Off Topic Politics Thread

[Jose Fonte baby]

Hey guys,
Haven't posted much recently, but I need your help! At University, we need to do a research project and we're doing a survey. It's on social mobility so would fit into this thread well! Filling in this quick survey would be very helpful. Thanks

http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2705284/Social-Mobility-in-the-UK

 

[ChilcoSaint]

This is brilliant, a response to Teresa May's plan to remove Britain from the European Convention on Human Rights:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/...-echr-ever-done-for-us-video?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

[TheSecondStain]

This is brilliant, a response to Teresa May's plan to remove Britain from the European Convention on Human Rights:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/...-echr-ever-done-for-us-video?CMP=share_btn_fb

Brilliant!

I was only saying to a Rambler friend yesterday that one of the reasons for staying in was the European convention for human rights. And he said the British were big on human rights. Well, we were both right then. The British and the Europeans are indeed big on human rights. I'm not sure the Conservatives are though. Isn't their motto - let the individual go to the devil in his/her own way? Which is masked as a cry for freedom.

 

[Onionman]

Yep, every evilbastardTory I've ever met is against human rights.

Vin

 

[Archers Road]

Yep, every evilbastardTory I've ever met is against human rights.

Vin

Where are these liberal, compassionate Tories you keep alluding to? Because I can only see David Cameron, and the wolves of his own party are currently snapping at his heals.

 

[Onionman]

Where are these liberal, compassionate Tories you keep alluding to? Because I can only see David Cameron, and the wolves of his own party are currently snapping at his heals.

Serious question: Do you really think that there is one liberal compassionate Tory in Great Britain, David Cameron? If I take your comment at face value that is what you're saying. My argument is not about the numbers or the names of anyone; it's about the consistent attitude on here that all Tories are evil, they all hate everyone but their own, they are all determined to sell the NHS (insert barking mad generalisation here as long as it contains the phrase all Tories and something as extreme as you can make up).

And yet, these one-dimensional politicians who have no compassion at all managed to fool the Great British Public to vote for them. (And the narrative there when discussed in this thread is that the public were indeed fooled; what a bunch of idiots).

There are Marxists in the Labour party. Do you see posts saying all Labour politicians are evil Marxist bastards or that they HATE profit or capitalism or individual enterprise or self-improvement? Nope. Odd.

This polarised attitude that all Tories are mendacious and self-aggrandising self-enriching and in some way evil pollutes this thread on every single page. Frankly, I feel it's pretty puerile and I plan to keep pointing it out when I have time between stamping on the faces of my profit centres (sorry, I mean employees).

In my experience real life's not black and white but here in the politics thread expressing that view about evilbastardTories is deeply unfashionable.

Vin

 

[fatletiss]

I read posts in here from people I respect and wonder if it's the same person. Politics clouds views and embitters some people.

All sides.

Personally, I have hardly in my lifetime heard a politician that I whole heartedly agree with and support; probably not even 60%. I can not affiliate myself to a party. I find variances between local and national party views and this makes decisions difficult. I see career, academic politicians, rather than rounded and grounded people I can trust or relate to.

The thing I don't like in here is the staunch political view that is stuck fast in one party view and doesn't budge. That comes across in this thread regularly. This is 2016, not 1950, 60, 70 or even 80.... Times have changed.

I don't like politics (I know so don't read in here - but I'm a social person and like to hear from people I "socialise" with)

 

[The Ides of March]

You have politicians like Ken Clarke and Peter Mandelson, who although are in different parties, in reality share a lot of core values, beliefs and policies about the direction in which the country should go. What has definitely happened in the past 35 years is that the centre line has moved to the right.

 

[Onionman]

I've completely changed one of my core political views over the past couple of months. Much to my surprise I find myself wishing for something other than the first past the post electoral voting system. In that world the result might be a centrist party coalition of middle ground parties. All the right-wing nutters and foaming marxists could shout their mouths off in the wings while the moderates who can see two sides of an argument get on with running things.

Even six months ago I would have argued against that quite aggressively. It's funny what time can do.

Vin

 

[TheSecondStain]

I've completely changed one of my core political views over the past couple of months. Much to my surprise I find myself wishing for something other than the first past the post electoral voting system. In that world the result might be a centrist party coalition of middle ground parties. All the right-wing nutters and foaming marxists could shout their mouths off in the wings while the moderates who can see two sides of an argument get on with running things.

Even six months ago I would have argued against that quite aggressively. It's funny what time can do.

Vin

One of the democratic crimes of the last political decade has been how the AV referendum was largely laughed into touch, when it could have been a catalyst for proper representation. In a country striving for greater democracy, you'd think the first past the vote system would be ditched as soon as possible. But no. Party over people.

 

[Archers Road]

Serious question: Do you really think that there is one liberal compassionate Tory in Great Britain, David Cameron? If I take your comment at face value that is what you're saying. My argument is not about the numbers or the names of anyone; it's about the consistent attitude on here that all Tories are evil, they all hate everyone but their own, they are all determined to sell the NHS (insert barking mad generalisation here as long as it contains the phrase all Tories and something as extreme as you can make up).

And yet, these one-dimensional politicians who have no compassion at all managed to fool the Great British Public to vote for them. (And the narrative there when discussed in this thread is that the public were indeed fooled; what a bunch of idiots).

There are Marxists in the Labour party. Do you see posts saying all Labour politicians are evil Marxist bastards or that they HATE profit or capitalism or individual enterprise or self-improvement? Nope. Odd.

This polarised attitude that all Tories are mendacious and self-aggrandising self-enriching and in some way evil pollutes this thread on every single page. Frankly, I feel it's pretty puerile and I plan to keep pointing it out when I have time between stamping on the faces of my profit centres (sorry, I mean employees).

In my experience real life's not black and white but here in the politics thread expressing that view about evilbastardTories is deeply unfashionable.

Vin

The conservatives themselves are aware that they are percieved by huge swathes of the public as "the nasty party". Why do you think that is?

One of the democratic crimes of the last political decade has been how the AV referendum was largely laughed into touch, when it could have been a catalyst for proper representation. In a country striving for greater democracy, you'd think the first past the vote system would be ditched as soon as possible. But no. Party over people.

Nick Clegg played his hand very, very badly in 2010. The Lib Dems held the balance of power for the first time in a generation, presenting them with a once in a lifetime opportunity to secure a referendum on PR, but he blew it, ending up with a vote between the dogs breakfast of AV vs the status quo. And in the process he condemned his own party to electoral oblivion. An opportunity tragically wasted.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Nick Clegg played his hand very, very badly in 2010. The Lib Dems held the balance of power for the first time in a generation, presenting them with a once in a lifetime opportunity to secure a referendum on PR, but he blew it, ending up with a vote between the dogs breakfast of AV vs the status quo. And in the process he condemned his own party to electoral oblivion. An opportunity tragically wasted.

Indeed, he was easily outmanoeuvred, and won't be remembered well.

 

[Onionman]

The conservatives themselves are aware that they are percieved by huge swathes of the public as "the nasty party". Why do you think that is?

"Huge swathes"? That's a subjective judgement.

However, I can be objectively certain that a different "huge swathe" voted for them.

Vin

PS Before you tell me that a minority voted for them, remember that an even smaller minority voted for Labour.

 

[Archers Road]

"Huge swathes"? That's a subjective judgement.

However, I can be objectively certain that a different "huge swathe" voted for them.

Vin

PS Before you tell me that a minority voted for them, remember that an even smaller minority voted for Labour.

I was hoping you might have a go at actually answering my question. So I'll rephrase it; the term "the nasty party" was coined by conservative electoral strategists only too well aware of how badly tarnished the party's image had become. They went to great pains to "detoxify the brand" (again their phrase, not mine). Why do you think they felt the need to address this problem? Because even if you don't think there ever was a problem, senior figures in the conservative party certainly thought there was.

 

[Onionman]

I was hoping you might have a go at actually answering my question. So I'll rephrase it; the term "the nasty party" was coined by conservative electoral strategists only too well aware of how badly tarnished the party's image had become. They went to great pains to "detoxify the brand" (again their phrase, not mine). Why do you think they felt the need to address this problem? Because even if you don't think there ever was a problem, senior figures in the conservative party certainly thought there was.

Perhaps it's because people who oppose the Tories use extreme language where every Tory is an evilbastardTory. I don't know and, to a large extent, I don't care.

You're entirely missing my point anyway. There is a big difference between: "I don't think all Tories are evilbastardTories" and "I love everything done by the Tories." I say the former, not the latter. I'm generally to the right of centre in politics and, to date, the only party available to represent my views is the Conservative party. I don't think they are perfect. However, the opposite view of "I don't think they are perfect" is not "They are all evil bastards". Yet, on here, in this forum, it certainly often appears to be the default position.

So, Conservatives saying that there are problems with the European Convention on Human Rights translates effortlessly into "Tories aren't big on human rights". A second's thought shows this for the fallacy it must be. There are dozens of examples on this thread but I can't be bothered to look any more.

So, I'll keep on pointing out extreme anti-Tory views (and in case they ever happen, I'll happily do the same for extreme anti-Labour views, though I'm yet to see one). Why? Because in my opinion they are corrosive to reasoned debate.

Vin

 

[Whiteley Saint]

It's all very subjective. What some consider nasty others consider common sense, what some consider being fair others will consider weak. We all look at things differently and have a wide range of opinions. Luckily we haven't all been brainwashed into thinking the same like in a few countries. This is why the opposition should always be strong to keep the Government of the day in line and give a different perspective.

I wish it was possible for everyone (the country I mean) to take each policy in isolation and not just poo poo it because it's not been made by the party they favour. This is what bugs me about politics. If Labour say something then the Tories will disagree and if the Tories say something then Labour will disagree. Quite often the people disagreeing don't have anything of substance to say but they just feel they have to disagree. I would rather talk about the issue than just slag off one party or the other. That's when I don't listen anymore. It's the same on this thread as soon as the name calling starts you lose me.

 

[BobbyD]

It's all very subjective. What some consider nasty others consider common sense, what some consider being fair others will consider weak. We all look at things differently and have a wide range of opinions. Luckily we haven't all been brainwashed into thinking the same like in a few countries. This is why the opposition should always be strong to keep the Government of the day in line and give a different perspective.

I wish it was possible for everyone (the country I mean) to take each policy in isolation and not just poo poo it because it's not been made by the party they favour. This is what bugs me about politics. If Labour say something then the Tories will disagree and if the Tories say something then Labour will disagree. Quite often the people disagreeing don't have anything of substance to say but they just feel they have to disagree. I would rather talk about the issue than just slag off one party or the other. That's when I don't listen anymore. It's the same on this thread as soon as the name calling starts you lose me.

Well said.

With respect to human rights, its the same as free speech. I'm sure we all respect human rights and we all respect free speech but at what point do we say i don't agree fully with free speech and human rights. Now i believe we all deserve to be able to speak our mind and to live out life as we want but there also common sense in all of this:

- should we allow free speech of the far right and generally incitement of hatred/radicalisation. It pains me when you have things like hardcore islamists who go and shout abuse at events that our soldiers have been participating in.
- should we let foreign criminals commit heinous crimes here and not be able to deport them just because this would be against their human rights so that we as a nation have to pay for their upkeep
- should we allow trolls on the internet to write what they want upsetting peoples who family have deceased or to start up rumours to libel people even though this should be a free speech right?
- should we ban particular adverts or tv shows because 1 person has been emotionally damaged because someone used a profanity?

and so forth and so forth. Not everything is black and white.

 

[Archers Road]

Perhaps it's because people who oppose the Tories use extreme language where every Tory is an evilbastardTory. I don't know and, to a large extent, I don't care.

You're entirely missing my point anyway. There is a big difference between: "I don't think all Tories are evilbastardTories" and "I love everything done by the Tories." I say the former, not the latter. I'm generally to the right of centre in politics and, to date, the only party available to represent my views is the Conservative party. I don't think they are perfect. However, the opposite view of "I don't think they are perfect" is not "They are all evil bastards". Yet, on here, in this forum, it certainly often appears to be the default position.

So, Conservatives saying that there are problems with the European Convention on Human Rights translates effortlessly into "Tories aren't big on human rights". A second's thought shows this for the fallacy it must be. There are dozens of examples on this thread but I can't be bothered to look any more.

So, I'll keep on pointing out extreme anti-Tory views (and in case they ever happen, I'll happily do the same for extreme anti-Labour views, though I'm yet to see one). Why? Because in my opinion they are corrosive to reasoned debate.

Vin

No, I think I get your point; you get offended when people are rude about the Tories. Duly noted.

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[davecg69]

Serious question: Do you really think that there is one liberal compassionate Tory in Great Britain, David Cameron? If I take your comment at face value that is what you're saying. My argument is not about the numbers or the names of anyone; it's about the consistent attitude on here that all Tories are evil, they all hate everyone but their own, they are all determined to sell the NHS (insert barking mad generalisation here as long as it contains the phrase all Tories and something as extreme as you can make up).

And yet, these one-dimensional politicians who have no compassion at all managed to fool the Great British Public to vote for them. (And the narrative there when discussed in this thread is that the public were indeed fooled; what a bunch of idiots).

There are Marxists in the Labour party. Do you see posts saying all Labour politicians are evil Marxist bastards or that they HATE profit or capitalism or individual enterprise or self-improvement? Nope. Odd.

This polarised attitude that all Tories are mendacious and self-aggrandising self-enriching and in some way evil pollutes this thread on every single page. Frankly, I feel it's pretty puerile and I plan to keep pointing it out when I have time between stamping on the faces of my profit centres (sorry, I mean employees).

In my experience real life's not black and white but here in the politics thread expressing that view about evilbastardTories is deeply unfashionable.

Vin

Thanks, Vin. I'm not sure quite which side of the political fence I am, but my father brought me up to consider all angles, so I agree and disagree with policies from all sides of the spectrum and, I suspect, most people are like that. If "everyone" says the Tories are ALL self-enriching etc, then it is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion, to say all left wing politicians are loony Marxists intent on bringing down the capitalists who have "destroyed" this country ......
It is pretty obvious that communism and Marxism doesn't work and will never work, but, at the same time, we need some level of protection for the ordinary working man in the street.
I don't go along with the "bring down the government by striking and aggressive demonstration" - like it or not, we live in a democracy and this government was elected in a fair manner. We are lucky to live in a country where one is allowed to vote for whomsoever one wishes and can even demonstrate peaceably against the government. People should accept what it is and, if they don't like it, perhaps work in a position to make a difference.

 

[Piebacca]

The blubbering about leaving the ECHR always makes me laugh.