Off Topic Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by ChilcoSaint, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. ......loading......

    ......loading...... Well-Known Member

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    I am beginning to think this is just a cop out. People are creating their own stupidity traps. Somebody on social media told me... very quickly becomes their own idea and then when they have to justify it to others it comes out as this nonsense.

    My life is ****. I always vote Labour. My life stays ****. It must be Labour's fault. This seems to be the entire thought process that old guy was capable of.
     
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  2. Shandy_top_89

    Shandy_top_89 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah as others have said, the people in these areas believe Labour are responsible for the impact of austerity.

    The Tory MP who won the by-election referred to people being fed up of Labour and voting for change, so you can see how the argument has been framed and that it’s clearly fed through to the voters.
     
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    Last edited: May 9, 2021
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  3. StJabbo1

    StJabbo1 Well-Known Member

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    Apportion blame by the percentage of time spent in power and then the tories are the ones to be slated. Couldn't find the numbers but this was interesting.
    https://www.dummies.com/education/politics-government/post-1945-british-governments/
     
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  4. ......loading......

    ......loading...... Well-Known Member

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    I have been giving this labour thing some more thought. Above I mentioned that nobody champions the poor white man. On the face of statistics you can see why: black and Asians are more likely to live in poverty. But statistics is a bitch.

    There are 11 million white people in the UK living below the poverty line. Under a million BAME people in the same boat.

    Yes, statistically they are more likely to have a hard life but what does it say to the 11 million systematically abused and disenfranchised working class people suffering in poverty who are told they have white privilege and to suck it up? Labour can become a power again only when they find a way to champion this huge subsection of society or admit they don't care about poor white people and are actually all about middle class liberal ideals that have nothing to do with the labour movement.

    The biggest issue in our society right now is that we have allowed poor people to be sidelined and ridiculed. I am really curious: who does Labour represent?
     
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  5. thereisonlyoneno7

    thereisonlyoneno7 Well-Known Member

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    (Sorry, I know I am misquoting your views, but) The problem is that those 11 million blame the <1m BAME people for this mess and the millions of BAME people above the poverty line and vote Tory.
     
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  6. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    This. The government programs that lift up the poor BAME individuals also tend to lift up poor whites as well. The interests of the two groups should align; that many in the white working class believe that there is a fundamental tension between the two is a big part of the problem.

    They were historically both part of the traditional left/labour coalition, but the right has successfully convinced the white working class that what they really need are tax cuts for the wealthy. Quite a trick, that.
     
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  7. davecg69

    davecg69 Well-Known Member

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    And, judging by some of the interviews I’ve seen, blame the Labour government for their woes .... :emoticon-0121-angry
     
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  8. St. Luigi Scrosoppi

    St. Luigi Scrosoppi Well-Known Member

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    Nice timing for the Covid enquiry by Johnson. Carefully selected chair and panelists and timed to report back after the next general election has take place.
     
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  9. saintrichie123

    saintrichie123 Well-Known Member

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    At last a journalist calling the government out on lying.
     
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  10. saintrichie123

    saintrichie123 Well-Known Member

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  11. ......loading......

    ......loading...... Well-Known Member

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    You are doing that thing you accuse others of again. No working class person has ever voted for tax cuts for the wealthy. They have voted on ideology and issues the same as everyone else. The reason the left keep losing votes - and I am a Labour voter - is the sneering contempt of leftwing intellectuals for the views of the poor.

    The poor vote Brexit. They are stupid and easily led. What ****ing idiots. The poor complain about lockdowns. They are stupid and and easily led. Conspiracy theories. Idiots. Black people are mistreated. White privilege. Hold on I don't have any privilege, what about me? Shut up you ignorant working class racist troll. The poor vote Conservative. They are stupid. They don't represent you. Why are poor people so dumb?

    Yeah, poor white people really have a lot of reasons to vote for this continued sneering intellectual elitism.

    It is a constant on this board.
     
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  12. Schad

    Schad Well-Known Member

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    Even more comical is this notion that I'm a sneering intellectual elite and not, y'know, a poor white person from a poor white region of a poor white province*. I'm more toward middle class at this point, I suppose, though hardly able to enjoy the fruits of that status while I still have rather onerous student loans.

    But let's test this. Let's treat those voters as rational actors, voting for their interests. What precisely are their interests, and how are they supported by their current voting patterns? Because I'm not suggesting that they're intentionally voting for tax benefits for the wealthy: I'm suggesting that cultural wedge issues and, yes, straight-up racism have been used to convince them to vote against their interests, for political actors whose primary aim is the protection of moneyed interests, a pattern seen in a number of countries.


    *The most widely-known cultural product concerning the area where I live? A true-crime book about a family of incestuous hill folk. From the 1980s! The most widely-known cultural product concerning my province? Trailer Park Boys!
     
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  13. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    I always wondered what Trailer Park Boys do in the winter? Do they still live in caravans when everything's under 12 foot of snow?
     
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  14. shoot_spiderman

    shoot_spiderman Power to the People

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    The Tories have changed. They used to tell people what was good for them and rely on their perceived class superiority to win elections

    Now they ask people what they want and then tell them they’ll give it to them to win elections

    Labour relied on the belief that they were themselves working class and would improve the lot of working people to win elections

    Now very few of them are working class and they ask people what they want and then tell them what they should want and lose elections

    I’ve no idea how we’re going to get ourselves out of this mess because the left can’t stop arguing with each other while the Tories are just laughing all the way to the bank
     
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  15. ......loading......

    ......loading...... Well-Known Member

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    Not sure that post disproved anything I said...
     
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  16. ......loading......

    ......loading...... Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely this
     
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  17. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    Pretty much this, yeah. What remains to be seen is whether the Tories under BJ will deliver, or attempt to deliver, on any of their promises to former Labour strongholds. Will the Red Wall voters, who have arguably been abandoned by both the Tories and Labour, see government backed investment in their communities?

    This government has shown it's not afraid to embrace Socialist policies when they are proven to make practical sense. They've just renationalised British Rail ffs. They've spent billions paying people to stay at home through the pandemic. Let's see what happens next.

    Brexit is the shadow that still hangs over us. A combination of Nationalism and Socialism has not ended well in the past. This isn't Weimar Germany though...
     
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  18. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    This pretty much sums it up for me although I think I would go a stage further and suggest that the Conservatives' appeal largely stems from pandering to people's worst instincts. The problem is that the "working classes" are perceived as almost saintly. This is not really the case. I would suggest that racism is more prevalent amongst working people that the middle classes who tend to be more liberal and aware. The appeal of Brexit stemmed from the perceived hostility towards foreigners and the fact that the British (read "English") can mange their affairs far better. You also have the fact that the Conservatives appeal because of their perception of reducing foreign aid. I would go on and on giving examples but think that the fact so many "working class" people are equally likely to be self-employed or even run their own businesses, that the Conservatives automatically come across as safe-guarding their issues. At the same time, this is reflected in issues such as declining trade union membership and a more widespread hostility / negativity directed towards the them.

    I think that the problem with Socialism is that it largely reflects ideas and a view of society which is historic. Writers like Marx and Trotsky reflect a society which is 100-150 years ago and well and truly in the past. To make "Socialism" appealing, I feel that it needs to re-cast itself and get away with old notions about class and concentrate on contemporary society and it's ills. In my opinion I think "liberal" issues such as gender identity or other "niche" matters have been allowed to take priority for too long. It is not really helped by this agenda being promoted by "worthy" media outlets such as the BBC and The Guardian which are effectively echo-chambers for their own ideas. It is clear that these ideas are increasingly divorced from the lives of most ordinary people who are generally more concerned with job security, money, quality of life, NHS, etc, etc.

    The Left is too fragmented to really generate the same level of appeal the Conservatives and a lot of the "niche" groups which have affinity to Labour's more "liberal" views are off-putting to the general voter. In a nutshell. Labour constantly under-estimate and patronise the "working classes" as has been stated previously on this thread. However, by the same token, do we really want to live in a society that reflects the views of the working class where a large element is attracted by the likes of Ukip and what is out and out racism ? I am not convinced that typical working class views are unquestionably acceptable.

    It is also salutary to see parties like the Greens and SNP take away a lot of the traditional support for Labour. I think that this is demonstrative of Labour's failure to get across what it actually stands for and has become worse since the ineffectual Starmer has come to power. It is more of an "umbrella" organisation for minority ideas that a genuine "movement" and just comes across as lacking integrity. no one knows what Labour really stands for. A lot of the recent problems stem from the fact that their politicians failed to rally around Corbyn whose performance in 2016 demonstrated that there is a wide appeal for a Left wing government in this country. The more centrist members of the party who were in favour of remaining in EU undermined him and he was not helps by the BBC who were very quick to stick the knife in to him. I felt that Brexit was a bad idea but wonder had Corbyn been permitted to steer Labour in this direction, we would have had a socialist government in this country for five years by now. Any future success will depend on Labour re-finding it's identity (which will mean a lurch toward the Left) and a way of finding how to re-cast socialist ideals that reflects the 21st century and not the mid 20th century. In my opinion, this also means finding an alternative to liberalism which is wholly responsible for the counter-reaction of more reactionary politicians such as Trump and Johnson. I felt Corbyn was addressing this problem yet was ultimately undone by the combination of the media and some of his fellow politicians when it became apparent that his ideas had a lot of traction.
     
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  19. davecg69

    davecg69 Well-Known Member

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    Good post, Ian, though, personally, I think the idea of a “lurch to the left” by Labour is likely to be the death knell of the party.
    What this country is crying out for is a middle (slightly left leaning) of the road party who will tax people fairly (if you earn vast amounts you pay more - not necessarily a higher percentage but just reasonable to pay your way), close tax loopholes and insist on companies paying a fair corporation tax. Bring in truly democratic ways of voting (PR) and provision of social housing at a decent rate, increase minimum wage, clamp down on cronyism and back scratching in Parliament, and provide everyone with a decent standard of living. Review the use of renewable energy and green issues, plus nit be afraid to work with other parties to forward a greener agenda.
    Obviously, protection of the NHS is paramount as (to me) is the need to start a worthwhile discussion with the EU regarding a potential rejoining (something, it would appear, that Labour have given up upon).
    Just a pipe dream I’m afraid. I feel I’ll be dead and gone well before any of this happens .... :emoticon-0101-sadsm
     
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  20. ......loading......

    ......loading...... Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what you think racism is. The working class have more to fear than the middle classes.

    My experience works like this. Working class people see more impact from immigration than the middle classes. For example, you live in Portswood. One year your neighbours are English working class folk like yourself. The next year the gradually become students. This annoys you as they are loud and obnoxious. The house prices drop. The area fills with a sudden wave of Polish people. They are noisy, drink a lot and don't seem much different to the students. They also work in labouring like you do. They work hard and they work long hours. They are happy to undercut you as they are young and have no commitments. In the news you hear someone saying there is plenty of work and British people are just lazy. You are told the economy is better off. But you are not the economy. You are working class and suddenly your area and your trade are different. The change has made your life worse.

    Population shift of 10% in 5 years in Southampton is largely unnoticed by the middle class in their suburbs which poles cannot afford. They sneer at the racist poor for not noticing how good the poles are as a polish plumber fixes their leaking tap for a quarter what the English guy used to charge. How nice to be not racist.

    But actually the working class man who resents immigration, in my experience, is more likely to have a black mate, an Asian mate and a polish mate. More likely to actually mix and accept people. But Denise in Highfield whose friends are all white but signs up to support Palestine is of course less racist...
     
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