Off Topic Migrant crisis

[Ubedizzy2]

One down, with a £3,000 bribe of tax-payers' money in his back pocket.
The bloke didn't even arrive on a small boat across the Channel

If the Government offered any random group of penniless British people £3,000 each to get on a plane to Rwanda a lot of them would take it.
Rishi Sunak is embarrassing himself.
What a disappointment his father-in-law must think he is.

Pretty embarrassing really. No wonder the government weren’t crowing about it.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

Children are never to blame, but apart from the girl dying, this is probably a very typical story.

Leave Iraq, travel through a number of perfectly safe countries, give Asylum a whirl in Belgium, get rejected. Travel through some more perfectly safe countries. Give Asylum a whirl in Sweden, get rejected. Travel through some more perfectly safe countries.

Hey, we know, let’s give Britain a whirl. We’ve heard that they give out free benefits, free school places for our three children, free NHS care so we can have some more, free accommodation because we’ve got kids and because I’m a construction worker, I can get cash in hand work and pay no income tax or National Insurance.

It’s not my fault that that’ll drive down wages for the local people meaning that they can’t afford a mortgage or to pay rent, nor that their council services will get worse because we’re taking without giving and helping to swamp them.

Poor me. I have no choice. Boo bloody hoo.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68930088

 

[lardiman]

I'm sad to have to say this, but I assume that grieving father was willing and trying to get his little daughter onto a small boat.
As far as I'm concerned he is an accessory to her unlawful killing.

Guilt should torture him for the rest of his life.
That is harsh, but just.
If he chose to put her life in danger rather than try to help her build a better future where she was, or anywhere else than in that boat, then her death is on him. He failed to protect her and put her life first, as any parent should do.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

I'm sad to have to say this, but I assume that grieving father was willing and trying to get his little daughter onto a small boat.
As far as I'm concerned he is an accessory to her unlawful killing.

Guilt should torture him for the rest of his life.
That is harsh, but just.
If he chose to put her life in danger rather than try to help her build a better future where she was, or anywhere else than in that boat, then her death is on him. He failed to protect her and put her life first, as any parent should do.

Yes, it was their fourth attempt to board a small boat apparently. There is no war in Iraq now and Europe cannot take in everyone from outside it’s borders just because they claim, without any evidence, that they’ve been ‘threatened’.

 

[lardiman]

There is something very wrong going on regarding this story.
I have just heard on the BBC News at 6 that the little girl who died and her whole family were going to be deported to Iraq by the EU.
How can the European Union deport a child to a Country she has never been to?

This girl was born within the boundary of the EU.
That must surely make her an EU citizen.
Not her parents, if they were born in Iraq.
But how can the EU deny citizenship to anybody born within their borders?

If it is true that the EU was about to send this little girl and her siblings to Iraq, then they are already the monsters that I said we would all become.
They make Rishi Sunak look like an angel of mercy.

I take back everything I said about that poor girl's father in my earlier post today.
He had no choice. Risk his child's life to get her to the UK, or surrender her to who knows what dreadful fate in Iraq.
A Country now run by a patchwork of tribal warlords, mad mullahs and gangsters, some of them ex-ISIS.
That is a choice no parent should ever face.
Shame on the European Union.
And if their Court of Human Rights allows deportations of European children to Countries like Iraq, then shame on that Court as well.

Incredibly, I now find I must agree again with those who want the UK to withdraw from the ECHR.
Our standards have not plunged as low as theirs.
Their policy disgusts me.

But also I can no longer support the Reform UK idea of towing boats back to France.
Not if it means children born within the EU are going to be deported.
And not even to Rwanda.
Deported to the evil, corrupt and anarchic regions that their parents fled from.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

There is something very wrong going on regarding this story.
I have just heard on the BBC News at 6 that the little girl who died and her whole family were going to be deported to Iraq by the EU.
How can the European Union deport a child to a Country she has never been to?

This girl was born within the boundary of the EU.
That must surely make her an EU citizen.
Not her parents, if they were born in Iraq.
But how can the EU deny citizenship to anybody born within their borders?

If it is true that the EU was about to send this little girl and her siblings to Iraq, then they are already the monsters that I said we would all become.
They make Rishi Sunak look like an angel of mercy.

I take back everything I said about that poor girl's father in my earlier post today.
He had no choice. Risk his child's life to get her to the UK, or surrender her to who knows what dreadful fate in Iraq.
A Country now run by a patchwork of tribal warlords, mad mullahs and gangsters, some of them ex-ISIS.
That is a choice no parent should ever face.
Shame on the European Union.
And if their Court of Human Rights allows deportations of European children to Countries like Iraq, then shame on that Court as well.

Incredibly, I now find I must agree again with those who want the UK to withdraw from the ECHR.
Our standards have not plunged as low as theirs.
Their policy disgusts me.

But also I can no longer support the Reform UK idea of towing boats back to France.
Not if it means children born within the EU are going to be deported.
And not even to Rwanda.
Deported to the evil, corrupt and anarchic regions that their parents fled from.

After drifting to port yesterday you have now come about.

Think about it.

On your logic all you have to do is flee your home country and enter the EU as an illegal migrant. Then fornicate with anyone who’s willing, produce a sprog and hey presto, you can stay in the EU forever.

Can you not see what that will lead to ?

This is just the sort of decision that you need to make to deal with this issue. The more you give, the more they’ll take and the more will come. For goodness sake, until we toughen up we’ll never solve this problem.

 

[lardiman]

One of the things that is very wrong with this particular case is that we do not have all the facts.
Not even close I suspect.

That was the reason for my harsh judgment in my earlier post today.
If that young girl could simply stay in France and be brought up there, of course it was gross insanity to risk her life on that boat.
It beggared belief that a parent could do that.

But then it is revealed that the little girl was not going to be allowed to be raised in a safe Country within the EU.
She was going to be deported to a Country she has never been to.
There to suffer an unknown fate in a region torn apart by tribal conflicts and Iranian backed terrorists.

And her Father knows that Country far, far better than any of us do.
Better than any immigration official does as well.
In that light, I can completely understand why he put his child in that boat.

But the issue is so emotive (or at least I think it should be) that not having all the facts makes it impossible to make any sense of.
Chances are there is still a whole lot we don't know. And may never know.
All I know is that poor little girl is dead.

I won't comment further on this particular tragedy again, for the reasons I've outlined in this post.
I don't want to risk making the same shameful misjudgement of a grieving man a second time.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

One of the things that is very wrong with this particular case is that we do not have all the facts.
Not even close I suspect.

That was the reason for my harsh judgment in my earlier post today.
If that young girl could simply stay in France and be brought up there, of course it was gross insanity to risk her life on that boat.
It beggared belief that a parent could do that.

But then it is revealed that the little girl was not going to be allowed to be raised in a safe Country within the EU.
She was going to be deported to a Country she has never been to.
There to suffer an unknown fate in a region torn apart by tribal conflicts and Iranian backed terrorists.

And her Father knows that Country far, far better than any of us do.
Better than any immigration official does as well.
In that light, I can completely understand why he put his child in that boat.

But the issue is so emotive (or at least I think it should be) that not having all the facts makes it impossible to make any sense of.
Chances are there is still a whole lot we don't know. And may never know.
All I know is that poor little girl is dead.

I won't comment further on this particular tragedy again, for the reasons I've outlined in this post.
I don't want to risk making the same shameful misjudgement of a grieving man a second time.

Why was it shameful ? It wasn’t. He sired that child after entering the EU illegally, knowing full well that he had no right to stay. It doesn’t take a cynic to work out why that might be. He would have made exactly the same argument had he got to the UK and would have had exactly the same no right to stay here, but if we can’t send them back we would have been lumbered with another 5 illegal immigrants, draining our society, having paid nothing in and with no skills that we actually need.

And that would be repeated tens, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, millions of times more if we don’t take a stand now.

You have to look at the bigger picture, not just at any one individual.

 

[lardiman]

I'm well aware of the bigger picture.

In order to take a stand, this Country will begin deporting illegal migrants.
That process will become just part of everyday life.

In time asylum seekers will not be allowed to mix with the general population at all, as many will try to disappear.
All asylum seekers will be detained, and most will be deported.
Out of sight and out of mind.

Once the flow of asylum seekers dries up, the system in place to deal with them (dozens of detention camps, thousands of security and logistical staff and the deportation machine) will need a new supply of people to process.
Everyone involved is not just going to switch off the lights, lock the doors and go find other jobs.
Attention will be turned to those deemed undesirable within society.
Rough sleepers. Junkies. Petty criminals. Anybody living off the grid.

And when they have been disposed of, attention will turn to people with undesirable political views.
Trouble makers. People who oppose the Government. Religious 'extremists'.
People with unpopular gender or sexual orientation issues.
Then people who cannot work. Mentally ill folk. People with disabilities.
Anybody our society will be 'better off' without.

Each step along this road will inevitably lead to the next step.
It will not be possible to stop.
And this will happen all over Europe.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

I'm well aware of the bigger picture.

In order to take a stand, this Country will begin deporting illegal migrants.
That process will become just part of everyday life.

In time asylum seekers will not be allowed to mix with the general population at all, as many will try to disappear.
All asylum seekers will be detained, and most will be deported.
Out of sight and out of mind.

Once the flow of asylum seekers dries up, the system in place to deal with them (dozens of detention camps, thousands of security and logistical staff and the deportation machine) will need a new supply of people to process.
Everyone involved is not just going to switch off the lights, lock the doors and go find other jobs.
Attention will be turned to those deemed undesirable within society.
Rough sleepers. Junkies. Petty criminals. Anybody living off the grid.

And when they have been disposed of, attention will turn to people with undesirable political views.
Trouble makers. People who oppose the Government. Religious 'extremists'.
People with unpopular gender or sexual orientation issues.
Then people who cannot work. Mentally ill folk. People with disabilities.
Anybody our society will be 'better off' without.

Each step along this road will inevitably lead to the next step.
It will not be possible to stop.
And this will happen all over Europe.

It won’t.

However you are entitled to believe that it will, so let’s agree to disagree on that (after all, neither of us can actually see into the future).

But instead I’ll ask, what would you do with these illegal immigrants now ?

 

[lardiman]

I honestly don't know.

Now that I know the EU deports children born in its member states to Countries that make Rwanda look like a picnic, I'm out of ideas.
It feels as if whatever we do now, it will make no difference.

All I can see right now is that the poor little girl who drowned in the Channel would have been safer deported to Rwanda than she would have been after being deported to Iraq.
And if the ECHR is content with that, then I have lost all faith in it.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

Sorry to go on. This feels a bit like a two horse race. But the fact is we have to do something. We can’t just sit back and say we don’t know what to do and let it happen just because there’s no very easy option.

This family applied 14 times for asylum and were rejected each time. They don’t have any right to live in another country apart from Iraq.

Why are you so opposed to them going back to Iraq ? Basra to be precise. It is a city of 1.7 million people, has a thriving construction industry, schools, doctors etc.,has the largest sports stadium in the country which hosts the national team, it has numerous large ports from which large amounts of exports depart, it is surrounded by fertile land, meaning food production is good. It is not an anarchic wasteland where everyone is raped and murdered. The evidence for this family has been looked at 14 times and it’s been decided that they are able to return to Basra.

If you disagree with that, then are you happy for the other 1.7 million residents to join us here in the UK ?

As said before, entering a foreign country illegally and fathering a child in that country DOES NOT give you a right of residence in that country. That would just provide an easy route to citizenship for tens of millions of non-native people to this country or others in the EU.

 

[lardiman]

I have never said the girl's father should be granted citizenship or asylum simply because his daughter was born in the EU.
If the EU ruled that he should be deported back to Iraq then so be it.

But that child could not help where she was born.
She was innocent of any wrongdoing.
How can she be punished merely for her birth.

This is where the total lack of Humanity comes in.
And the opening of a door that, once stepped through, will never be closed.
Iraq is not a safe Country.
Especially for a seven year old child who may have Iraqi heritage, but has never known anything except growing up in Western Europe.

• To separate her from her parents and effectively make her an orphan in the care of the EU would be excessively cruel. But at least she would be alive and safe.

• To simply wash their hands of her - to send her and her siblings to an unsafe Country she has never been to - a far more unsafe place than Rwanda - is even more cruel, and would much more likely lead to her premature death.

Condemning an innocent child to likely suffer and die in an unsafe Country is something I did not believe the EU capable of.
To me that is far more repugnant than any of the trivial politics that annoyed the UK electorate enough to vote for Brexit.
It is a gross Human rights violation.
And I am staggered that the European Court of Human Rights would allow it.
To me it stinks of the ECHR saying that Human rights only exist for people who are ethnically European.

The door they have opened is the deportation of a person born within EU borders.
As far as I know that would never happen to a child born within the borders of the UK.
You might argue that it should.
But it sets a precedent for the future. It's a step along the path to ethnic cleansing, and worse.
To a time where anyone the State finds undesirable can be deported, for any reason it chooses.


And this time I'll keep to my previous intention not to comment further on this particular tragic case.
Will leave the last word on it between the two of us to you, if you wish to add anything more.
I'm sure news and events in the coming days will soon highlight other aspects of the wider issue that is thread is dedicated to.
Then I'll add my thoughts on them if I have a mind to.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

I think we’ve both said our piece on that particular family, so I’ll leave you with the last word on them.

So, if Iraq is an unsafe country, what should we do about the tens of thousands of illegal immigrant Iraqi’s in the UK already and the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands who could potentially arrive here from that unsafe country.

Presumably we shouldn’t send them back to Iraq because it’s unsafe, we shouldn’t send them to Rwanda, because that’s an unsafe country also, so what should we do with them all once they’ve reached Kent ?

 

[lardiman]

Rwanda is less unsafe than Iraq in my opinion.

At least for anyone who did not originally flee from that region of Africa.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

Rwanda is less unsafe than Iraq in my opinion.

At least for anyone who did not originally flee from that region of Africa.

Doesn’t answer the question though.

And to help to clarify the numbers - we’re talking about 15,000 illegal Iraqi immigrants arriving by small boat across the channel since 2020.

And around 85% of those were male. So it seems the male arrivals are much less worried about how unsafe Iraq is for their wives, girlfriends, mothers and daughters than you are.

What should we do with those 12,750 illegal immigrant males and 2,250 illegal immigrant females now ?

 

[Ponders Revisited]

Just don't have kids in a country you have no right to be in. That way you won't have to watch them die when you risk crossing the channel in a dinghy. Simple.

 

[lardiman]

Just don't have kids in a country you have no right to be in. That way you won't have to watch them die when you risk crossing the channel in a dinghy. Simple.

Yes, but in reality it happens.

 

[Ubedizzy2]

Yes, but in reality it happens.

Only if you choose to make it happen.

So you then have to live with your choices and the consequences that follow, so you have to stop blaming someone else and take responsibility for your own actions.

 

[lardiman]

That applies to many things.
People shouldn't have children if they cannot afford to raise them. But many do.

I don't see the value in simply saying people shouldn't do something.
Dictators shouldn't persecute their own people.
If they didn't there would be much fewer people seeking asylum than there are now.
Aren't we just blaming someone else?