put us here.

There lies the issue I have with religion. (To me), all religions are based on human ideas, and there is no real proof. Science deals in absolutes. Religion preys (excuse the pun) on peoples' insecurities and the wanting to live on. I sat back, thought about it and realised there is one thing that humans must live by. One thing my Catholic upbringing taught me. The Ten Commandments. I have adapted them for an Atheist, but even I can see their intention is there and all that is needed to get on with others in the world around and be a nice person:

1. “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
- Believe in yourself and what you are doing. Don't worship anything, you are in control of your destiny. You are the 'god'.
2. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
- Don't mock others for their views on religion. Don't mock others for their views. If if makes someone happier, let them believe. You don't have to agree with all people to get on with life, but can respectfully disagree.
3. “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
- Take one day a week out to recharge yourself, eat healthy, and actually realise how great it is to be alive.
4. “Honor thy father and mother.”
5. “Thou shalt not kill.”
6. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
7. “Thou shalt not steal.”
8. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The only ones I have to justify as an Atheist are 1, 2 & 3. Live by the above and you will have a good life and people may actually like you.

Now in my view ALL of the bad in the word is actually caused by religion and people's differing views on it. Yep everyone is entitled to a view, and my view isn't necessarily right, but it isn't necessarily wrong either. It's my view.

The biggest issue I have at the moment with Trump is that he is bringing together even more than before State and Religion. This causes divisions. I appreciate that like the UK, the US is a largely a 'Christian' country, BUT people from all faiths make up the country and make up the our planet. You don't lose your culture by letting in another religion. The State and Religion should be separate in my opinion.

I call myself a Catholic Atheist. I am Catholic in culture and Atheist in beliefs.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I know I will be at the total other end of the scale to some. My Daughter has married an American of Cuban parents. His mother is as Catholic as the Pope. She knows I was brought up Catholic, and as she puts it "have lost my way with god". I don't argue with her, I let her know that I don't believe, but don't strike her down for her beliefs. She has recently gone through cancer and she said her faith helped her through it. Every other post from her on FaceBook is God related. Out of respect to her I limit my religious views on FaceBook. What I am trying to say is life is full of opinions. respect others and we all get on (see points 1-10 above).

Phew, longest post by me for ever. Not a preach, but a viewpoint.

 

[greensaint]

Just about every one of those is a tribal conflict; religion may be co-opted as justification, but it is hardly the cause.

The exception is the US, where the Trump phenomenon can largely be explained by good old fashioned racism.

The roots of the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism lie in the Arab/Israeli conflict, which is again a tribal war the causes of which have little or nothing to do with religion. Unless you think the Nazi's persecution of the Jews was motivated by religious principle (it wasn't, the Nazis were no more Christian than Trump and most of his supporters).

Not quite sure why you have a problem with our current PM's faith. I have a problem with a lot of her policies, but not her belief in god. If Christian principles like compassion and tolerance inform her thinking, then good luck to her; that would mean she has a lot in common with many of the founders of the Labour Party.

These of course are not inclusive to christians, and sadly some christians fail to demonstrate much evidence of possesing it.

Attitude to religion or faith really is a complex and often emotive subject. As a life long atheist I'd alway looked on passionate christians, for example, with a benign condescending tolerance (I was young and smug). This changed somewhat when I worked on inpatient psychiactric wards. The combination of florid religious belief in psychotic illness and the interference of organised christian representatives in treatment resulted in a rather less tolerant attitude. Of course I consciously reminded myself to be objective and reminded myself the people and situations were not typical. That said I can understand how easily people become polarised by organised religion. You can also face furious attacks from those who think belief trumps (sorry) everything else. When I banned a certain vicar from visiting the ward as he consistantly advised very ill people to stop taking medication I faced some nasty, personal abuse and many false allegations. Luckily I also had the support of a decent manager and collegues. Anyway I never really looked the part of "Satan's tool" as one letter put it.