Off Topic Politics Thread

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My response in a nutshell ...

Calling the working classes racist won’t win their votes

Are the middle classes less racist?
They hold the key to the doors to the top jobs which are dominated by Old White Men

The Labour Party need to be more working class to represent the working class but modern politics isn’t so class based anyway

Modern Socialism isn’t based on Marx and Trotsky

‘Liberalism’ is used to describe so many different things in different contexts now that it’s lost all meaning. I think ‘Progressive’ has taken over the meaning I use it for, but I’m not sure there is a common definition of any political ideas these days
 
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......loading...... said:
Depends on what you think racism is. The working class have more to fear than the middle classes.

My experience works like this. Working class people see more impact from immigration than the middle classes. For example, you live in Portswood. One year your neighbours are English working class folk like yourself. The next year the gradually become students. This annoys you as they are loud and obnoxious. The house prices drop. The area fills with a sudden wave of Polish people. They are noisy, drink a lot and don't seem much different to the students. They also work in labouring like you do. They work hard and they work long hours. They are happy to undercut you as they are young and have no commitments. In the news you hear someone saying there is plenty of work and British people are just lazy. You are told the economy is better off. But you are not the economy. You are working class and suddenly your area and your trade are different. The change has made your life worse.

Population shift of 10% in 5 years in Southampton is largely unnoticed by the middle class in their suburbs which poles cannot afford. They sneer at the racist poor for not noticing how good the poles are as a polish plumber fixes their leaking tap for a quarter what the English guy used to charge. How nice to be not racist.

But actually the working class man who resents immigration, in my experience, is more likely to have a black mate, an Asian mate and a polish mate. More likely to actually mix and accept people. But Denise in Highfield whose friends are all white but signs up to support Palestine is of course less racist...
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Get Out is good film featuring a lovely liberal non-racist family
 
shoot_spiderman said:
My response in a nutshell ...

Calling the working classes racist won’t win their votes

Are the middle classes less racist?
They hold the key to the doors to the top jobs which are dominated by Old White Men

The Labour Party need to be more working class to represent the working class but modern politics isn’t so class based anyway

Modern Socialism isn’t based on Marx and Trotsky

‘Liberalism’ is used to describe so many different things in different contexts now that it’s lost all meaning. I think ‘Progressive’ has taken over the meaning I use it for, but I’m not sure there is a common definition of any political ideas these days
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Those were the things I wanted to say but I got lost in the race thing. People are so ignorant if the working class and their lives it just makes me shake my head.
 
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One more because I missed out the main point. Nobody is less racist IN REALITY than the working class. They live right on top of all the other races. I grew up in St Mary's. I had black, polish and Asian neighbours. As I got richer I moved to richer areas and saw fewer and fewer people who were different. The more I moved the move race seemed like an issue. The richer the area the more righteous the people.

When I lived on top of black, Asian and Eastern European people we all had a laugh and said racist things. When I moved we didn't integrate but we knew racist things were wrong.

This is how we intellectualise the poor into the bad guy role. We establish these nonsensical rules which don't relate to life. Noticing and joking about difference is more honest than noticing and pretending not to notice it.

Stop poor shaming. It is the route to Tory mastery.
 
Archers Road said:
If the working class would stop voting Ukip, and now Tory, I might start liking them a bit more.

Until then they can all **** off imo, and take the posh twats with them.
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Very easy to do this. Listen when they complain and try to actually empathise. Respect that poor people are impacted more by immigration than the wealthy. Don't assume that rapid social change is healthy - even if we can agree gradual social change is normal.

Don't be that guy who hates Brits abroad, yet cannot see any issues with similar groups moving quickly in to the UK.
 
......loading...... said:
Very easy to do this. Listen when they complain and try to actually empathise. Respect that poor people are impacted more by immigration than the wealthy. Don't assume that rapid social change is healthy - even if we can agree gradual social change is normal.

Don't be that guy who hates Brits abroad, yet cannot see any issues with similar groups moving quickly in to the UK.
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You’ve got the wrong guy mate, I live in Haringey. Probably one of the most ethnically diverse boroughs in the country, and I’m fine with it. My neighbours are from all over the world and I get on with pretty much all of them; although it probably does help that I’m a big guy so the drug dealing Somalian youths leave me alone when I’m walking to the bus stop after work. But actually, no they’re cool; they fear each other, and they fear the police. They leave us law abiding citizens alone.

When I moved back to North London from Southampton, in 1982, I was surrounded by Irish and Jamaicans, and dodgy cockney geezers who ran fruit and veg stalls outside the pubs we all drank in - and I loved it. Still do. No time for racism, no excuses.

Rising house prices, gentrification of working class neighbourhoods, Thatcher - I still hate Thatcher - selling off al the council houses; these are the causes of the social problems I see around me every day. That and a low skilled, low wage economy that we have allowed ourselves to become - with not much in the way of trade unions to protect the interests of working people.

Don’t be that guy who blames the Poles - or the blacks, or the Irish or the dogs.
 
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Archers Road said:
You’ve got the wrong guy mate, I live in Haringey. Probably one of the most ethnically diverse boroughs in the country, and I’m fine with it. My neighbours are from all over the world and I get on with pretty much all of them; although it probably does help that I’m a big guy so the drug dealing Somalian youths leave me alone when I’m walking to the bus stop after work. But actually, no they’re cool; they fear each other, and they fear the police. They leave us law abiding citizens alone.

When I moved back to North London from Southampton, in 1982, I was surrounded by Irish and Jamaicans, and dodgy cockney geezers who ran fruit and veg stalls outside the pubs we all drank in - and I loved it. Still do. No time for racism, no excuses.

Rising house prices, gentrification of working class neighbourhoods, Thatcher - I still hate Thatcher - selling off al the council houses; these are the causes of the social problems I see around me every day. That and a low skilled, low wage economy that we have allowed ourselves to become - with not much in the way of trade unions to protect the interests of working people.

Don’t be that guy who blames the Poles - or the blacks, or the Irish or the dogs.
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Wasn't aware I blamed anyone. I have a lot of Polish friends (yes, that old card). Immigration is normal but it impacts lives. Not respecting that is what empowered UKIP. If one of the main parties had shown some respect for the impact rapidly changing communities has then UKIP would have struggled.

To be honest, if we had not made so many areas of England sink holes they would have struggled even more. As you say, Thatcher's decimation of the working class community through sales of council housing was the first stage of all that.
 
......loading...... said:
Wasn't aware I blamed anyone. I have a lot of Polish friends (yes, that old card). Immigration is normal but it impacts lives. Not respecting that is what empowered UKIP. If one of the main parties had shown some respect for the impact rapidly changing communities has then UKIP would have struggled.

To be honest, if we had not made so many areas of England sink holes they would have struggled even more. As you say, Thatcher's decimation of the working class community through sales of council housing was the first stage of all that.
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Can't agree more with the Thatcher council house sell off sentiments. I think reinvestment into more social housing was prohibited. The witch is dead but her legacy lives on. Voter ID with boundary charges will further skew elections in the tories favour.
 
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