Off Topic Migrant crisis

[Ubedizzy]

No, not that one, the other one.

Fed up with the Tories having broken their promise (surely not) regarding taking back control of our borders, which pretty much won the referendum and the last general election, Nigel FARAGE is seriously considering returning to politics to highlight the issue and hold the government to account.

He has financial backing to start another new party and will directly challenge the government on this single issue. Now, say what you like about Nigel, but there is no denying that he is effective. I don’t believe that in modern times there has been a single individual who achieved what he did - in effect changing government policy, and altering the course of an entire nation. Like him or loathe him, agree or disagree with Brex*it, the Tories probably fear him more than Sir Keir.

25,000 known arrivals by boat across the channel so far this year and some days nearly 1,000 per day. That’s not immigration - it’s a bloody invasion.

So come on Boris and Priti, what exactly are you going to do to stop this tide of human misery washing up on our shores.

 

[The Penguin]

It's deceitful to say that he can solve the problem. It's only going to get worse when the mass migrations start due to climate change. I wish I could see an answer, but Nigel doesn't fool me, and it's a cruel deception to tell people what they want to hear. This situation was predicted decades ago.

 

[lardiman]

There is no great will to stem this tide of migrants, because mostly they don't end up living in leafy shires where the wealthy and powerful reside.
They end up in modern day urban slums. They become part of the mass of poor folk who are pretty much off the grid now in the UK.

By the time these people reach the coast of France it's far too late to stop them, unless we are willing to start sinking boats and having bodies wash up on our beaches. I don't think the British people will tolerate that. Neither will the rest of the free World.

We have to smash the traffickers and shut down the routes from North Africa and the middle/far East.
Not pussyfoot around.
Root these people out and neutralise them, with military raids if necessary, drone strikes, assassination teams. Israeli style.
And while we're at it we can get our special ops troops to smash the networks that bring in drugs and all other contraband as well.

Make life impossible for the Organised Criminals who are making billions out of asylum seeking and economic migration.
Smash the mafias in the banana republics.
Make it clear to them that if you help to smuggle people towards the UK you will be erased.
Make the industry one that nobody wants to work in anymore.

There will be a terrorist backlash for sure. But we are a prime terror target anyway.
So lets start dishing out some terror to these heartless monsters across the world who profit from misery.

 

[Ubedizzy]

It's deceitful to say that he can solve the problem. It's only going to get worse when the mass migrations start due to climate change. I wish I could see an answer, but Nigel doesn't fool me, and it's a cruel deception to tell people what they want to hear. This situation was predicted decades ago.

Yes, I think this is nothing to do with climate change migration at the moment. That’s still to come. It’s primarily about refugees from war, plus opportunistic economic migration. The answer must be to make the UK unattractive to people and then they won’t want to come here. But you also need to get that message across and past the lies they are fed by the traffickers. And besides the conditions many of them come from are so bad, that virtually nothing we can do will dissuade them. Without a change in the EU and France in particular it isn’t an easy problem to solve.

Offshore processing in dire conditions would be a start, but where do you do that ? And how long would it be before any facilities were full. It’s a depressing outlook.

 

[The Penguin]

No denying that Farage is a very talented man, but he uses his considerable talents in a fraudulent way, by playing on people's fears, and presenting himself as the answer. He ain't.
Anyone who turns his back on Beethoven's Ode to Joy is an ignorant philistine.

 

[Ubedizzy]

Come on Nigel, get that party up and running and shame the UK and French governments into doing something effective to stop this.

Anyone who thinks that climate change is the biggest threat to us is wrong in my opinion. This uncontrolled movement of people primarily for economic reasons will bring this country to its knees and end our culture and way of life long before climate change will.

Looking at C4 news pictures tonight is appalling. These people have no allegiance to this country. Many of them despise this country. They do not hold the same values or ideals as most people in this country. They do not wish to integrate in this country. They just want all the benefits of living in this country.

We need to stop this NOW.

Oh and apparently according to the mayor of Calais the latest tragedy is the fault of Boris Johnson and Priti Patel.

Fuc*k Macron - it’s time to boycott ALL French products until they stop people crossing the Channel at their end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-59406632

 

[lardiman]

This latest tragedy is the fault of whoever put those 50 people in that boat and set it on its way.
And nobody else.
Not even the Mayor of Calais, despite her obviously being a horse's arse.

Every member nation of the EU is a safe country for asylum seekers.
They are protected from persecution and abuse by the Human Rights laws of the EU.
The only reason some people wish to come to the UK specifically is that they have been told they will have a better material quality of life here.
It's illegal economic migration. Plain and simple.
Nothing to do with asylum seeking.

I would be all for the UK offering financial and logistical support for EU nations to look after asylum seekers.
And I would have no problem with the UK agreeing to allow some asylum seekers in from the EU, in an organised and vetted manner (vetting for criminals and terrorists). It is morally right that the UK helps other safe regions (like the EU) to look after refugees.

But people crossing the channel in tiny, unseaworthy boats organised by the lowest of the low scumbag people traffickers is absolutely unacceptable.
A hundred times the present effort should be going in from both the UK and France to stamp it out.

Show these traffickers no mercy. Destroy their criminal networks. Locate and freeze their assets. Put their bankers out of business.
Use foreign aid money to help smash the trafficking industry at source, in the countries these people are fleeing from, and the many countries they travel through before they reach EU borders.
Nobody is doing these poor people a favour.
They hand over their life savings to the traffickers, who won't lift a finger to help them unless they've bled them dry and often chained them in debt.

 

[Ubedizzy]

This latest tragedy is the fault of whoever put those 50 people in that boat and set it on its way.
And nobody else.
Not even the Mayor of Calais, despite her obviously being a horse's arse.

Every member nation of the EU is a safe country for asylum seekers.
They are protected from persecution and abuse by the Human Rights laws of the EU.
The only reason some people wish to come to the UK specifically is that they have been told they will have a better material quality of life here.
It's illegal economic migration. Plain and simple.
Nothing to do with asylum seeking.

I would be all for the UK offering financial and logistical support for EU nations to look after asylum seekers.
And I would have no problem with the UK agreeing to allow some asylum seekers in from the EU, in an organised and vetted manner (vetting for criminals and terrorists). It is morally right that the UK helps other safe regions (like the EU) to look after refugees.

But people crossing the channel in tiny, unseaworthy boats organised by the lowest of the low scumbag people traffickers is absolutely unacceptable.
A hundred times the present effort should be going in from both the UK and France to stamp it out.

Show these traffickers no mercy. Destroy their criminal networks. Locate and freeze their assets. Put their bankers out of business.
Use foreign aid money to help smash the trafficking industry at source, in the countries these people are fleeing from.
Nobody is doing these poor people a favour.
They hand over their life savings to the traffickers, who won't lift a finger to help them unless they've bled them dry and often chained them in debt.

I do agree with all that, but there is also blame on the governments within the EU and the illegal immigrants themselves.

We are now told that virtually all the boats being used are being bought in Germany and taken into France and that almost 100% of the illegal immigrants have travelled from Belgium, often en-mass in mini-buses.

And the illegal immigrants themselves (apart from the children) must know it is illegal and they have no right to be in the UK, which is why they don’t apply via legal methods. They are also criminals because it is still a criminal offence to attempt to enter the UK illegally. They are also victims, but equally, without them the trade wouldn’t exist in the first place.

 

[lardiman]

What's happening is change.
We cannot stop it.
All we can do is try to minimise the suffering of people as much as possible.

Sorry Mr Farage, but the UK that we grew up in, the way things were, cannot be preserved.
That is the hard fact, backed up by centuries of history.

Look at the UK 100 years ago.
We had the Empire.
The Rise of Communisim, then Fascism.
Terrible poverty among the poor.
Grinding poverty that makes our poverty today pale by comparison.
Polish, Jewish and other immigrants gathered together in penniless ghettos
Fear of Revolution.
Mechanised warfare slaughtering young soldiers.
No pensions, no NHS, no social support.
Dreadful pollution everywhere.
Racism and Sexism as pillars of our society.
And many people used to fear losing that UK.

In 100 years time the UK will be unrecognisable to us.
We cannot deny the future.
We must find ways to accomodate it.

 

[The Penguin]

I don't pretend to have the answer to the refugee crisis, but I do know that Nigel doesn't have the answer either. He probably welcomes it as a chance to resurrect his doomed political career, which ended with the hard Brexit,- he has been advertising his services recently to to birthday greetings and stuff like that.

 

[lardiman]

There is always a tidal drag against change here in the UK that creates great tensions.

Usually this drag is instigated from the very top - (I'm no fan of Meghan, but she and Dodi are/were nowhere near white enough to be accepted into our Royal Family).
The richest and most powerful, who can insulate and gate themselves off, and hang on to their ermine & wig wearing traditions.
They mobilise and motivate the upper middle classes to act as a big fat firewall against the great unwashed tide of foreigners.

The working classes and the poor are left to take it squarely on the chin of course.
But who was it who stood defiantly against Mosley and his black shirts?
Poor East End folk, of every colour and creed.

The traffickers must be brought to account. They are vile scum.
But even breaking every trafficking ring will not stop people coming.
We should create robust systems for vetting and integrating people who really need help.
And at the same time all Free Nations should work together over the next 50 years or so, to make Somalia and Syria and Afghanistan and all those kinds of places better countries. Countries that people no longer wish to flee from.

 

[Ubedizzy]

OK, so firstly I’ve amended the thread title and removed Nigel from it. When I posted it originally it was prior to yesterday’s events and more as a humorous aside between NA and NF, but obviously humour is no longer appropriate after yesterday’s events and talking about NF is a distraction. If it is more appropriate for this to be now merged with the general news and current affairs thread then that’s understandable.

I for one do not accept that this situation is set in stone and can’t be dealt with. There are solutions, but at present there is no will amongst the governments of the world and particularly the EU to deal with this. One main problem is the free movement of people within the EU. I doubt that many of those crossing the channel yesterday would have been successful nor indeed would have attempted to cross Europe in the first place if they knew that they had to negotiate immigration borders at each country they entered along the route. Having hard borders at each country would cut out maybe 80/90% of the people making it to the French coast and then it would be significantly easier to patrol the coast and stop the launches in the first place. OK some very few numbers would still get through, but it would end the trade very quickly as there would be no profit for the traffickers. That is the easiest way to end this. Not by trying to catch the traffickers or turn boats back at sea, but by ending their supply of money. But the EU will not end free movement because they would then not have the cheap labour that their leaders and rich businessmen want.

And if we don’t end this trade then this country is finished in its current civilised state.

I agree with Lardi in his list of things that have changed in the last 100 years - but the changes were for the better, thank God.
The next 100 years will also bring change, no doubt, but at the moment those changes are all going to be for the worse. You cannot just import endless young men from other cultures (and note the boats are still 90% full of young, fit men) who have no allegiance to this country, no respect for its values, in many cases a hatred for our way of life or at the very least a complete lack of will to preserve it, no desire to integrate - instead a desire to segregate into their own cultural groups and expect social cohesion. Where are these young men’s parents, their wives, their children ? - mostly left behind to their fate. Is this the type of characters and values we want coming to this country ?

If we don’t get a grip of this very soon, we will have civil disorder on a scale never seen before in this country and I fear, the breakdown of law and order as a result. And it will come far more quickly than the problems of climate change.

People in this country need to wake up to what is happening - this is an invasion with no end in sight, but unlike previous invasion attempts, we are sleepwalking into allow it to happen.

 

[lardiman]

There will be a great deal of resentment and some civil disorder, for sure.
The Charities cannot be serious when they say we should all go woke and happy-clap while uncounted waves of migrants use up resources and bring all their politics and different cultural values into every urban community.

But nothing short of an extreme right-wing Government willing to use lethal force on a massive scale is going to stop people coming to the UK.
That would lead to Britain becoming a pariah State, shunned and sanctioned against by most of the world, rather like Iran or Belarus.
We could forget trade deals or any more American nuclear weapons.
There would be no food in the shops and the Economy would be destroyed.

What we need to do is plan to accommodate the influx of migrants, and turn it to our advantage.
That means all kinds of radical measures. Massive home and community building projects - which we should be doing anyway.
New towns. New schools geared to integration.
A total ban on faith schools. A totally integrated, totally inclusive and totally enforced education system teaching children to respect each other.
No ethnic ghettos. The dismantling of the black economy - no more people living off the grid, paid in cash or used as virtual slave labour by gang masters.
No more sweat shop districts. No more dormitory sheds in suburban gardens.
No more people buying 100 bottles of milk and 50 loaves of bread at the supermarket at 6am.

We need nothing short of a Social Revolution. The biggest for 200 years.
Or we can just slip back into race riots and bigotry for a few decades, and no long term solutions.

 

[Ubedizzy]

There will be a great deal of resentment and some civil disorder, for sure.
The Charities cannot be serious when they say we should all go woke and happy-clap while uncounted waves of migrants use up resources and bring all their politics and different cultural values into every urban community.

But nothing short of an extreme right-wing Government willing to use lethal force on a massive scale is going to stop people coming to the UK.
That would lead to Britain becoming a pariah State, shunned and sanctioned against by most of the world, rather like Iran or Belarus.
We could forget trade deals or any more American nuclear weapons.
There would be no food in the shops and the Economy would be destroyed.

What we need to do is plan to accommodate the influx of migrants, and turn it to our advantage.
That means all kinds of radical measures. Massive home and community building projects - which we should be doing anyway.
New towns. New schools geared to integration.
A total ban on faith schools. A totally integrated, totally inclusive and totally enforced education system teaching children to respect each other.
No ethnic ghettos. The dismantling of the black economy - no more people living off the grid, paid in cash or used as virtual slave labour by gang masters.
No more sweat shop districts. No more dormitory sheds in suburban gardens.
No more people buying 100 bottles of milk and 50 loaves of bread at the supermarket at 6am.

We need nothing short of a Social Revolution. The biggest for 200 years.
Or we can just slip back into race riots and bigotry for a few decades, and no long term solutions.

I cannot disagree more.

The last thing we need is more people, more houses, more schools, more towns. The country is already over-populated. People living on top of each other without room to breathe and relax is guaranteed to cause social problems, crime and civil disorder. And that’s even if they were all from the same culture, wanted to integrate and have the same values, which mostly the illegal immigrants don’t.

We can’t build our way out of this problem because there is no end to the flow. Even if we build enough infrastructure for every migrant waiting in France to cross the channel today, it won’t work because next year there will be twice as many waiting again. The more they think they can have a better life here the more will come - it will be literally endless and at some point we will have to do something about the flow rather than trying to accommodate those that make it here. That time is now.

It takes years if not decades to build the sort of infrastructure that we currently already lack and by the time you build it it will already be way to little for the people that have arrived in the meantime.

The only answer is to stop the flow of people across the globe and that IS achievable with proper border controls in each country. If these people know that their chances of a new life in Europe are virtually nil, then they won’t pay traffickers to try to get them here and will have to remain and try to reform their own countries instead.

 

[Ubedizzy]

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Just before I enter into the debate and give some more alternate facts, can I just check……

Is this the same Lord Kerr who spent years trying to overturn the result of the biggest democratic vote this country has ever held and who even after we triggered Article 50 (which he helped design), insisted that we were wrong and should rescind the democratic decision to trigger it. In other words the same Lord Kerr that only believes in democracy if the result goes the way he wants it to ?

Is this the same Lord Kerr that lives in such remote inherited luxury that neither he nor his family will ever be affected by any of the downsides of unlimited immigration ? Our lack of housing, our overcrowded roads, our overstretched NHS, street crime. Is this the same Lord Kerr ?

Is this the same Lord Kerr who described me and my family (because we are native British) as “bloody stupid”. Me and my family, who have fought in wars to protect this country, who have worked hard all our lives to improve ourselves and to make sure we don’t have to rely on others for handouts. Me and my family, who have had members killed whilst protecting this country. Did he call us “Bloody Stupid” ? Is it the same Lord Kerr ?

I look forward to the answers.

 

[Butterfield]

Just before I enter into the debate and give some more alternate facts, can I just check……

Is this the same Lord Kerr who spent years trying to overturn the result of the biggest democratic vote this country has ever held and who even after we triggered Article 50 (which he helped design), insisted that we were wrong and should rescind the democratic decision to trigger it. In other words the same Lord Kerr that only believes in democracy if the result goes the way he wants it to ?

Is this the same Lord Kerr that lives in such remote inherited luxury that neither he nor his family will ever be affected by any of the downsides of unlimited immigration ? Our lack of housing, our overcrowded roads, our overstretched NHS, street crime. Is this the same Lord Kerr ?

Is this the same Lord Kerr who described me and my family (because we are native British) as “bloody stupid”. Me and my family, who have fought in wars to protect this country, who have worked hard all our lives to improve ourselves and to make sure we don’t have to rely on others for handouts. Me and my family, who have had members killed whilst protecting this country. Did he call us “Bloody Stupid” ? Is it the same Lord Kerr ?

I look forward to the answers.

I shouldn’t have posted in this thread.

 

[Ubedizzy]

I shouldn’t have posted in this thread.

No, that’s not true at all, you have every right.

I’m always happy to debate on here as I find that despite sometimes widely differing views, no-one ever gets personal or uses insults. I think if that remains then everyone should feel free to give their opinions.

 

[lardiman]

@Butterfield just because you posted something Lord Kerr has said, that does not link you to everything else he has ever said, or the opinions that other members here may have of him.

I don't believe the reply you received was a personal attack against you.
That's not the way we do things on this forum.

Please everyone (and that includes me), be as careful as we can when giving your opinions on very sensitive subjects like this, so as not to be misunderstood and give offence when none was intended.

 

[Ubedizzy]

@Butterfield just because you posted something Lord Kerr has said, that does not link you to everything else he has ever said, or the opinions that other members here may have of him.

I don't believe the reply you received was a personal attack against you.
That's not the way we do things on this forum.

Please everyone (and that includes me), be as careful as you can when giving your opinions on very sensitive subjects like this, so as not to be misunderstood and give offence when none was intended.

And to be absolutely clear - my disagreement and ok, annoyance, is with Lord Kerr and no one else. And even then I’m happy for him to have his opinion but I will strongly, verbally argue against him. In this case primarily because he is out of touch with ordinary people like me and he is completely unaffected by the decisions he is trying to impose on people that are adversely affected by them.

 

[The Penguin]

Boris is a national embarrassment and the sooner his party dumps him the better. France has taken many more migrants than we have, and his decision to go public on Twitter is yet another blunder, especially annoying when posted next to his smirking visage. To think that our great country is reduced to having a buffoon as our leader.