Off Topic Politics Thread

[ImpSaint]

Corbyn is in an extremely difficult position, trying to keep all Labour voters onside.
I might be wrong but I think there were one heck of a lot of areas, that are traditionally Labour, that voted to leave.
Now he has to contend with pretty much all Labour held seats wanting a second referendum, with there being more than a hint that many would switch to remain, depending on what you read.
He has openly said that he would respect the referendum result, but would, for one, renegotiate a customs union deal - Turkey I believe, have access to the customs union but aren’t part of the EU, so that part should be possible and would help maintain trade and movement of goods. You would think that the Tories, being the self proclaimed party for business, would have considered that option.
Corbyn’s biggest obstacle, with regards to being elected, IMO, isn’t his stance on the EU, it’s the media and it’s unrelenting attack on someone who wants more equality and fairness in this country.
We always get the Government that gets the best media support, which is primarily Conservative.
In the 90s, when Murdoch switched camps, and used his papers to support Blair, Labour had a landslide victory. In the noughties he switched back, iirc, and the Cons got back in, based on their lies about Labour causing the global recession, or such like.

The Murdoch thing is spin. He didn't win those elections. He switched to whoever he thought would win the election. They just sailed with the wind.

And the government of the day is obviously going to get more media "support." No such thing as bad publicity etc. The government is the one that sets the agenda, makes policy. Of course they will dominate the news.

Corbyn's biggest obstacle is that he is far left. He might be the leader of the opposition but the Blairites get favourable coverage, he gets similar coverage to the Tory right wing. The TV media especially hate old school left or right wing politics and love centrism.

He is attacked because of what he represents, not personally, as the figurehead of far left politics then he is the one that is seen as the figurehead for the momentum yobs, the overly PC hard left (nothign wrong with PC in general but this lot want offence made illegal for anyone but themselves.) So it is more the position he heads up in the spectrum that he takes the flak for. In a similar way (although Farage himself gets a lot of hammer) Farage/UKIP pre Batton took most of the flak for the far right space in the spectrum. Now that has virtually gone they have had to move inward attacking the right wing of the Tories, that while definitely right wing are not fascists nor extremists but now treated as such and labelled as such willingly by those on the left.

These are the top10 in Vuelio's political influencer list. People might try and point out that some of these are newspapers however I would suggest the reason they are on there is because of the volume of content the TV shows from them. Most people only know what the Mail is saying because there is such a fuss made of it and the TV making us aware of it. Even Guido (Paul Staines) gets his stuff commented on the BBC. George Osborne's tweets and Headlines are constantly shown on TV news. Tom Newton Dunn is constantly on TV as are his headlines. Geordie Grieg (and his predecessor Dacre) are constantly getting their headlines on TV. Everyone in that top 10 gets a significant amount of airtime beemed into every home all day long. The top 3 are BBC, The 4th is ITV.

The whole of the top 50 is littered by people that might indicate that new media or print media or radio are mixing it up but when you look into it all of those other media influencers are actually go to commentariat or favourite content for screen media. For example Owen Jones is just outside the top 10. He is busy on twitter, he has lots of followers, He writes for the Guardian but he is constantly on TV which is where he gets his mass audience. John Humphreys might head up the Today program but who listens to it? However the Today program is very often in the screen media news segments and thus a large audience suddenly knows what happens there. Polly Toynbee - always on the TV. Iain Dale - always on the TV. Fraser Nelson - always on the TV. Everybody in the top 50 is either on the TV, guests on the TV or has their content constantly used by the TV. It has a huge reach. Newspapers on their own no longer do directly. If TV and social media stopped showing us what nasty thing is in the daily mail then not many would even know these days.

1. Laura Kuenssberg
2. Andrew Marr
3. Andrew Neil
4. Robert Peston
5. George Osborne
6. Tom Newton-Dunn
7. Faisal Islam
8. Paul Staines
9. Geordie Greig
10. Boris Johnson

 

[Onionman]

Corbyn has a majority of Labour members behind him, even though many MP’s don’t like him.

Not over Brexit. 80% of members support a second referendum. Eventually that will begin to erode support for him as he continues to keep one off the table. Not saying it'll happen but it's yet another factor in the cluster**** that is Brexit.

Vin

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Not over Brexit. 80% of members support a second referendum. Eventually that will begin to erode support for him as he continues to keep one off the table. Not saying it'll happen but it's yet another factor in the cluster**** that is Brexit.

Vin

He said today that might be one way to go. As I said above, he is following his own party policy which wanted first a No Confidence vote and only then a second referendum.

 

[Brinkworth Saint]

But this is the problem. The majority of people actually wanted to leave, hence the result of the vote yet ever since the vote it has been presented as the majority of people not wanting the vote and those MPs that want the vote fulfilled are presented as rebels when it is those that are trying to go against their own manifestos that are actually rebels.

Corbyn wants to leave. He is supporting his party's manifesto from the last election. The ERG want to leave. They are supporting their party's manifesto from the last election. They are not the ones that are rebels.

We can argue about some of the ERG wanting WTO (Most don't) but the reality is that your statement above contradicts itself because those who would be seen as "crazy right and left wing extremists" ARE the ones that want to do what they majority of people want.......at least on the issue of Brexit anyway.

It is the infighting within the house from all sides trying to present everything they say as meaning something it doesn't that has caused this. Yes Theresa May's closed shop has caused even more problems but it is the whole house that has been ignoring reality and trying to spin their own narratives that has put us into a gridlock position.

It's no good continually prefixing a statement with "We respect the referendum but......." and then moving into a spun version of how to avoid Brexit even if it is a BRINO version. Similarly it is no good some of the ERG saying they "want a deal but" when they wanted a WTO from the start. The reality is however that most in there have never respected the result, have never had any intention of working positively to deliver any kind of actual Brexit and have merely been spinning while they work out how to ignore the referendum result. They are all to blame.

Even now we have a large section saying they want to extend article 50 so that we can work out a way forward. They aren't bothered about having more time to work out how to deliver Brexit. They might say that but the reality is they want more time to work towards ignoring the result. I'm pretty sure article 50 will be extended. I;ve said it enough times but nothing will change. No-one in there is the slightest bit interested in actually delivering Brexit with a deal that satisfies.

The media (and politicians repeating on masse) have spent the last few months pushing the line that people are "tired of Brexit and just want it to be over." They are tired of Brexit but the way it is spun is that people have had enough and are saying "we give up, lets stay." They aren't tired of Brexit itself, just the constant manouevering by all involved. The zero progress by people that keep blaming each other. What we are tired of is being ignored and the "system" pretending it is trying to achieve something when they aren't.

The media and political classes then spent the last month (especially around the no confidence vote in May) telling us what the public think, that they will blame the ERG for this mess and not May. Well the polling that came out last night clearly showed that 49% do indeed blame May and the government with backbenchers on both sides being blamed in the teen percents. Most people could have predicted that yet all of those on propaganda missions across TV kept on telling the viewers that people didn't blame May at all and were disgusted with the ERG. They even searched and searched for people on the streets that would support this view.

The blame should lie with the whole house and their machinations of how not to deliver what people voted for. Yes the government should shoulder most of it because it is they that are in control and thus the inactivity is all on their shoulders however the house itself has spent 2 years trying its best to make sure that nothing is possible.

Most of the public support (which isn't a majority but is now significant) wanted a real deal not the usual EU stitchup presented as a deal and far from being WTO supporters their view is "just get out, this has gone on too long. There's no point taking any longer because nothing will change. Just get out and then get on with life." Far from being supportive from the start about WTO they are just tired of the bubble's spin and fakery and want to just get it over with and move on.

I can't see us avoiding a referendum now. I said months ago the EU would only grant an extension if we offered something and I suggested it would be a 2nd referendum. We all know how the EU loves a 2nd referendum and today that is confirmed by the leaders of the EU countries, that "the UK" must be showing there is a path forward for them to agree to an extension. This was always on the cards from the day the result went "the wrong way."

Parliament stalls and stalls, The EU give the worst deal possible, the politicians make sure that no progress can ever be made while they and the dominant screen media pump anti-Brexit propaganda into everybody's minds until they are repeating that propaganda in their sleep.

I think WTO would be a really bad option. I wanted a decent deal but WTO vs remaining in that globalist scam? My X would go next to WTO!!! And that is pretty much the sentiment of a lot of the leave vote that wanted a deal. Never wanted a WTO exit but would rather that then remain part of the EU project.

Its a pity that the leave camp downed tools thinking that winning a vote was the end of it because they have left the continuity remain side to dominate the airwaves and the screentime. How naive it is that people thought in a modern democratic country that winning a vote was what counted. They should have known that winning a vote means nothing. It is forcing that vote to be honoured that is the battle.

The only difference between modern democracy and 3rd world democracy is that there they rig the result to be what they want. In Western democracies they don;t rig the vote. They just ignore it afterwards.

Again, we’ll put. Said so in a different way earlier.

 

[Archers Road]

Corbyn has a majority of Labour members behind him, even though many MP’s don’t like him.

Regarding his stance on Brexit though, he is somewhat disconnected from the grass roots of the Labour Party. Whilst there may have been a high % of leave voters in some Labour heartlands, the party membership is generally opposed to Brexit, and by quite high matgins.

 

[Onionman]

He said today that might be one way to go. As I said above, he is following his own party policy which wanted first a No Confidence vote and only then a second referendum.

He also said today to Labour MPs that this is the first of a series of No Confidence motions (apologies, read it on Twitter earlier and can't find the link). I suspect he's desperately trying to kick the issue down the road by keeping to the the letter of the party policy and thus avoiding having to support a referendum while still saying he might.

Vin

 

[Onionman]

Regarding his stance on Brexit though, he is somewhat disconnected from the grass roots of the Labour Party. Whilst there may have been a high % of leave voters in some Labour heartlands, the party membership is generally opposed to Brexit, and by quite high matgins.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...believe-corbyn-should-back-second-brexit-vote

Vin

 

[Osvaldorama]

What are people’s predictions for this evening’s no confidence vote?

 

[VocalMinority]

But this is the problem. The majority of people actually wanted to leave, hence the result of the vote yet ever since the vote it has been presented as the majority of people not wanting the vote and those MPs that want the vote fulfilled are presented as rebels when it is those that are trying to go against their own manifestos that are actually rebels.

Corbyn wants to leave. He is supporting his party's manifesto from the last election. The ERG want to leave. They are supporting their party's manifesto from the last election. They are not the ones that are rebels.

We can argue about some of the ERG wanting WTO (Most don't) but the reality is that your statement above contradicts itself because those who would be seen as "crazy right and left wing extremists" ARE the ones that want to do what they majority of people want.......at least on the issue of Brexit anyway.

It is the infighting within the house from all sides trying to present everything they say as meaning something it doesn't that has caused this. Yes Theresa May's closed shop has caused even more problems but it is the whole house that has been ignoring reality and trying to spin their own narratives that has put us into a gridlock position.

It's no good continually prefixing a statement with "We respect the referendum but......." and then moving into a spun version of how to avoid Brexit even if it is a BRINO version. Similarly it is no good some of the ERG saying they "want a deal but" when they wanted a WTO from the start. The reality is however that most in there have never respected the result, have never had any intention of working positively to deliver any kind of actual Brexit and have merely been spinning while they work out how to ignore the referendum result. They are all to blame.

Even now we have a large section saying they want to extend article 50 so that we can work out a way forward. They aren't bothered about having more time to work out how to deliver Brexit. They might say that but the reality is they want more time to work towards ignoring the result. I'm pretty sure article 50 will be extended. I;ve said it enough times but nothing will change. No-one in there is the slightest bit interested in actually delivering Brexit with a deal that satisfies.

The media (and politicians repeating on masse) have spent the last few months pushing the line that people are "tired of Brexit and just want it to be over." They are tired of Brexit but the way it is spun is that people have had enough and are saying "we give up, lets stay." They aren't tired of Brexit itself, just the constant manouevering by all involved. The zero progress by people that keep blaming each other. What we are tired of is being ignored and the "system" pretending it is trying to achieve something when they aren't.

The media and political classes then spent the last month (especially around the no confidence vote in May) telling us what the public think, that they will blame the ERG for this mess and not May. Well the polling that came out last night clearly showed that 49% do indeed blame May and the government with backbenchers on both sides being blamed in the teen percents. Most people could have predicted that yet all of those on propaganda missions across TV kept on telling the viewers that people didn't blame May at all and were disgusted with the ERG. They even searched and searched for people on the streets that would support this view.

The blame should lie with the whole house and their machinations of how not to deliver what people voted for. Yes the government should shoulder most of it because it is they that are in control and thus the inactivity is all on their shoulders however the house itself has spent 2 years trying its best to make sure that nothing is possible.

Most of the public support (which isn't a majority but is now significant) wanted a real deal not the usual EU stitchup presented as a deal and far from being WTO supporters their view is "just get out, this has gone on too long. There's no point taking any longer because nothing will change. Just get out and then get on with life." Far from being supportive from the start about WTO they are just tired of the bubble's spin and fakery and want to just get it over with and move on.

I can't see us avoiding a referendum now. I said months ago the EU would only grant an extension if we offered something and I suggested it would be a 2nd referendum. We all know how the EU loves a 2nd referendum and today that is confirmed by the leaders of the EU countries, that "the UK" must be showing there is a path forward for them to agree to an extension. This was always on the cards from the day the result went "the wrong way."

Parliament stalls and stalls, The EU give the worst deal possible, the politicians make sure that no progress can ever be made while they and the dominant screen media pump anti-Brexit propaganda into everybody's minds until they are repeating that propaganda in their sleep.

I think WTO would be a really bad option. I wanted a decent deal but WTO vs remaining in that globalist scam? My X would go next to WTO!!! And that is pretty much the sentiment of a lot of the leave vote that wanted a deal. Never wanted a WTO exit but would rather that then remain part of the EU project.

Its a pity that the leave camp downed tools thinking that winning a vote was the end of it because they have left the continuity remain side to dominate the airwaves and the screentime. How naive it is that people thought in a modern democratic country that winning a vote was what counted. They should have known that winning a vote means nothing. It is forcing that vote to be honoured that is the battle.

The only difference between modern democracy and 3rd world democracy is that there they rig the result to be what they want. In Western democracies they don;t rig the vote. They just ignore it afterwards.

We didn't vote on any of this though.


Also the majority of people didn't vote for Brexit and you said yourself you can't extrapolate the vote. You're being hypocritical by saying that the majority of people want it.

 

[AshbySaint]

Corbyn doesn’t want to remain. He wants out ..... which is why the country won’t vote him in. We need a properly social caring government who would actually do what the majority of people want and not listen to those crazy right and left wing extremists who seem to have got hold of parliament now ......

You are right about Corbyn but he might be a remainer if he thinks it will get him power

 

[ImpSaint]

What are people’s predictions for this evening’s no confidence vote?

Government win circa 325 votes in favour.

 

[AshbySaint]

I think I've said previously........Brexit should never have been a single party negotiation..............There is no doubt the EU were not going to make it easy for us to leave. As I've said before there are a few countries that are not exactly happy about the way the EU is going. When the referendum was held the result was cross party.........I was surprised firstly that we had a general election and then a one party negotiating team!! Although having said that the MPs themselves don't seem to know what they want !!!.......I wouldn't want to be an MP that's for sure!!

You wouldn’t be able too! You talk sense

 

[Osvaldorama]

Government win circa 325 votes in favour.

Yep, agreed I think the government will win.

Which says a lot about Labour’s current credibility. I think Corbyn should resign if they can’t even topple the Tories at this low ebb.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Government win circa 325 votes in favour.

I agree. No question of Labour winning.

 

[ImpSaint]

We didn't vote on any of this though.


Also the majority of people didn't vote for Brexit and you said yourself you can't extrapolate the vote. You're being hypocritical by saying that the majority of people want it.

This argument has been developed since the vote, not before. Another repeated mantra to convince us it is true.

The slip said leave or remain. leave got more votes so we leave. The government leaflet (independent of campaigning we have been told so many times) said that leaving would mean leaving the single market and customs union.

As for the "majority" not voting for Brexit. Yes they did either themselves or by not bothering. This has been a tactic since 24th June 2016 to try and represent those that didn't turn out as being remainers.

Maybe every GE from now on we can have mandatory voting if you want to pull that argument. I'm not being hypocritical at all. I answered a post a while back (month or 2) on here that tried to suggest the majority didn;t want Brexit in the same way I have here. If they were that bothered they should have voted. They didn;t. That is how democracy works, those that don't vote have to be assumed to be happy to go along with the result.

 

[ImpSaint]

Yep, agreed I think the government will win.

Which says a lot about Labour’s current credibility. I think Corbyn should resign if they can’t even topple the Tories at this low ebb.

The TV pointed out very early last night that he should have waited until May presented her plans to parliament of the next step. Now he loses this vote and she can present whatever she wants to. If Labour had waited she might have presented something that the DUP and some Tories might vote against the government.

 

[VocalMinority]

This argument has been developed since the vote, not before. Another repeated mantra to convince us it is true.

The slip said leave or remain. leave got more votes so we leave. The government leaflet (independent of campaigning we have been told so many times) said that leaving would mean leaving the single market and customs union.

As for the "majority" not voting for Brexit. Yes they did either themselves or by not bothering. This has been a tactic since 24th June 2016 to try and represent those that didn't turn out as being remainers.

Maybe every GE from now on we can have mandatory voting if you want to pull that argument. I'm not being hypocritical at all. I answered a post a while back (month or 2) on here that tried to suggest the majority didn;t want Brexit in the same way I have here. If they were that bothered they should have voted. They didn;t. That is how democracy works, those that don't vote have to be assumed to be happy to go along with the result.

The exact opposite of what you said before.

You even had a moral crusade against this line of thinking.

 

[ImpSaint]

The exact opposite of what you said before.

You even had a moral crusade against this line of thinking.

If I did then I must've been drunk because I have never followed that line of thinking. My line has always been those that vote are what counts and those that don't have to go along with the result.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

This argument has been developed since the vote, not before. Another repeated mantra to convince us it is true.

The slip said leave or remain. leave got more votes so we leave. The government leaflet (independent of campaigning we have been told so many times) said that leaving would mean leaving the single market and customs union.

As for the "majority" not voting for Brexit. Yes they did either themselves or by not bothering. This has been a tactic since 24th June 2016 to try and represent those that didn't turn out as being remainers.

Maybe every GE from now on we can have mandatory voting if you want to pull that argument. I'm not being hypocritical at all. I answered a post a while back (month or 2) on here that tried to suggest the majority didn;t want Brexit in the same way I have here. If they were that bothered they should have voted. They didn;t. That is how democracy works, those that don't vote have to be assumed to be happy to go along with the result.

I agree entirely. The only people to blame for the result of the referendum are those in charge of the Remain campaign, who didn’t do anything like enough to point out the dangers of leaving.

 

[VocalMinority]

If I did then I must've been drunk because I have never followed that line of thinking. My line has always been those that vote are what counts and those that don't have to go along with the result.

You said that nobody could say what people who didn't vote wanted based on who voted and wrote many paragraphs on the subject.