Off Topic Migrant crisis
- Thread starter Ubedizzy
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One of our ancient principles of justice is that a person is not a criminal until they have been found guilty after a fair trial.
Other Nations do things a little differently, but in every country where democracy is well established and Human rights have been respected for generations or centuries, people accused of criminal activity have the right to defend themselves and be judged by some kind of equitable process.
It is only totalitarian dictators who decide by decree that entire groups of people within the country they rule are criminals.
Thus allowing those so labelled to be persecuted, and ultimately disposed of.
Abandoning our principle of a fair trial for the accused, and never declaring that entire groups of people can be declared criminals, is not the way to solve the illegal immigration problem.
It might seem a step in the right direction to tackle a problem that only ever seems to get worse.
But in reality it is only a step along the road from a free and democratic society, to a dictatorship.
This is why principles like democracy and equality and respect for Human rights are only valued by a shrinking minority of Nations around the World.
Because they cannot be abandoned to accommodate the geopolitical pressures of the day.
They do not offer a 'quick fix' in the way oppression seems to.
Dictatorships in the regions that millions of helpless civilians are fleeing from have no principles.
Those regimes will happily use intimidation, persecution, torture and mass murder to cement their personal power and the rewards that come from it. They will also use their stolen wealth to buy influence from the weak-willed and greedy among organisations that are supposed to respect equality and freedom from oppression. Buying the entire sport of Golf, and buying Football Clubs and FIFA officials being just two examples.
What Suella Braverman can't see it that it will not be illegal migrants who turn this country into a realm of anarchy and lawlessness ruled by force.
It will be the fear of those illegal migrants which she promotes.
Frankly I was staggered to hear her declaring that being a woman or a gay person in a country where those people are persecuted and denied freedoms simply because of their gender/orientation is not enough to make that woman or gay person a legitimate refugee if they flee that persecution.
That is tantamount to saying that as far as the UK is concerned other countries can abuse women and minorities as much as they like, and we simply don't care.
An unbelievable attitude.
And one that totally disrespects the values of a country where she herself, a woman of colour and a daughter of immigrants, rightly had the opportunity to rise to become one of its most powerful politicians. The very values that she undermines with her inflammatory language.
Other Nations do things a little differently, but in every country where democracy is well established and Human rights have been respected for generations or centuries, people accused of criminal activity have the right to defend themselves and be judged by some kind of equitable process.
It is only totalitarian dictators who decide by decree that entire groups of people within the country they rule are criminals.
Thus allowing those so labelled to be persecuted, and ultimately disposed of.
Abandoning our principle of a fair trial for the accused, and never declaring that entire groups of people can be declared criminals, is not the way to solve the illegal immigration problem.
It might seem a step in the right direction to tackle a problem that only ever seems to get worse.
But in reality it is only a step along the road from a free and democratic society, to a dictatorship.
This is why principles like democracy and equality and respect for Human rights are only valued by a shrinking minority of Nations around the World.
Because they cannot be abandoned to accommodate the geopolitical pressures of the day.
They do not offer a 'quick fix' in the way oppression seems to.
Dictatorships in the regions that millions of helpless civilians are fleeing from have no principles.
Those regimes will happily use intimidation, persecution, torture and mass murder to cement their personal power and the rewards that come from it. They will also use their stolen wealth to buy influence from the weak-willed and greedy among organisations that are supposed to respect equality and freedom from oppression. Buying the entire sport of Golf, and buying Football Clubs and FIFA officials being just two examples.
What Suella Braverman can't see it that it will not be illegal migrants who turn this country into a realm of anarchy and lawlessness ruled by force.
It will be the fear of those illegal migrants which she promotes.
Frankly I was staggered to hear her declaring that being a woman or a gay person in a country where those people are persecuted and denied freedoms simply because of their gender/orientation is not enough to make that woman or gay person a legitimate refugee if they flee that persecution.
That is tantamount to saying that as far as the UK is concerned other countries can abuse women and minorities as much as they like, and we simply don't care.
An unbelievable attitude.
And one that totally disrespects the values of a country where she herself, a woman of colour and a daughter of immigrants, rightly had the opportunity to rise to become one of its most powerful politicians. The very values that she undermines with her inflammatory language.
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Apart from her own heritage, her husband is Jewish and she serves under a Hindu Prime Minister, so you have to question her motives for saying that multiculturalism hasn't worked. A leadership bid after the election maybe? She is strong on rhetoric and short on helpful solutions.
Indeed.
Suella's claim that multiculturalism in the UK has failed is the most bizarre thing she's ever said. Self-evidently untrue.
There are serious problems to overcome.
For instance I'm opposed to any practices that work against integration (some extreme faith schools for example where English is not even taught). But multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive. Both have been going on for Centuries.
All very good in theory BUT here’s the problem…..our ancient principal of justice is just that….ancient.
It doesn’t work in practice for the times we live in now and I’ll try to explain why.
Each of the illegal immigrants who arrive in the UK by unregistered boats across the channel, have undoubtedly committed a criminal offence. They are illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers when they arrive and it is an offence under the Immigration Act to enter this country without a legal right to do so, which none of them have as they haven’t applied to enter legally. Therefore they should all be charged with the offence of entering the UK illegally. But they never are. Because it is impractical to do so. Our ancient principal of justice and a fair trial cannot cope with hundreds of new charges of illegal entry each and every day. That system has ground to a halt due to sheer weight of numbers. Therefore you need to forget about that lofty principal. It cannot work in modern times and with the amount of people wanting to come here illegally. It is nothing to do with dictatorship, racism, multiculturalism or anything else. We are simply overwhelmed by the numbers involved. There is no legal system in the world which is able to cope with this flood of people while at the same time sticking to the principals and rules of decades and centuries gone past.
This is not a party political issue either. It’s no use criticising the Tories. NONE of the other main parties have an answer to this either and they will all face the same dilemma if they get into power.
There was a really interesting debate on GB news yesterday, with a senior immigration lawyer plus gay rights activist Peter Tatchell together with host Richard Tice. They ALL agreed that the current system doesn’t work because it is swamped and so it is impossible to examine individual cases fairly. This is often made worse because the individuals arriving this way have usually destroyed all their identity documents and made it impossible to accurately and fairly assess their case. They simply claim that they are persecuted in their homeland for their political views, being gay, family members views etc etc etc. The list is endless.
Because of the numbers, our system can’t cope and in any case even if by some miracle we find they have entered illegally, we can’t deport them back to where they come from, because that needs agreement from those countries and they simply don’t want them back so will never agree.
So it all comes back to the same thing - once they are here there is nothing we can do. The only answer is to stop them arriving in the first place. And that involves sealing our sea borders, with all the problems that will bring. In the short term there will be dramatic scenes in the middle of the channel, deaths and drownings, battles with the French etc etc. But it is the only way to stop this. Nothing else will work. So we either do it or we don’t. If we don’t then the numbers will just continue to increase every year until we have thousands arriving every day and this country just turns into the hell-hole that these people have come from. Everything you’ve worked for, your family, your home, your possessions, your lives, can be taken away from you simply by someone more violent than you or with a bigger gang than you or with better weapons than you.
Is that what anyone wants ?
And I’ll say what I’ve said before - unless you have first hand knowledge of living in a war zone or living in a state of anarchy then you don’t know how bad it is. Trust me, you’d wish that action had been taken earlier to prevent it happening, no matter how unpalatable that action may have appeared at the time.
About 20 years ago I heard an American climatologist being asked what advice he'd give his grandchildren. His answer? "Buy a gun". My advice is don't buy a house too near the sea.
I still think the problem of illegal, or even legal migration, from poor parts of the world to richer parts of the world is a much more urgent and immediate problem than any change in the earth’s climate.
I’m not denying the latter, but I don’t see it as an ‘emergency’ in the same way that others do. And yet there is huge publicity, change and profits being made from climate change. And yet over population - nothing. No one wants to talk about it. I find that very odd and it makes me doubt the real reasons behind the climate change lobby.
But I do see over population of the planet as the biggest threat to our current civilisation. Anarchy and the breakdown of law and order will happen due to this, long before it does due to changes in the earth’s climate. Buy a gun is good advice. The problem, is that the gangs will have more guns and be more ruthless.
The fact is that climate change is already contributing to famine and drought in some parts of the world. It is real enough but is on a slow burner. Accordingly any action to fight climate change will also be on a slow burner. The real reason behind "the climate change lobby" is the huge body of scientific evidence based in painstaking research over a long period of time. So although mass migration is a more immediate problem, it is one that is in theory soluble, whereas over-population and climate change don't appear to have a practical solution unless human nature changes. I'd say over-population is the common factor to the twin problems of migration and climate change. Although the richer countries, which are the highest emitters per capita are seeing reductions in the birthrate.
If we had proper population control, then we could probably solve both the other issues, without the need to set us back 75 years or have the scenes of chaos and death at our international borders and beyond.
But that requires very long term thinking, which sadly loses you votes, so doesn’t happen. Basically the human race, despite all its achievements, is currently too thick to sort this out.
I fear that we have passed our high point in terms of evolution.
It’s about cultural change I’m afraid, so it’s not easy to stop. The UK culture has changed dramatically over the last 40 years or so, but to change it back to 40 years ago would probably take more like 200 years and that isn’t going to happen.Jesus wept
An argument at a bus stop in Croydon ends with a schoolgirl stabbed to death.
For pity's sake, what possesses some mindless young idiots to carry knives and use them with no self control whatsoever?
Glorification of gang violence is endemic now.
Some kids have no respect for life. They wander round thinking they're in a f**king computer game.
The thug who killed that girl should get a whole life term. Even if that means 70 or 80 years.
This horror has to stop.
The breakdown of the family unit
Lack of deterrent
Lack of respect for others
Lack of law enforcement
Lack of prison places
Liberal government
Liberal Judiciary
The internet
Mobile phones
Multiculturalism
Mass Immigration
Greed
Me,me,me philosophy
Realisation about Religion
Over Population
Solve those problems and you might be able to stop this.
No chance whatsoever of that happening as Iong as we have Tory and Labour alternating as the Government.
Rishi is now going to find an alternative 2nd country to take our illegal immigrants knowing full well that before he does so Labour will be in and they will scrap the scheme altogether.
Stop the boats my arse.
More money for the rich if we have a bigger population and lower wages. None of them want to solve this problem.
This country will be effectively lawless in 20 years time.
Nice result for Rwanda though. £140m for doing sod all- they saw us coming.
Here's a member of the party for law and order advocating breaking the law. Has there ever been a more appalling party in power in the UK?
https://x.com/dave43law/status/1724783269248729470?s=20
https://x.com/dave43law/status/1724783269248729470?s=20
Is Lee Anderthal is thick as he seems? I don't think so. The electorate loves a "character", and he's going the right way about retaining his seat at the GE.
Yes. For the so called "Party of Law and Order" they don't mind crossing the line much these days do they
Once they’re here they can’t be sent back. Have to stop them getting here.
It must be possible, with a bit of international cooperation and political will, to stop the supply of actual boats from wherever they are being manufactured. No boats=no people in them.