Off Topic Politics Thread

[San Tejón]

I do not think many of the politicians in Westminster are worthy of any respect, let alone Sturgeon.

To say that people here are clamouring for Corbyn’s politics is quite simply wrong. He was absolutely destroyed at the ballot box.

Unfortunately many of the problems Brexit was supposed to solve were real and are getting worse.

I feel sorry for the state of this failing country. But it is just that - a failing country…and none of the politicians are doing even the slightest thing to solve any of them.

They are too busy waving rainbow flags and virtue signalling about the World Cup and climate change from their private jets.

In 2017 people absolutely were going for Corbyn’s policies as shown by how close he came to winning. The Tories had 42.4% of the vote (13,636,684) to Labour’s 40% (12,877,918).
The reason Labour did so badly at the last election is because they didn’t have a policy on Brexit, and not because of his manifesto.
Most of the support Corbyn lost went to Remain supporting parties with many voters in the so called Red Wall voting Tory because they wanted to Leave. The Tory vote in 2019 increased by just 329,767, compared to 2017, yet it netted them an extra 47 seats, which shows just how ridiculous our FPTP voting system is.
My opinion is that had Labour gone balls out for the softest of Brexits, that would have included staying in the Single Market and Customs Union AND with Corbyn’s manifesto then yes he would still have lost the Red Wall, but he would have kept those who deserted to other EU supporting parties and possibly gained enough to have closed what was a very small gap in 2017.
Even now, IMO, most people would welcome and support Corbyn’s policies, especially when compared to the heinous policies being enforced by the current government.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

In 2017 people absolutely were going for Corbyn’s policies as shown by how close he came to winning. The Tories had 42.4% of the vote (13,636,684) to Labour’s 40% (12,877,918).
The reason Labour did so badly at the last election is because they didn’t have a policy on Brexit, and not because of his manifesto.
Most of the support Corbyn lost went to Remain supporting parties with many voters in the so called Red Wall voting Tory because they wanted to Leave. The Tory vote in 2019 increased by just 329,767, compared to 2017, yet it netted them an extra 47 seats, which shows just how ridiculous our FPTP voting system is.
My opinion is that had Labour gone balls out for the softest of Brexits, that would have included staying in the Single Market and Customs Union AND with Corbyn’s manifesto then yes he would still have lost the Red Wall, but he would have kept those who deserted to other EU supporting parties and possibly gained enough to have closed what was a very small gap in 2017.
Even now, IMO, most people would welcome and support Corbyn’s policies, especially when compared to the heinous policies being enforced by the current government.

Tbh I think Brexit totally snookered Labour and there was no way they survived that election, it was just impossible to overcome the majority of their voters being remain, but the majority of their constituencies being for Brexit.

A ‘soft’ Brexit would have still been ‘not Brexit’ in the eyes of their Red Wall constituencies and wouldn’t have satisfied the remain voters that turned away from them.

Longer term we may be better off that he didn’t win, even if he did a better job of Covid the Conservatives and their media would have been trying to get him tried for genocide, and if he got through that he would likely have been brought down by the war in Ukraine, unless the party mediated out his ‘Stop to the War coalition’ connections.

Even if the country performed better than it has under the Tories, Labour would have copped so much **** that they would have been significantly damaged electorally for a long period of time. Now they are recovering and their longer term prospects are much better.

 

[Archers Road]

Two big issues on the doorstep for Labour at the last election were anti-Semitism in London, and Brexit in Wales and the North of England. So a bit snookered really.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Two big issues on the doorstep for Labour at the last election were anti-Semitism in London, and Brexit in Wales and the North of England. So a bit snookered really.

Do you really believe anti-semitism was an issue for the "man in the street?" Even Jewish Voice for Labour was sceptical of the claims being made again Corbyn in this respect and it had the distinct whiff of being a trumped up story that the more right-leaning members of the PLP were happy to accept. I do not doubt it existed to some degree but racism in the Labour Party was probably insignificant in comparison to the Conservtives and especially UKIP. Lets not forget that some Jewish Labourmembers had also shown support for Israel.

I am intrigued by the comment about Corbyn's links with "Stop the war." I am usually a supporter but I feel Russia does not really care about opposition to or indeed hostility towards what they are doing in Ukraine. Russian mentality seems so different to ours. The public has not got behind STWs curent campaign in the way they did with Iraq and STW have recently had a campaign to fill their coffers. They seem markedly behind the curve and out of touch. However, and this is a big but, I think that a Corbyn -led administration would have contributed to halting the agrandisement of NATO and also reined in the EU;s overtures towards parts of the former USSR including Ukraine. If you like, his foreign policy would have been softer and, if influential, may have appeased Putin to some degree. My question is whether or not this would have had an impact on Russia further down the line. Utlimately, I think NATO has failed by acting too late and, as with the former Yugoslavia, it has not prevented another war in Europe. The argument that NATO has brought peace to Europe since 1945 is a lie. (Yugoslavia, Ireland, Cyprus, etc.) You just wonder if Corbyn's understandable apathy towards NATO would have had an impact further down the line with Putin. I am on the fence with this, largely as I feel Putin is probably apathic towards any Western overtures.

For me, Putin is now in a situation where he cannot win as he had wanted and does not want to seen to have lost this war. There are two scenarios for me. One is the the Russian people get fed up with the campaign and remove him. This is the most likely one. The other option is that he goes nuclear and thinks it is worthwhile destroying everything. Would Corbyn have been able to absorb this? If he was PM now, I just feel that he would probably try to avoid the question. He may have had a viable solution back in 2016 and we could have avoided the situation where Putin felt cornered by NATO and had to retaliate. I feel that NATO vastly under-estimated Putin's intentions yet the problems that NATO created should have been addressed long before Corbyn became Labour leader. NATO should have been disbanded at the same time the Berlin wall came down. We have effectively played in to Putin's hands where former Soviet block countries have joined NATO but luckily the Russian military is proving to be much worse than anyone had anticipated. I feel that the performance of the Russian military will encourage the West to be more bullish and this would leave Corbyn even more out of touch. The weekly MoD publications about russian mitliary performance is lamentable.

My hope would be that Russia learns a lesson and that the whole NATO project is wound down as soon as a new and more liberal regime is in place. Unfortunately, in the current situation NATO has to counter any threat from Russia and, in this respect, i regret to say that Corbyn would probably end up being shunted aside had he been PM and become a Chamberlain like figure. NATO has engineered a situation where they are now relevant.

I would like to think that someone more educated that myself could argue that Corbyn would have handled the invasion of Ukraine better that Boris. Whilst welcoming an argument to that effect, my gut feeling is that he would have been overwhelmed by it.

 

[AberdeenSaint]

The whole passport issue perplexes me. I was sad to see the purple EU passports disappear and anyone who travels abroad will be aware of the benefits. It is a shame that a good proportion of those people who voted for Brexit are unlikely to be the ones who travel to Europe. However, on my two visits to Qatar this year, I found that it took me a while to go through the first time but on my second visit I was waived through. When I visited the first time, the bloke in front of me came from Pakistan and it took an age for him to go through which made me grateful I had a British passport. My impression if that a British passport would be more advantagous in Africa and Asia as opposed to being disadvantage in Europe.

I think that the media has been pretty poor at holding those politicians who campaigned for Brexit to account. The BBC appears anti-Brexit and I think that it's more liberal leanings probably mean that some of the more right-wing individuals will be slightly distrusting. However, the BBC can only report the reality and whilst I would have to say that I find Channel Four's news coverage to be more robust, people must be starting to realise that Brexit has had no advantages whatsoever. The only thing beneficial is that we have not been involved when the EU gets things wrong but you might argue that the presence of the Brits in the EU would have ensured this happened less often! I wish that some journalist would do a root and branch assessment of Brexit and then hold those politicians sponsible to account. By the same token, I think Labour also need to be interrogated on their stance. They know that they will lose voters if they campaign to re-join the EU and Starmer simply argues that he wants to fulfill the wishes of those people who voted Leave. That simply implies to me that he is happy to drive the car over the cliff leaving the SNP and the fringe and irrelevant Liberals as Pro-Eu. Starmer is seriously under-whelming in my opinion but it is also worthwhile reflecting that Corbyn would probably have been elected if he could have found a credible response to Brexit. The fact that he could never do this fatally undermined him at a time when, otherwise, there was a real appetite for his brand of politics in this country. Had he been elected I think he would have created waves across Europe which would have seen a general shift in the EU towards the Left. I was always surprised how highly he was thought of in France. the worse missed opportunity for the UK since Labour rejected Tony Benn as leader.

What I do feel is ironic is that the most effective and coherent leader of any of the political parties in the UK is the one that is looking for her own country to become independent. I really dislike her but think she is an incredible politician being both modern and correct in so many instances. A large part of the problem for the English is that she is usually right in what she says yet it has a double edge to it insofar that it is coated in an Anti-English covering albeit impossible to argue against the case she presents. I cannot help but thinkin just how much better off we would be if she was Prime Minister of the UK . As things stand, I think Scottish independence may be desirable yet I cannot see a Westminster government handling that any better than Brexit. Even if Scotland gets independence, I think Westminster will administer it poorly regardless of who is in power despite the good intentions of the SNP. If the people who dealt with Brexit are involved, they will make it difficult for an independent Scotland

It`s a mistake to think that Sturgeon is Anti-English - she isn`t. She`s Pro-Scottish. She is Anti-Tory, and who can blame her.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

It`s a mistake to think that Sturgeon is Anti-English - she isn`t. She`s Pro-Scottish. She is Anti-Tory, and who can blame her.

Spot on I think. This is my view looking from the outside in too

 

[Archers Road]

I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon is anti-English. But I have no time for nationalism of any persuasion, even supposedly progressive nationalism.

When I visited the HoC public gallery quite recently, a debate about Scottish independence was taking place. Some SNP MPs spoke eloquently, but in the end it was mostly just sentimental bollocks about heather in the Glen; a Scottish version of John Major’s warm beer and cricket on the village green. Very romantic, but appealing to what exactly? An idyll with no real existence beyond the imagination. And the last thing these islands need is another border.

 

[Osvaldorama]

In 2017 people absolutely were going for Corbyn’s policies as shown by how close he came to winning. The Tories had 42.4% of the vote (13,636,684) to Labour’s 40% (12,877,918).
The reason Labour did so badly at the last election is because they didn’t have a policy on Brexit, and not because of his manifesto.
Most of the support Corbyn lost went to Remain supporting parties with many voters in the so called Red Wall voting Tory because they wanted to Leave. The Tory vote in 2019 increased by just 329,767, compared to 2017, yet it netted them an extra 47 seats, which shows just how ridiculous our FPTP voting system is.
My opinion is that had Labour gone balls out for the softest of Brexits, that would have included staying in the Single Market and Customs Union AND with Corbyn’s manifesto then yes he would still have lost the Red Wall, but he would have kept those who deserted to other EU supporting parties and possibly gained enough to have closed what was a very small gap in 2017.
Even now, IMO, most people would welcome and support Corbyn’s policies, especially when compared to the heinous policies being enforced by the current government.

No offence but I honestly think you’re living in a left wing echo chamber.

Corbyn was decisively beaten.

Almost everyone except uni students hated corbyn.

The Labour Party needs to accept that the further left they go, the less votes they will receive.

 

[San Tejón]

No offence but I honestly think you’re living in a left wing echo chamber.

Corbyn was decisively beaten.

Almost everyone except uni students hated corbyn.

The Labour Party needs to accept that the further left they go, the less votes they will receive.

How could anyone be offended by you Os?
I think you are wrong again.
Several polls surrounding Corbyn’s manifesto showed that even traditional Tory voters supported what he wanted to do.
Here’s the vote by age group stat from the 2019 election. There are a lot of mature students in this country, if you think he was only supported by uni students.

You must log in or register to see images

As I said Corbyn was beaten because of his lack of a coherent Brexit plan and the outrageous personal attacks made on him by most of the media, that demonised him.
I am left of centre but not left wing, although the longer this shower of **** government stay in power the further left I could move.


How could anyone be offended by you Os?
I think you are wrong again.
Several polls surrounding Corbyn’s manifesto showed that even traditional Tory voters supported what he wanted to do.
Here’s the vote by age group stat from the 2019 election. There are a lot of mature students in this country, if you think he was only supported by uni students.

You must log in or register to see images

As I said Corbyn was beaten because of his lack of a coherent Brexit plan and the outrageous personal attacks made on him by most of the media, that demonised him.
I am left of centre but not left wing, although the longer this shower of **** government stay in power the further left I could move.

Must be in an echo chamber as I have written it twice.

 

[San Tejón]

There you go guys, it’s your fault that fuel prices are too high. Nothing to do with the government or the fuel companies.
In Spain I am still receiving 20c per litre discount off of the pump price with the loss being absorbed by the government and the fuel companies. It can be done if there is a will to do it.

A TOP Tory has told drivers it is their responsibility to force fuel prices down by shopping around.

Food Minister Mark Spencer advised drivers to find independent retailers selling petrol for less than supermarket prices.

Interviewed on Times Radio, he said: “Use your consumer power to drive those prices down.”

RAC figures show petrol is averaging £1.53 per litre, and diesel £1.76.

It says they should come down 15p and 13p respectively and is calling on supermarkets to “give drivers the Christmas present they deserve”.

Rishi Sunak earlier this week failed to rule out raising fuel duty by 12p a litre in the spring. The tax has not risen since 2010.

Footnote, the fuel discount might be ending in the new year, but even if it does, drivers have received good support here.

 

[San Tejón]

And with UK train prices going up next year, this piece from October shows Spain’s commitment to train users by extending it’s free ticket policy for the whole of 2023.
You can do things like this if you have a state owned railway system.
And this isn’t just about helping people financially, they are hoping that it will encourage more car users to use trains and help reduce the CO2 emissions.

https://www.spainenglish.com/2022/1...nt-extends-free-train-routes-throughout-2023/

 

[San Tejón]

It’s a day that keeps on giving today. Maybe the Tories think that people are too focused on Christmas to notice what they are doing.
An ethics adviser who has no independence and longer chauffeur driven car rides for Ministers.


RISHI Sunak has refused to give his new ethics adviser the power to launch his own investigations into ministers’ behaviour.

The Prime Minister yesterday hired Sir Laurie Magnus, filling a role vacant for six months.

Dave Penman, head of the FDA, representing senior civil servants, said: “How will this give civil servants the confidence to come forward?”

Labour deputy leader Angela Rayner said Mr Sunak had preserved the “rotten ethics regime”.

The PM also eased rules on how far ministers can take chauffeured limos.

Ms Rayner added: “He’s busy changing the rules to sort out car rides home for his own ministers.”

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

How could anyone be offended by you Os?
I think you are wrong again.
Several polls surrounding Corbyn’s manifesto showed that even traditional Tory voters supported what he wanted to do.
Here’s the vote by age group stat from the 2019 election. There are a lot of mature students in this country, if you think he was only supported by uni students.

You must log in or register to see images

As I said Corbyn was beaten because of his lack of a coherent Brexit plan and the outrageous personal attacks made on him by most of the media, that demonised him.
I am left of centre but not left wing, although the longer this shower of **** government stay in power the further left I could move.


How could anyone be offended by you Os?
I think you are wrong again.
Several polls surrounding Corbyn’s manifesto showed that even traditional Tory voters supported what he wanted to do.
Here’s the vote by age group stat from the 2019 election. There are a lot of mature students in this country, if you think he was only supported by uni students.

You must log in or register to see images

As I said Corbyn was beaten because of his lack of a coherent Brexit plan and the outrageous personal attacks made on him by most of the media, that demonised him.
I am left of centre but not left wing, although the longer this shower of **** government stay in power the further left I could move.

Must be in an echo chamber as I have written it twice.

I am right of centre and the prospect of Boris in 2019 and “getting Brexit done” meant that I voted for Corbyn. Just thought I’d put it out there.

Similar to you the longer this incarnation of the Tory party are in the further away from the right I move and the further firstly to the centre I move, then who knows.

 

[AberdeenSaint]

I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon is anti-English. But I have no time for nationalism of any persuasion, even supposedly progressive nationalism.

When I visited the HoC public gallery quite recently, a debate about Scottish independence was taking place. Some SNP MPs spoke eloquently, but in the end it was mostly just sentimental bollocks about heather in the Glen; a Scottish version of John Major’s warm beer and cricket on the village green. Very romantic, but appealing to what exactly? An idyll with no real existence beyond the imagination. And the last thing these islands need is another border.

Imagine you lived in a country where you had a a border with the whole of Europe foisted upon you against your will, by a corrupt government, supported by millions of people who were conned into voting for it. We want our border with the rest of Europe removed. How do we do that?

 

[Osvaldorama]

How could anyone be offended by you Os?
I think you are wrong again.
Several polls surrounding Corbyn’s manifesto showed that even traditional Tory voters supported what he wanted to do.
Here’s the vote by age group stat from the 2019 election. There are a lot of mature students in this country, if you think he was only supported by uni students.

You must log in or register to see images

As I said Corbyn was beaten because of his lack of a coherent Brexit plan and the outrageous personal attacks made on him by most of the media, that demonised him.
I am left of centre but not left wing, although the longer this shower of **** government stay in power the further left I could move.


How could anyone be offended by you Os?
I think you are wrong again.
Several polls surrounding Corbyn’s manifesto showed that even traditional Tory voters supported what he wanted to do.
Here’s the vote by age group stat from the 2019 election. There are a lot of mature students in this country, if you think he was only supported by uni students.

You must log in or register to see images

As I said Corbyn was beaten because of his lack of a coherent Brexit plan and the outrageous personal attacks made on him by most of the media, that demonised him.
I am left of centre but not left wing, although the longer this shower of **** government stay in power the further left I could move.

Must be in an echo chamber as I have written it twice.

Your graphs take into account age but not voter turnout.

You must log in or register to see images

it was an absolute landslide. The country rejected socialist policies - like it always does.

I know for someone young that spends time on the internet it felt like Corbyn was doing well. But your internet echo chamber isn’t reality my friend. Majority of the country hated him and his politics

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I think that St Badger is referring to the 2017 election where Corbyn was unfortunate not to get elected. He was wiped out in 2019 but the previous election was far closer. If Brexit had not been an issue in either election, I believe we would have got in in the first election. Also worth noting that the Labour Party became the largest political party in Europe under his tenure.

 

[Archers Road]

Imagine you lived in a country where you had a a border with the whole of Europe foisted upon you against your will, by a corrupt government, supported by millions of people who were conned into voting for it. We want our border with the rest of Europe removed. How do we do that?

Fair point, I do understand that point of view.

I just hope, selfishly perhaps, that this bitterly disunited kingdom can become reunited, and build a constructive relationship with the rest of Europe. Which, of course, it can never do with a Conservative government in Westminster.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Your graphs take into account age but not voter turnout.

You must log in or register to see images

it was an absolute landslide. The country rejected socialist policies - like it always does.

I know for someone young that spends time on the internet it felt like Corbyn was doing well. But your internet echo chamber isn’t reality my friend. Majority of the country hated him and his politics

I agree with you on this one, Os, but the irony of you saying “your internet echo chamber isn’t reality my friend” is making my teeth itch!

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

Your graphs take into account age but not voter turnout.

You must log in or register to see images

it was an absolute landslide. The country rejected socialist policies - like it always does.

I know for someone young that spends time on the internet it felt like Corbyn was doing well. But your internet echo chamber isn’t reality my friend. Majority of the country hated him and his politics

I agree with you here O.

IMO the further to the left Labour go, the more unelectable they become. For some reason the same isn’t true for the right.

 

[Osvaldorama]

I agree with you on this one, Os, but the irony of you saying “your internet echo chamber isn’t reality my friend” is making my teeth itch!

why?